The hot hatch problem

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blkvzgo

blkvzgo

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GTP_blkvzgo
Unlike most people I actually like the front wheel drive cars, especially hot hatches, but I was always frustrated with their unwillingness to lift-off oversteer in the game. I'm not saying all of the FWD cars in the game should do this, but take the MINI as an exaple - I've seen a lot of videos that clearly show the car lift-off oversteering, while in the game if I want to ''lose'' the tail a little bit I have to throw the car left and right like a maniac or do a scandinavian flick (even that doesn't help most of the time). On the replay I can clearly see the car try to slide, but I get the impression that some force is not letting it, just like it was in GT4 with RWD cars. Any opinions? By the way I use the recommended tyres from the manual (N2s for most hot hatches).
 
Maybe you need to try Pro physics? I don't know much as I don't really try FWD cars apart from the Integra and the Focus ST. Maybe try the Focus as it is an old-school style hatch.
 
DeolTheBeast
Maybe you need to try Pro physics? I don't know much as I don't really try FWD cars apart from the Integra and the Focus ST. Maybe try the Focus as it is an old-school style hatch.
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I am using pro physics and I tried all of the FWD cars, including the Focus ST, and it isn't any different from the others in this aspect.
 
blkvzgo
Unlike most people I actually like the front wheel drive cars, especially hot hatches, but I was always frustrated with their unwillingness to lift-off oversteer in the game. I'm not saying all of the FWD cars in the game should do this, but take the MINI as an exaple - I've seen a lot of videos that clearly show the car lift-off oversteering, while in the game if I want to ''lose'' the tail a little bit I have to throw the car left and right like a maniac or do a scandinavian flick (even that doesn't help most of the time). On the replay I can clearly see the car try to slide, but I get the impression that some force is not letting it, just like it was in GT4 with RWD cars. Any opinions? By the way I use the recommended tyres from the manual (N2s for most hot hatches).
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Hmm is int it hard to overseer a FWD car? The noses are always heavier.. when you go and lift off throttle it should not do much for these cars... maybe more of understeer?

Could you show some links to the videos? would like to see it.
 
NoxNoctis Umbra
Hmm is int it hard to overseer a FWD car? The noses are always heavier.. when you go and lift off throttle it should not do much for these cars... maybe more of understeer?

Could you show some links to the videos? would like to see it.
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I'm not really good with the computer so I can't promise anything concerning the videos, just try the FF section of the Racing School thread, but here's why hot haches lift-off oversteer - the rear is usually light, and when you let go the throttle the weight transfers to the front, taking away grip from the rear. On cars like Honda Civic Type-R (not the latest one) lift-off oversteer was induced because of the car's tendency to raise its inner rear tyre when turning without accelerating due to suspension setup.
 
blkvzgo
I'm not really good with the computer so I can't promise anything concerning the videos, just try the FF section of the Racing School thread, but here's why hot haches lift-off oversteer - the rear is usually light, and when you let go the throttle the weight transfers to the front, taking away grip from the rear. On cars like Honda Civic Type-R (not the latest one) lift-off oversteer was induced because of the car's tendency to raise its inner rear tyre when turning without accelerating due to suspension setup.
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I see, I usually hear stories, and experience it in GT with MR cars, Lift of on huge turns and you spin off.. or at least feel like it will.

Too bad GT5P physics are not that good yet when at least ONE tire lifts of when car goes under extreme turn :(
 
I wish they would hire me as a tester. I would work for free... :(
 
Yeah this is my problem too, especially since I'm pretty sure lifting off is the only way I managed to win any races in my Evos in GT4; the understeer was pretty strong so to get round corners I'd do a scandinavian flick (as in turn away from the corner briefly then steer into it), lifting off the throttle as I was turning into the corner, which would get the tail moving nicely, then when I was coming out of the turn just pin the throttle open, and being AWD it didn't even need counter steer, it just straightened itself up.

