SCC Old Timer Event - Ferrari P330 P4 - Sunday Nov 22, 2009 - *Event Complete *

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jjaisli

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Supercar Challenge - Old Timer Event - 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 - Sunday, November 22nd, 2009 - 20:00 Hr GMT


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Get ready...things are about to get interesting. :)

The 4th event in the Classic Series features the rare and beautiful 1967 Ferrari 330 P4. Thanks to fellow forum members, there's a wealth of information posted about this car below and I encourage everybody to have a look.

The rules and format will stay the same from previous event as I thought (lag aside) it generally worked out well. However, there will be one major change. This event will be run in a Private Lobby in an effort to keep out punters. It's not a step I wanted to take but I feel it's become necessary due to the disruptions last time. So if you're interested in joining this event, please post below or send me a PSN message. If I'm not currently on your PSN buddy list, go ahead and send me a friend request.

Races will follow the current Formula 1 points system:
1st place: 10 points
2nd place: 8 points
3rd place: 6 points
4th place: 5 points
5th place: 4 points
6th place: 3 points
7th place: 2 points
8th place: 1 point
With an additional 1 point going to the fastest lap holder

The Lobby will be set up under my PSN ID: jjaisli about 5~10 minutes before the event starts with the following conditions:

TC: Off
ABS: Off
SC: Off
RL: Off
Transmission: Automatic (which will allow you to choose manual, semi or full auto)
Collisons: On with penalty
Penalties: Unlmited
Grid Order: Random

- I encourage the use of headsets, although to be realistic, we know headsets don't work very well when more than 4-5 people are using them at the same time. And if we really have a large lobby, I would like to ask everybody to turn off their headsets completely once the race gets started as it will save bandwidth. Once back in the lobby, feel free to use the mics again.

- If you have already unlocked and purchased the 330 P4, you're free to create your own unique livery. But be sure to check THIS POST before doing so. if you don't have this car unlocked, the game allows you to select any one of about a dozen pre-created liveries. Selecting a different livery is helpful to distinguish different cars, especially for those of us who turn off the annoying ID flags.

- Between each event there will be a 2-3 minute break, longer if needed or requested. :)

- As we saw from the last event, this game does have a rather annoying bug, where another car may appear to push you off the road, and seem to be almost 'stuck' to your car. IF this should happen, please keep in mind the person that appears to be doing the pushing, is likely up the road, driving into the distance, and in all likelihood, it was not done on purpose. Eutechnyx is working on the problem (Details can be found here: http://forums.eutechnyx.com/index.php/topic,1366.0.html

- I will write down times, fastest, laps etc after each event. But please keep track of your own times, just in case. I'll post the results either later that night or the following morning.

A) Practice Session : Homestead Miami Road Course - 3 Laps - Dry - Random Grid

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As has become tradition, the first 3-lap race is considered a 'warm-up' round to get used to the car, it's braking and handling abilties, and the sensation racing against a lobby full of other cars. Points won't count so don't sweat it. As we just ran Miami infield in the last run, I was reluctant to run it two events in a row but it's the closest we have to Daytona where this car swept the podium in 1967. So it will be in the practice round as a homage to Ferrari's history in Florida.

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1) Race No 1 : Nurburgring - 9 Laps - Dry - Random Grid
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We're racing on the grand prix track: fast, technical, challenging. Watch your braking points and maintain a good flow and it will all be over in less than 15 minutes.


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2) Race No. 2 : Riviera - 15 Laps - WET - Random Grid
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This track and car combination a challenge, period. But in the wet it becomes an entirely new animal. This one should push 30 minutes and promises to be a real nail biter.

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3) Race No. 3 : Spa - 9 Laps - Dry - Random Grid
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It's inevitable that the most exciting and challenging track in the game will make frequent appearances. But it seems to match this car perfectly. Race time expected to be roughly 17 minutes.


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4) Race No. 4 : Mont Tremblant - 15 Laps - Dry - Random Grid

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Mont Tremblant is probably my favorite (or second favorite) track in the game. And it's been tough holding out and only introducing it in the 4th round. But it's wonderful flow is worth the wait. We'll stretch this final race out to 15 laps and its should be over in 22 minutes or less.

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Hope to see everybody there on the 22nd!
 
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:)Mhhh!!!!!now we'll be having some real fight for lap times as this is the car of the aces,and most of lap time records are achieved with it.Some of the fastest drivers i met online always play with this car-i'm remembering pollero and kiki16 for instance-now we'll see what Alan and Mhailwood are really made off:):):):):):dopey:👍
 
👍 Good pick Jeff!

I'll start digging for some history info about it and post it here if any relevant is found.
 
My F330 P4 currently consists of four detached wheels, and the body vertically hovering in the middle.

Looks like I need to buy it again.
 
I'm not sure if that's correct arvore. Cars like the FXX or DB9R, not to mention the 333SP would destroy the lap times of the 330 P4. In fact, even the 512S & 512M are a generation ahead and much quicker, in any sense of the word.

But I consider the P4 a very, shall we say, "interesting" car to drive. It's very quick, but not so fast that it makes close racing impossible. And it still has rather quirky handling and forces you to pay more attention to keeping your own car in line than you can on just stalking the cars in front of you and planning a pass through quick reflexes alone.

bullie--whatever you can dig up and add is fine with me. :) But I think this car's 1st-2nd-3rd place at the 1967 Daytona 24hrs will go down as it's defining moment in history.

And Alan, you need to first sell it and then buy it again. And make sure you take it out for a spin before doing any tuning. But I'm sure you could somehow manage to drag it across the line first no matter what condition it's in. :) 👍
 
jjaisli
I'm not sure if that's correct arvore. Cars like the FXX or DB9R, not to mention the 333SP would destroy the lap times of the 330 P4. In fact, even the 512S & 512M are a generation ahead and much quicker, in any sense of the word.

You're right of course i was thinking of the 333SP,my mistake but who knows if it won't be one off your future choices????💡💡💡
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Some informations about the 330 P4:

Engine
Aluminium, type 237, 60º V12, mid-longitudinal positioned, naturally aspired, DOHC, 36 valve. 3967 cc, Lucas fuel injection system, producing 450 bhp @ 8200rpm (113,44 bhp/liter)

Body/frame
Aluminium body over tubular steel chassis

Drive/brakes/suspension
RWD, ventilated discs all round, double wishbones w/ col springs, damper units and anti-roll bars both at rear and front.

Weight and dimensions
792kg (568,18 bhp/tonne), 2400mm wheelbase, 1488mm front track, 1450mm rear track

Transmission
5 speed manual gearbox

Top speed
338 km/h

Model history

The 330 P4 is an evolution of the earlier Ferrari's 330P models that where consecutively upgraded to P2, P3 and finally P4, during the golden years of the Ford-Ferrari war.
The first tests of the P3's replacement car, which was aimed to take revenge from Ford's 1-2-3 win at Le Mans in 1965 were conducted in December of that year. Apart from cosmetic changes, the most important new part of the P4 was its engine. Still displacing 4 litres, the unit was derived from the 3 litre F1 engine. Main new feature of the engine was the new head, with 3 valves per cylinder, one exhaust and two intake. The Lucas fuel injection was moved from between the cylinder banks to between the camshafts. The engine was rated at 450 bhp at 8200 rpm.

After 560 (!) test laps at Daytona in December 1966, the P4 was ready for action. Two of the three P3s were fitted with P4 style bodywork and a Weber carbureted engine. Two unfinished 330 P3s were built up to the same specifications and dubbed 412 P. All four cars were sold to privateers, to back up the factory P4 effort. New from Ford at the 1967 24 hours of Le Mans was the Mk IV version of the GT40, featuring an American built aluminium-honeycomb monocoque and the familiar 7 litre V8.
All the testing at Daytona paid off as Ferrari dominated on Ford's home soil in the Daytona 24 hours race. The podium was filled by Ferrari drivers which underlined the Scuderia's dominance when the three winning cars crossed the line together. The first two were P4s and the third a P3. At Le Mans, Ford was back with the new Mk IV and beat the sophisticated Ferraris on horsepower. Reliability again almost got the better of Ford, but one of the two surviving Mk IV finished on top, closely followed by two P4s. Ferrari did win that year's overall sportscar World Championship, for the 12th time in 14 years.

Rule changes at the end of the season left the 330 P3, 330 P4 and 412 P obsolete. This cut the career of one of Ferrari's best looking racers short to just one season. Two of the 330 P4s were converted to '350 Can-Am' specification by cutting down the body and fitting a slightly larger version of the twin-cam V12 engine. The third 330 P4 was not raced again. At the end of 1967, the modified cars were campaigned in the Can-Am Challenge but proved unable to take on the much larger engined and lighter competition. Chris Amon's best result was a fifth in the Monterey Grand Prix at Laguna Seca. At the end of the year the two cars were sold to privateers, who continued to race them around the world with considerable success for several more seasons.

Chassis 0856
Chassis 0856 was he first of three 330 P4s constructed for the 1967 season. Originally fitted with a Coupe body, it was raced to a first in the Monza 1000 km race and a third at Le Mans. For the season finale at Brands Hatch, the roof was cut off, dropping the weight by an estimated 40 kg. It could nevertheless do no better than fifth in the BOAC 500. Unlike the other two P4s chassis 0856 was retired from racing and has survived in remarkable original condition. Once part of the prominent Albert Obrist and Bernie Ecclestone collections, this priceless Ferrari is now owned by a Canadian collector. At one of its rare outings, it seen at the 2004 Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance and the Ferrari Club of America meeting a few days later.
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Ferrari-330-P4_1.jpg

The one and only Ferrari 330 P4 still in original condition existing at one of its latest appearences
 
bullie, I see a P3/4 was at Vila Real in 1968 (7th picture from the top), you could check about that car also ;)

http://www.interclassico.com/?a=imgthreads-view&i=8&d=50

It belonged (and I think still belongs) to David Piper.

Same race, different picture, battling a different GT40 (this one driven by Carlos Gaspar)


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Funny that the Ferrari is green and the GT40 is red :D


Note: pictures from the golden age of sportscar racing in Portugal (late sixties - early seventies)
 
Hi Mario,

I believe that the car from the picture you posted would be, considering its date ('68), either a P3 fitted with a body and (probably) some upgrades similar to those included on the P4, or a replica car. Because at that time, all the original existent P4's would have their hoods chopped off, as stated on the text I quote.