So if you can do it in an AWD car but not FWD, it seems odd. Things I'd try (but haven't tried yet) would be to make the rear end a lot springier so when you lifted off it had more travel, maybe use a lower gear (in real life, lifting off in 2nd gear can get you quite sideways in a Clio...) though I'm not sure GT simulates engine braking all that well, I've never really found that to be very realistic, but then that's probably because I'm not inside a 1000+kg car being rocked violently back and forth by lifting off the throttle. If it was possible, adding ballast to the front end of the car would help, but we can't do that on GT5p, so forget that.

Also a heavy front brake bias, N1 tyres on the rears with N2's or 3's on the front would probably help; the brake bias obviously meaning if you tapped the brake just after lifting off it would exaggerate any weight shifting going on, and the grip difference between front and rear should mean the rear pivots around the front more easily.

These are all quite obvious, though, so I guess you've already tried it. I haven't used a FWD car much in GT5p so I haven't tried it myself anyway.
 
blkvzgo
I wish they would hire me as a tester. I would work for free... :(
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Those guys work there do know how cars should behave.. Only limit is the game's engine that runs it. Sure they say the car needs to over steer here, or there.. but it's not easy to change over night if you catch my drift. Some things are just not possible to change. Maybe with GT5 release, physics will change more.
 
If you want to try, try playing with your suspension settings, You can reach this goal with a little tinkering!
 
GordonS
The track is damp in the video, by the way.
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If anything that would reduce the tendency for lift-off oversteer as you get less weight transfer in the wet.
 
fizzer
If anything that would reduce the tendency for lift-off oversteer as you get less weight transfer in the wet.
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LMAO. sorry but no. The wet track doesnt make the weight stay at the back of the car now does it. As soon as you brake then the weight will shift forward.

FWD cars do oversteer, just watch Tiff from 5th gear testing the Ford KA sport, nearly every corner he kicks the ass out. or though I have never seen a Golf GTI do it. but they are like the Typre R civic's they tend to just **** there legs.
 
Yes, the Civic Type-R, hot Peugeots, older GTIs tend to raise their inner rear wheel when turning, thus inducing oversteer, and now I know why. I did some research, and it seems that the cause of this are very stiff anti-roll bars (stabilisers). Now I did some tuning in the game trying to achieve this, but since we don't have the option to configure anti-roll bars, the effect was minimal. All I got through the available suspension tuning was the car losing the tail in a minor angle, without the need for any countersteer. This is certainly not what I wanted. And although I understand that given the ability to tune anti-roll bars I'd probably achieve the desired effect, I'm still quite sure that there are a few FWD cars in the game that should be able to lift-off oversteer in their stock form. So one reason for the fact that they don't is the unwillingness of the physics engine to let the cars "raise their leg", although I don't think in real life FWD cars in fact do oversteer just because of stiff anti-roll bars. There's more to it than that.
 
maybe ASM is still on??
i manage to get lift-off oversteer in itr not much but i get it, i think its easier to feel and see lift-off oversteer if you using some kind of wheel instead of sixaxis
 
blkvzgo
I'm not really good with the computer so I can't promise anything concerning the videos, just try the FF section of the Racing School thread, but here's why hot haches lift-off oversteer - the rear is usually light, and when you let go the throttle the weight transfers to the front, taking away grip from the rear. On cars like Honda Civic Type-R (not the latest one) lift-off oversteer was induced because of the car's tendency to raise its inner rear tyre when turning without accelerating due to suspension setup.
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Sadly, most cars haven't lifted inner tires under hard cornering in GT games since GT1 & 2. I personally would love to see it come back again.
 
Parnelli Bone
Sadly, most cars haven't lifted inner tires under hard cornering in GT games since GT1 & 2. I personally would love to see it come back again.
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Would make for some brilliant replays.
 
Just out of curiosity, what tires are you using, and what track?

Lift-off is not because of the inside rear cocking up... (that would just add extra grip to the oustide rear)... it's all because weight transfer forward unloads the rear tires and allows them to "skip" across the pavement as the rear anti-rollbar prevents weight transfer to the outside rear tire... keeping it flat against the ground and allowing it to lose grip.