On other text I've found is stated that the P4, due to its rarity, it was one of the cars with the most significant number of replica's.

Nevertheless, I'll try to find out more about it.
 
Not a replica bullie, this was David Piper's car, with a well documented racing history. Some links report it as a P3/4, some as a P4, I guess it's more probable that it's indeed a P3/4

EDIT - Well, it seems things are not that simple. after all it isn't David Piper's most known car, since this one was raced at Vila Real in 1968 and "his" P4 was bought in 1970.

Very confusing story ... read it and draw your own conclusions here: http://www.velocetoday.com/cars/cars_69.php

But notice this: that article is about a different car than the one in these pictures. Piper must have had, or rented, this car he used in 1968 before the other one he kept for many years.
 
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Here's what I've found about that car on the photo that Mario posted. This is quite interesting:

Besides the 3 original P4 cars that I mentioned earlier in my other post, a 4th one was also built, under the chassis number 0846, and which is know as the Ferrari 330 P3/4. Why? Here's what I've found:

(chassis number) 0846, known as the P 3/4 because though it was originally built as a P3 by Ferrari, it was modified in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine while retaining its P3 nose and chassis. This vehicle was badly damaged in an accident at Le Mans and was discarded by Ferrari.[5] Recently, many components of the original P 3/4 0846 appear to have resurfaced in the possession of exotic car collector and enthusiast James Glickenhaus, a former movie director and stock exchange magnate. Although both he and David Piper (from whom he acquired the car) thought it one of four replica chassis constructed with the blessing of Enzo Ferrari in the late 1960s, it appears that nearly all of the tube frame chassis and some other components from the wrecked P3/4 were used in this car.[6] This seeming discovery has stirred much controversy,[7] Ferrari Market Letter recently reported: "While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutineering marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P 3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. P 3/4 0846 was road tested by Car and Driver magazine.[8]

from Wikipedia
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Further on this...

0846-Another remaining Ferrari that resembles a P4 is Jim Glickenhaus' 330 P3/4. It was built using parts from David Piper with assistance from Ferrari and has since caused a rift in the community. While Jim has proven that accident damage to the chassis he has matches the damage 0846 received at LeMans, established entities such as Cavallino Magazine will not accept the car as a real Ferrari. One major point of contention is the coupe body Jim originally put on the car. His 330, started out life as a P3 Roadster and was never made with a coupe body. After getting the tail section from another car, 0846 was brought back to its original and correct configuration.

by Richard Owen with assistance from Paul Skett, taken from supercars.net
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And, in more detail...

330 P3/4 Chassis 0846

By Erik C. Nielsen


Pictures copyright Erik C. Nielsen


Sometimes, the facts get in the way of a good story. Other times, the truth is often more interesting than fiction.

One of the more controversial cars of recent note has been the recently restored Glickenhaus Ferrari P4, which garnered Best in Show at the Ferrari of Long Island Concours d'Elegance last Saturday. Erik Nielsen took a detailed look at the car, did some investigation, and here is his report:

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The Glickenhaus P4, now serial number 0846. Or is it? Photo by Werner Pfister.


The original chassis plate of 0846 was most likely destroyed in the fire that also destroyed much of the right rear section of the chassis at Le Mans in 1967. If you go with the definition that original means original chassis plate then you believe that 0846 no longer exists.

However, if you look at what is there, then interesting questions arise. The forensic evidence shows that there more than likely are significant portions of the original chassis of 0846 in the Glickenhaus car. This fact was probably totally unbeknown to David Piper when he commissioned the car and was definitely unknown to Glickenhaus when he bought the car in 2000. So let's start at the beginning of the saga…

330 P3/4 0846's Known History
Chassis 0846 started off life as a 330 P3 and raced in four main events in 1966. At the 12 hours of Sebring, Mike Parkes and Bob Bondurant drove it until the gearbox failed on lap 172. The car was also a DNF at the Targa Florio at the hands of Nino Vacarrella and Lorenzo Bandini. Although entered at the 1000km at the Nuerburgring with Mike Parkes and John Surtees, it was a DNS. It did run two weeks later at the 1966 Le Mans event, but went out again with a failed gearbox while being driven by Pedro Rodriguez and Richie Ginther.

The Scuderia then upgraded the car to P3/4 specifications and it was used as a team car for the 1967 season. At the hands of Lorenzo Bandini and Chris Amon, the car came first using #23 at the 24 Hours of Daytona. Bandini drove the car again in April and won the 4 hours of Le Mans using #22. Vacarrella teamed up with Ludovico Scarfiotti for the 1967 running of the Targa Florio, but the car again was classified as a DNF as a result of a crash. 0846 was then prepared for another run at Le Mans, this time with Amon and Vacarrella as team mates. Amon suffered a puncture and attempted to change the tire on the circuit. The hammer broke so he tried to drive back to the pits. The shredded tire destroyed part of the body work and started a fire and most historians believe that the car was destroyed as a result. Others claim that the car ran at Mugello and was destroyed in a crash there.

In any case, Ferrari's response through communications with Ferrari historian and Cavallino contributor Keith Bluemel was as follows:
"Burned at Le Mans 1967 - The car was returned to Maranello. Bodywork: Almost completely destroyed. Right side distribution system and fuel tank burned. Disassembled all the mechanical components and sent the chassis to customer service department for eventual use. There is nothing to say that the car has been sold and for Ferrari a car with the chassis number 0846 does not exist."

So, insofar as Ferrari is concerned, there is no chassis 0846. However, Ferrari did not object or make any further statement when Glickenhaus registered the car as 0846 with NY tags.

Wasn't 0846 Used in Pininfarina’s 250 P5?
There have been several claims that the remains of 0846 was used in the construction of Pininfarina's 250 P5 which was shown at the 1968 Geneva Auto Show. The claim that 0846 was used in creating P5 was also stated by Winston Goodfellow in a recent car magazine.

Mark Ketchem then pointed out that there was a problem with this story based on the measurements that Karl Ludvigsen made in 1986.

"The P5 is smaller in every dimension (other than width) then its predecessor, the famous 330 P4 of 1967. It is over 3 three inches shorter overall and 0.8 inches shorter in wheelbase [93.7 versus 94.5] as well as lower."

Ketchem's notes show the following differences between a P4 chassis and the chassis of the P5:

Front track 58.6" versus 55.1"
Rear track 57.1" versus 53.3"
Length 164.8" versus 161.5"
Width 71.2" versus 71.2"
Height 39.4" versus 38.6"
Weight 792.2 kg versus 663.6 kg (no fuel)


Reviewing pictures of the chassis of a 330 P4 and P5 today, one can rather easily come to the conclusion that 0846 was not used to create the P5-- currently owned by Shiro Kosaka in Japan--nor was any other 330P4. The P5 chassis has enough differences to seem to have been created as a new design.

Goodwood Festival of Speed 2000
At the 2000 edition of the Goodwood Festival of Speed, James Glickenhaus of New York was present became interested in the red 330 P4 coupe of David and Liz Piper, then having the serial number of 0003.

An invitation was made for Mr. Glickenhaus and his son to view the Piper P4 in London. Also present that day was a "NOS Alloy P4 coupe body circa 1967 built by the original panel beater." When inquiries were made as to who made it at Alegretti, Piper stated that it was "the old man."

Once back, discussions about the cars continued with Alberto Pedretti about what was offered and arrangements were made for a second trip to the UK. Together, they inspected the cars that were offered along with the original blueprints for the P4 chassis design and a decision was made to acquire the red car and the original coupe bodywork by Alegretti. The intended use of the car was a weekend driver to be enjoyed on public roads.

The following documentation was provided at the time of the sale dated October 6, 2000.

CERTIFICATE OF ORIGIN
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN
1967 FERRARI 330 P4
I, David PIPER, hereby declare and warrant that were acquired from Enzo Ferrari in 1974 an original 1967 Ferrari Ferrari engine Nr.*0003*, an original 1967 gearbox Nr. 593A N7,the original 1967 chassis drawings and various original 1967 body and suspension parts which we built into a 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 chassis No. *0003.
Signed: David Piper

In addition, Piper, in writing attested to the fact that: he had continuously owned 0003 since 1974 and had raced it at various venues through the world and included photo's, magazine and newspaper articles on the car. Some of these photos had notations in Piper's handwriting on the back one of which interestingly refers to it as a Ferrari 330 P 3/4 and having won a race in UK.

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The Questions Begin
The car and the body arrived in NY and its disassembly began. The engine and gearbox went to Alberto and Bob Wallace (of Ferrari and Lamborghini fame) and Sal Barone, formerly of Wide World of Cars, began stripping and de-riveting the chassis.

The person selected to fit the NOS Alloy coupe body to the chassis, was John Hydak Jr. of MetalKraft located in Noblesville, Indiana. One day he called Glickenhaus and said: "I was reading a book about P4's which talked about the 1967 Targa Florio crash of 0846. You can see the result of that crash and the repair to the original chassis tubes. In your [Glickenhaus] chassis, you can also see where it was modified at different times by different welders... "

Hydak also thought that one could see the section that likely was "burned/destroyed" in Amon's 1967 Le Mans incident had also been replaced with tubes of a different dimension and character by a different welder as well. Barone, who was overseeing the entire restoration, also mentioned that be believed Hydak was right and that he had noticed several things about the chassis which he believed showed that it had been modified from a P3 chassis to accept a P4 motor changing the wheelbase from P3 to P4.

So, was Piper's old 0003 really 0846?

About this time, Ferrari enthusiast Patrick Faucompre told James Glickenhaus an email that "Tom Meade had a garage in Modena in the sixties, which he shared (far later) with David Piper. Tom told me had in the early 70's two and a half P4, in pieces, in his Modena garage. He needed space and personally threw out the chassis-tube of 0846 in a Modena junkyard, because nobody was interested by such parts, and he traded or sold to David in 1971 a complete P4 body."