Since you can't touch the anti-rollbars in the game, you can't create lift-off oversteer in cars that don't tend to do it, as stock, except by staggering tires. But drive with N tires, and the rear end is pretty easy to break free. As "S" tires are akin to street-legal R Compounds, you can't really expect much lift-off oversteer from them. Take it this way... do you see FWD touring cars going through corners sideways? Me neither. Too much grip and composure. You're not getting lift-off oversteer on a matched set of track tires in real life (just spins)... but you can get it on street tires.

Which is why it's so ridiculously easy to tune the Integra. Tons of grip, and a rear end that's reluctant to break-away. Means you can get away with some awesome PP balancing with it compared to some other FWDs.
 
GordonS
The track is damp in the video, by the way.
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Doesnt matter. Fact still stands FWD are easy to LOOS. I have no issue getting my FWD to LOOS at will at the race track. .. as long as ESM is turned off.

The video was because someone asked for a video of LOOS.

RWD are less prone to LOOS because the engine braking on the rear tyres will aid (not prevent) in stopping the back from wanting to overtake the front.
If you had no back brakes on a car we would have lots of sideways vehicles when people braked into corners. This is what is being achieved by lifting the throttle in an FWD car.
If anyone here is game enough (not me) next track day you do, instead of lifting the throttle mid corner, pop the clutch in and see if it gives you the same effect as LOOS... I doubt it will.
 
I've played around with the supensions setting, even used tunes, but I found the best way to simulate proper lift off over streer on fwd cars is, as someone has mentioned alrready, running different tyres, for example, N3 front, N1 rear, or even S1 front, N3 rear.

Its not ideal, but it really is the closest way you can acheive the agressive nature of it on such fwd cars.

I too love Hot hatches, a well driven hatch can show much faster cars a thing or two along demanding twistie roads, I have owned some fantastic versions including 306 Gti-6, Mk2 gti 16v, ax gti, and highly tuned 4wd light weight Nissan Pulsar GTi-R (last seen in GT2, still a hatchback but very very quick) and hope there's a lot in the full game. The new Focus RS is causing a big deal at the moment, and so did the Megane R26.6, and JDM Civic Type R (FD2), awesome examples of how much Fwd has come on the last few years.
 
One of the Focus RS comparisons I've been waiting for is out... Driver's Republic (the other is Evo). They rate it as about equal to the R26.R (only because the lighter R26.R is better in tighter corners and feels more immediate) and much better than the STi.
 
The problem is N2 tyres mate, less grip in the car means less lift off oversteer. I don't know about getting the rear end sliding, but I can certainly make the car move very well by lifting off when I drive the hot hatches. BTW, "Unlike most people I like the FWD hatches"? LOL, I think most people here love driving them, very fun little cars which also provide close racing.
 
niky
Just out of curiosity, what tires are you using, and what track?

Lift-off is not because of the inside rear cocking up... (that would just add extra grip to the oustide rear)... it's all because weight transfer forward unloads the rear tires and allows them to "skip" across the pavement as the rear anti-rollbar prevents weight transfer to the outside rear tire... keeping it flat against the ground and allowing it to lose grip.

Since you can't touch the anti-rollbars in the game, you can't create lift-off oversteer in cars that don't tend to do it, as stock, except by staggering tires. But drive with N tires, and the rear end is pretty easy to break free. As "S" tires are akin to street-legal R Compounds, you can't really expect much lift-off oversteer from them. Take it this way... do you see FWD touring cars going through corners sideways? Me neither. Too much grip and composure. You're not getting lift-off oversteer on a matched set of track tires in real life (just spins)... but you can get it on street tires.