As an interesting aside, around that time James Glickenhaus met Tom Meade as well. Glickenhaus told him he was interested in a P4 and Meade replied that he had a "wrecked one that he could repair". When Glickenhaus stated he wanted to have a coupe, the reply was "I have a coupe body and can build it up as a coupe." They agreed to meet again in California. In a rickety garage he took the cover off a dusty and shipping damaged "Tomissina". The "shape was beautiful but the fit and finish of the interior which I remember as being velour was a bit kit-carish" according to Glickenhaus. But it was no deal. "I moved on and bought an ex Pensky /Donohue Lola which I still have".

All of this information—plus a great deal more-- was then sent to Ferrari via the Owner's Website. Glickenhaus then registered on the site that he was the owner of 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 0846 (the telaio number is required before Ferrari allows you to register a car in "Your Garage") on the Ferrari Owners site. After about a week Ferrari came back and put 330 P4 Rossa Corsa with a date of construction of 1966 (they changed the date as Glickenhaus had entered 1967), and that Glickenhaus had owned it since 2000. The photographs and information are still online and posted for all owners to see. There has not been an attempt made by Ferrari to remove this information from their website.

Glickenhaus also noted that the original magnesium uprights that were on the car when he bought it from Piper had seen better days so he asked Ferrari to build two new sets, one as a spare, in aluminum. Ferrari recast two sets of uprights, which they described as "P4 Suspension PA".

Most of these facts were posted on both the Ferrari Owner's website forum and also on FerrariChat.com. On the later, it seemed that determining the provenance of 0846 became a spectator's sport and everyone with an internet connection and a minimal passing interest in Ferrari became a historian.

A point that will become the key in all of this, whether or not the chassis was a "continuation" chassis like the other two cars, which is what the claim is, or if the chassis is a reworked 330 P3 chassis upgraded to 330 P4 specifications.

The following is taken from the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" of "330 P3/4. Chassis n. 0846" The only car in all the Technical Data Sheets labeled "330 P3/4" "-330 P3/P4 -
SCHEDA TECNICA" (TECHNICAL DATA SHEET)
330 P3/P4 (1967)
Telaio N 0846
Trasformazione di un modello P3 secondo le caratteristiche del modello P4. TELAIO
Telaio Tipo 593/603. Trasformazione della parte posteriore tubolare del telaio per i nuovi putoni del motore
Tipo 237."


Roughly translated:
Chassis n. 0846
Transformation of a P3 model according to the characteristics of the P4 model.
Chassis
Type 593/603. Transformation of the tubular part at the rear of the chassis for new Type 237 engine mountings."

Is The Glickenhaus Car 0846?
Does all of this make the car the missing 0846? The evidence is there that the chassis is consistent with a P4 that was created by modifying a P3. The engine is a P4 motor that ran at the 1967 Le Mans race and the gearbox ran at the 1966 Le Mans race. The body work is new, but 0846 was wrecked at least twice.

The final answer to that question really will be left up to Ferrari. The latest request from Ferrari is that they inspect the vehicle during the historic Targa Floria next year. Maybe then, we will have the final word on what is what.

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Note the angle of the distributors, not a 90 degree angle of the F1 engine.

e4.jpg

Note hidden fire bottle, modern safety to allow the car to be enjoyed without worry.

e5.jpg

Note the chassis repairs on the tube running between the spaghetti exhaust.

e6.jpg

Restored to period quality, not a gem, but real 1960's racing quality.

e7.jpg

Gearbox with Le Mans scrutineering marks.

e8.jpg

More evidence of the chassis modifications

e9.jpg

Note how the chassis has been modified to accept the P4 engine. If you had the original blueprints, you would like this joint up directly.

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Left Front Suspension details.

e11.jpg

Right Hand rear engine details.

e12.jpg

Similar to the LH engine mounts, modifications to the mounting are evident on Right side.

e13.jpg

P4 gearbox, simplicity, but built to last.

from Veloce Today Online Magazine
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Hun200kmh
Not a replica bullie, this was David Piper's car, with a well documented racing history. Some links report it as a P3/4, some as a P4, I guess it's more probable that it's indeed a P3/4


EDIT - Well, it seems things are not that simple. after all it isn't David Piper's most known car, since this one was raced at Vila Real in 1968 and "his" P4 was bought in 1970.

Very confusing story ... read it and draw your own conclusions here: http://www.velocetoday.com/cars/cars_69.php

But notice this: that article is about a different car than the one in these pictures. Piper must have had, or rented, this car he used in 1968 before the other one he kept for many years.
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I didn't see your post before my last reply. But accordingly to what I've read, that car in the photo at Vila Real, cannot be a "true" Ferrari 330 P4. The only "true" P4, P3/4 ever built were:

1. chassis #0856 that remains in its original state and is owned by Canadian Lawrence Stroll

2. chassis # 0858 was converted into a 350 Can-Am and is owned by American Walter Medlin

3. chassis # 0860 was also converted to a 350 Can-Am but is presently wearing a P4 Spyder body and is in a French automobile museum.

4. chassis #0846 is the one mentioned on my last post and, according to it was destroyed on its original configuration in '67 Le Mans accident.

Also, I may add, that from my brief research, the two P4's that were converted in 350 Can-Am were so in 1967 in Maranello (see this: http://www.supercars.net/cars/4474.html ), so this '68 photo can't be of a "true" P4 and, most likely, wouldn't be of the P3/4 which was destroyed in a accident just the year before.
 
This explains it:

http://www.circuitodevilareal.com/4...e&id=126:1968&catid=43:curiosidades&Itemid=95

I'll quote the relevant part, along with the english translation for all other readers to understand

Nota à lista de inscritos: O Ferrari (chassis #0854) de David Piper surge aqui referido como P4. Noutras publicações o mesmo carro é muitas vezes mencionado como P3/412P, P3/4 ou 412P. Na realidade, qualquer referência estará correcta, mas parece-nos que as duas últimas serão as mais apropriadas. O Ferrari de Piper era uma versão híbrida de 2 modelos, ou seja, uma evolução do antigo P3 de 1966 com os travões e carroçaria com (guarda-lamas maiores) do P4 de 1967, de modo a poder usar as novas jantes Campagnolo de estrela que permitiam pneus de medidas superiores. Uma das diferenças que distinguiam os 412P dos novos P4 era a manutenção da admissão por carburadores, ao invés da injecção mecânica do P4. Estes Ferrari híbridos eram destinados aos privados e às equipas de concessionários da marca italiana e, ao contrário dos Lola T-70, Porsche 906 e Ford GT40, não tinham sido produzidos em número suficiente de modo a obterem a homologação como Sport grupo 4, correndo como protótipos de grupo 6.

Google translation: Note to the subscribers list: The Ferrari (chassis # 0854) by David Piper appears here referred to as P4. In other publications the same car is often referred to as P3/412P, P3 / 4 or 412p. In fact, al references may be correct, but it seems that the last two will be most appropriate. The Piper's Ferrari was a hybrid version of 2 models, ie, an evolution of the old P3 1966 with the brakes and the body (bigger fenders) of P4 1967, in order to use the new star rims Campagnolo allowing bigger tire measures. One of the differences that distinguish the 412p of the new P4 was the maintenance of admission by carbs, instead of the mechanical injection of P4. These hybrid Ferrari were intended for private teams and its dealers in Italy and unlike Lola T-70, Porsche 906 and Ford GT40, were not produced in sufficient numbers in order to obtain the approval as Sport Group 4, running as prototypes of group 6.
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In any event, I'll be sure to take video of the next race and throw the historians into a fit, if we manage to field a grid of 16 cars. :D

Kidding aside, I very much appreciate the the great reading bullie! 👍 Terrific work and really fascinating reading.
 
Hi!

I have research a little bit more on this and seems like that this would be discussed for ever since... not even the ferrari 'experts' are able to drawn to a conclusion!

This is what I make of it:

1) There was only one car ever built by Ferrari that would be referenced as 330 P3/4. That car was built in 1966 and its chassis numbered has 0846.

2) Along with it there were 3 other cars built referenced has 330 P4.

3) The main differences between these two types were in the engine, more specifically on the camshafts, fuel injection system, etc.

4) The cars that in '67 won Daytona on the top three positions were P3/4 (1st) and 2 P4's (2nd and 3rd).

5) Later that year, the P3/4 had an accident at Le Mans were it was running along with the 3 P4's.

... now this is were things become confusion, because there are three theories:

1) the P3/4 (we're talking about chassis number 0846, remember), was lost permanently in the accident and Ferrari had excluded from their records of running chassis.

2) another theory says that the wreck from the accident was shipped back to Italy and, later offered to Pininfarina from which was built the concept of what would've be the 330 P5 presented at '68 Geneva show

3) the third theory states that the accident was not has bad as stated. The chassis was sold in the 70's to Mr. Piper, along with several parts from other P3 cars, and by him retained and, apparently never restaured. Later he sold it to the gentleman who currently owns it, whom had indeed had restaured it from A to Z.

Now this last part isn't a theory but a fact: there is an american Gentleman who claims that the P4 he owns was built upon the 'mythical' 0846 chassis. He supports this with a written declaration from Mr. Piper's itself, corroborating that he bought the chassis from Enzo Ferrari, and evidence on the chassis that proofs to be as P3 chassis adapted and modded to incorporate the P4's engine, as it is documented the original was back in '66. Also two other evidences are pointed out: 1) the verification marks on several parts of the car, including the chassis, similar to those done in '67 Le Mans race and, 2), evidence of damage in the chassis consistent to the documented damages suffered by the original P3/4 at that same race.

The ones who defend that this cannot be considered has the "real" P3/4 car, support their arguments in two facts:

1) Ferrari had scratch chassis 0846 from the rolling chassis log
2) Even considering that in fact this is that chassis, a quite significant parts incorporated on its restauration work are from different cars, making it a different car.

Nevertheless, this is a beautiful car, and one that quite sure each of us would love to own!

Also, it is clear to state at this point that the Vila Real car from the picture is not a P4 nor the P3/4, has proved by it chassis number that Mario mention. Which is a shame because it would be a significant occasion to host such a mythical car in Portugal!

Another note: there's another forum, FerrariChat, where you can find this post (http://thebestemployee.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69585&page=42) where the owner itself talks through the restauration process of the 0846 chassis car, and that derived in quite hard arguments about this matter.
 