Which is why it's so ridiculously easy to tune the Integra. Tons of grip, and a rear end that's reluctant to break-away. Means you can get away with some awesome PP balancing with it compared to some other FWDs.
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As I said in my first post I'm using the recommended tyres from the manual, for hot hatchbacks its usually N2~N3, so I use N2s (by the way Pro physics, all aids off, except ABS=1, although I tried turning it off but without any difference) and I tested the cars on just about every track. As for the inside rear cocking up not being related to oversteer characteristics, just search "Honda Civic Type R car review - Top Gear - BBC autos" on Youtube, where you can clearly see the car sliding when the rear inside tyre cocks up, also check this article, http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2359/article.html , it says that stiff sway bars make the inside rear tyre lift off the ground. Also I wouldn't bring touring cars as an example, since they use racing tyres and have racing suspensions and are usually tuned for neutral handling, while hot hatches usually have a degree of oversteer installed into their suspension, although for obvious reasons it is only accesible when the throttle is off.
 
When the rear tyre lifts off the ground, you have a near perfectly even weight distribution between the front tyres which gives them loads of grip which could create lift off oversteer.
 
The cocking isn't the cause of lift-off oversteer... it's a side-effect of the suspension tuning that allows it. Some cars will lift a leg but will not oversteer on lift-off.

RE: Touring cars: What I'm pointing out is that lift-off oversteer needs less grip to happen.

The handling for cars like the Focus ST and the Integra are as expected. The Integra really never was known as a lift-off hooligan, and the ST is tuned on the safe side. I do say, I can get some out of the Swift, which does it in real life, but it's only in long, fast sweepers... it is weird about the Cooper, but according to some tests, they dialled out the first generations tendency to lift-off oversteer in the current one back in 06... which some testers say now nudges into oversteer... some neutral-steer on lift-off remains, but that's the extent that it will go to, now. I've checked, and some owners say that you need to modify the rear swaybar to make the current gen oversteer, now. Pity.

Oh, and Tiff most likely uses the handbrake. Show-off that he is.
 
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niky
The cocking isn't the cause of lift-off oversteer... it's a side-effect of the suspension tuning that allows it. Some cars will lift a leg but will not oversteer on lift-off.

RE: Touring cars: What I'm pointing out is that lift-off oversteer needs less grip to happen.

The handling for cars like the Focus ST and the Integra are as expected. The Integra really never was known as a lift-off hooligan, and the ST is tuned on the safe side. I do say, I can get some out of the Swift, which does it in real life, but it's only in long, fast sweepers... it is weird about the Cooper, but according to some tests, they dialled out the first generations tendency to lift-off oversteer in the current one back in 06... which some testers say now nudges into oversteer... some neutral-steer on lift-off remains, but that's the extent that it will go to, now. I've checked, and some owners say that you need to modify the rear swaybar to make the current gen oversteer, now. Pity.

Oh, and Tiff most likely uses the handbrake. Show-off that he is.
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Yes, I agree that some cars lift their leg without any oversteer, and some others (some FWD and most RWD cars) will oversteer without lifting their leg, but tyre lift may be the cause of oversteer, although it certainly isn't the only one, as I said in post N.15, there's more to it than that.
I don't know about the new MINI, but isn't the one that we have the 1st gen one, because I can tell by the headlamps that it is.
About the Swift, I tried it once more but all I got on lift-off was a better turn in, but it sure didn't look and feel like oversteer. Could you please be more specific on what turns did you experience oversteer on?
And who is Tiff?
 
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Someone mentioned Tiff Needell and the Ford Ka. Tiff most likely uses the handbrake for the camera.

I've experienced lift-off oversteer on the track, but it's not as dramatic as you see on TV... just a few degrees or so... before the tires come back in line. You really have to slam on the brakes or yank the handbrake to achieve anything close to a "drift" in a FF car.

Or even some RWD cars... a lot of modern cars just have too much understeer built-in. But you don't get too much of that in-game, since all you get are the sportier versions of RWD cars and not... say... your basic 316i, which pushes at high speed... :lol:

I spent all of one afternoon trying to get an AWD Impreza to kick its tail out... took a while. Tried the same with a Legacy, but it was as reluctant as the Mazda6 to do anything of the sort... :lol:
 
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