Also, it is clear to state at this point that the Vila Real car from the picture is not a P4 nor the P3/4, has proved by it chassis number that Mario mention. Which is a shame because it would be a significant occasion to host such a mythical car in Portugal!
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Oh, don't you mind, that car is as significant as a P3, a P4 or a P3/4.

It's a 412P, defined as being ...

" ... "consumer version" of the famous 330 P3 race car, built for independent teams like NART (0844), Scuderia Filipinetti (0848), Francorchamps (0850), and Maranello Concessionaires (0854). These cars had carburetor engines instead of the factory Lucas fuel injection. Surviving 412P cars are worth approximately 8 million[clarification needed] nowadays.[citation needed]

There are only 2 cars that were originally built as 412P's: 0850 and 0854. P3 chassis. P3 Typo Motors except for Carburetors in place of FI. P4 suspension but P3 wheelbase 2412mm vs. 2400mm (P4 and P 3/4 0846) 0844 and 0848 were originally P3 Factory Racecars but when Ferrari sold them to customers they removed the Lucas Mechanical Fuel Injection and replaced it with Weber carburetors which reduced their output, something Ferrari wanted to do so that they would win points but not beat the factory cars which were then P 3/4 0846 (See Above), P4 0856, P4 0858, and P4 0860."


So, a 412P had:
- P3 chassis
- P3 type motors, but with carburators instead of injection
- P3 wheelbase
- P4 suspension


Also, and for considering a 412P as twin brother of the P3, P3/4 and P4, this is meaningful:

The P3's and 412P had the same 4 liter block which is different from the P4 4 liter block and all had P3 not P4 chassis. P 3/4 0846 is unique having, after modification by Ferrari for the 1967 race season, a P3 chassis with a P4 engine.
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And, last but not least, when JJAISLI said, in a previous post ...

bullie--whatever you can dig up and add is fine with me. But I think this car's 1st-2nd-3rd place at the 1967 Daytona 24hrs will go down as it's defining moment in history.
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... now we can be more precise and say that, according to wikipedia:

The P 3/4, one of the P4's, and one 412P electrified the racing world when they crossed the finish line together (in first 0846, second 0856, and third place 0844) in the 1967 24 Hours of Daytona, for a photo finish to counter Ford's photo of the Ford GT 40 MK II's crossing the finish line together First, Second, and Third at Le Mans in 1966.
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So, there you have it. The car that raced at Vila Real was a 412P (chassis 0854), meaning a "clients" P3, upgraded by Ferrari with P4 suspension and at the same time downgraded by Ferrari by applying to it carburators instead of fuel injection.

EDIT: Full account on all these cars can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_P#412P
 
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In my first post, when I said things are about to get interesting...I really had no idea. :lol:

Great stuff. I love reading about the history of these classic cars and I think it really adds some flavor to the event coming up. Thank you both for the interesting discussion. And I'll be keeping an eye out for chassis 0846. One never knows when it might just drive by. ;)


EDIT: Hmmm, so now I know that the car in the photo I posted is not really 'THE' 330 P4. So be it.
 
Jeff, you are confused. The car in he first post is a true P4, chassis #0856.

Chassis 0856 was he first of three 330 P4s constructed for the 1967 season. Originally fitted with a Coupe body, it was raced to a first in the Monza 1000 km race and a third at Le Mans. For the season finale at Brands Hatch, the roof was cut off, dropping the weight by an estimated 40 kg. It could nevertheless do no better than fifth in the BOAC 500. Unlike the other two P4s chassis 0856 was retired from racing and has survived in remarkable original condition. Once part of the prominent Albert Obrist and Bernie Ecclestone collections, this priceless Ferrari is now owned by a Canadian collector. At one of its rare outings, it seen at the 2004 Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance and the Ferrari Club of America meeting a few days later.
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jjaisli
In my first post, when I said things are about to get interesting...I really had no idea. :lol:

Great stuff. I love reading about the history of these classic cars and I think it really adds some flavor to the event coming up. Thank you both for the interesting discussion. And I'll be keeping an eye out for chassis 0846. One never knows when it might just drive by. ;)


EDIT: Hmmm, so now I know that the car in the photo I posted is not really 'THE' 330 P4. So be it.
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Quite contrarly my dear friend... the car you posted originally is THE one and only original P4 that has survived to this day... the only difference it has from its original state is the chopped off roof, done for the Brands Hatch race, as it was for the other 2 P4's built!

The difference is that after that Brands Hatch race, those 2 were converted as 350 Can-Am's, while the remaining other (the one you posted), was kept as it was.

That car is unique in the world!
 
Just got this game a wile ago ( about 2 weeks ) .. getting use to the awesome feel of this .. was scratching all over then web for some other guys playing this and never knew to look at GT planet *slaps forehead* .. (started to think that i was in fact one of the only ppl that has this) .. lol

Would love to join you guys online sometime .. i find if you join just some random lobby one of two things happen a) get booted right away before you even start racing or b) enter a destruction durby race , were every one just drives as they want .. and if you in the way will just bash you off the road .. very frustrating .. and when they start losing and cant catch up . they will stop turn around and drive the track in reverse just to bash you again !! .. wts .

Hope to catch you guys online sometime ..
 
You're more than welcome to join in the next event (or enter one of my lobbies) Ghost_Dice. It seems like you've been entering lobbies with our 'friends' Kubica88 or Taxi baz. Although to be honest, these two, and another Italian fellow who's PSN ID escapes me at the moment, are the only 3 clear and out right punters I've encountered so far with this game. The others just seem to be a mixture of new comers who haven't come to terms with the tracks or handling of the cars, or half-way decent drivers who just assume the proper way to pass is shove your way past. But from my experience most of the open lobbies I've entered haven't been too bad. That said, before I ever think about joining an open lobby at random, my first step is always to check and see if one of the GTPlanet/Eutechnyx/TheRacingElite forum regulars are online and running.

@ GTP_Hun @ bullie77: In my defense, I can only tell you that I'm suffering from a bad headcold at the moment. Not that I didn't trust you both, but I went back and reread all the historical related posts together, start to finish, rather than a paragraph here or there (in between working) and now it all makes more sense. :sly:
 
Thx jjaisli .. will deff keep an eye out for lobbys from that listed.
I would gladly join the next event .. dont think the time diffrance is such a big diffrance. would just need to work it back to see when i should be online. (its 12:15pm here now)

If i may add you or some of the others to my friendlist, would be awesome and easier to find you online then

Im actualy part of a dedicated racing team, here in ZA ( South africa ) were we tackle all sorts of racing games , like to stick to the more "sim" like games, GT5p,FC .. and now SCC . jumping fresh from a friendly FC championship on to SCC and ready to go

Till we meet on the Track then ;)
 
You'd be at GMT + 2. Which means the next event would start at 22:00 on a Sunday night--hopefully it's not too late for you.
 
Come and join us as soon as you can Ghost Dice. The bigger the starting line, the better! (also... statistically, there will be less probability of me ending last place as usual... :dunce: )

Jeff... what about those tracks for the event! I want to practice! (as if it would be of any help to me on the event...)
 
22:00 is a lil late .. For a Sunday night. BUT I am sure an exception can be made.
I will deff be online then.. And most other nights to, so sure to run into you or others on this forum. Looking forward to nice clean racing in the future.

Thx again
 
bullie77
Come and join us as soon as you can Ghost Dice. The bigger the starting line, the better! (also... statistically, there will be less probability of me ending last place as usual... :dunce: )

Jeff... what about those tracks for the event! I want to practice! (as if it would be of any help to me on the event...)
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Hey Bullie, will deff join and fight you for that last place ;)... Oh thx for the "history of the car" very intrusting read and good to know where the car comes from and how it got to were it’s at. Truly an epic car indeed!!

Oh and Im part of a Team of 6, witch 3 of us still in the process of getting a copy .. its just a bit hard finding it here .. BUT the other 3 ( me included ) already inported the game . and ready to race . so will be bringing more guys to race . this is a awesome game .. and cant understand why it got soooo under rated . but guess its like finding a diamond in the rough hey .

Team is GhostworX btw
 
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bullie77
Come and join us as soon as you can Ghost Dice. The bigger the starting line, the better! (also... statistically, there will be less probability of me ending last place as usual... :dunce: )

Jeff... what about those tracks for the event! I want to practice! (as if it would be of any help to me on the event...)
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I agree that it makes sense to announce the tracks in advance so it gives everybody a chance to practice and learn their braking points with that particular car and find a decent setup that works for them. It makes the racing more competitive and a lot more fun if we're fighthing each other rather than the track. But let's be realistic about this. The event is still 11 days away. If I were to announce the tracks today, you'd have guys like AlanG or MHailwood or Turnupdaheat doing laps within hours. And by the time the race started, they'd have them down to the point that they'd be lapping us. So in fairness to those in the lobby who are only human and not Michael Schumacher* clones, I won't make any track predictions until next week.

At any rate, I have one or two in mind that I'm pretty set on but I'm still undecided on the rest and will need to make a few practice rounds to see what works or what doesn't. All in good time my friend. :)

But if it helps at all, I can tell, don't waste time practicing on Paul Ricard. :sly:

Ghost_dice: Your friends are welcome to join of course as I'm sure from what you've said they're fair racers. But most likely this next event will be run in a private lobby to avoid the punter issues we suffered last time. I haven't fully made up my mind yet. It's not something I wanted to do but perhaps it's for the best. I'll be posting details (AND tracks ;)) next week and all will be made clear.

*Edit: This is in reference only to Schumacher's speed, racecraft, dedication, work ethic, tenacity and skill and should in no way reflect is 'human' faults.
 
Thx again jjaisli will be sure to tell them ( only 2 of them )
luckily we got a week to play around with setups and all .. get it running good on average
Then just fine tune before the race once you tell us were when and how .

Looking forward to getting you guys on the track and testing skills to what we like to call "Ints"

I would imagine that this will run over a set race order over a couple of tracks anyway .. So tuning a car should be done to get the best out of the car on any given track.

Till then.. but im sure we will run into each other "no punt intended" on the track some time before that .
 

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