The DSG Gets Cooler...and Another Gear!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Joey D
  • 33 comments
  • 3,738 views
Joey D

Joey D

Premium
Messages
47,812
United States
Lakes of the North, MI
Messages
GTP_Joey
Messages
GTP Joey
Volkswagen announces seven-speed DSG gearbox

Source: Leftlanenews.com

Volkswagen today revealed the latest version of its DSG gearbox — a seven-speed system codenamed DQ200. It uses a pair of dry clutches in preference to the six-speed version’s twin wet clutches, providing an increase in efficiency and performance.

The six-speed DSG gearbox, which was introduced in 2003, uses a pair of clutches submerged in oil. The new seven-speed gearbox adopts a pair of dry, organic bonded friction linings that do not require cooling, making the drivetrain more efficient through the extra ratio.

For the first time the DSG gearbox has been mounted transversely. Measuring only 369 mm in length and weighing only 79 kg including the dual-mass flywheel the gearbox is remarkably compact. These modest proportions mean it can be applied to models from the Polo right up to the Passat and, in its current form, it is capable of coping with power outputs of up to 170 PS and 184 lbs ft of torque.

In adopting seven-speeds, Volkswagen engineers were able to lower first gear to improve acceleration from a standstill. By contrast seventh gear has been raised to act as an overdrive function making it ideal for motorway driving with the additional effect of raising economy and comfort levels.

The volume of oil contained within the gearbox has also been reduced by 75 per cent. The oil circuits are split into two in an effort to protect the lubrication’s purity. As with a conventional manual gearbox, one of the circuits is used for cooling and lubrication of the gear teeth, the second feeds oil to the gear actuators. Since the clutch does not require cooling the quantity of oil was reduced from seven litres in the six-speed DSG gearbox to only 1.7-litres in the new seven-speed system.

Production of the gearbox is set to start at the end of the year.

----

I don't know how many of you have experienced the DSG transmission, but for those of you that have you know what a great piece of engineering it is. I'll be curious to see if they put it in next years GTI, if they do maybe they can get the 0-60 time down a little bit to make it a tad more competitive.
 
What Exige pointed out.

This will greatly increase performance in smaller displacement engines, while still giving them the gearing they need for fuel efficient driving. My prediction is this will first make an appearance in a gas miser type car, rather than raw performance. Only once the DQ200 is made stronger while it make an appearance in a performance vehicle.
 
...it is capable of coping with power outputs of up to 170 PS and 184 lbs ft of torque...
Click to expand...

So pretty much the limit in the US is the 2.5L I5, which is no surprise really. However, my guess is that will stay a six-speed (given that it is 170 BHP), and instead, the seven-speed unit will go on the '08 TDI models.

Why?

There was a story posted on GMI about two weeks ago that had part of a press release saying that the new TDI Jetta would be able to achieve 40 MPG city and 60 MPG highway with the new 2.0L diesel. Given that the last of the TDI models in the US came up a bit short in that regard, my guess is that the new engine and the new gearbox have combined to create the spectacular performance on fuel economy.

But, chances are the US will be stiff-armed once again with the smaller engines in the VW lineup. Oh well, we'd probably have to wait for the Polo or Fox anyway...
 
exigeracer
Does not =
Click to expand...
And do you honestly think that it will be long before a version makes its way into Porsche hands? That was what I was referring to, not that this invidual version of this very transmission would be put into the 911.
 
So is the DSG some kind of CVT transmission?
 
Omnis
So is the DSG some kind of CVT transmission?
Click to expand...


No. It is much like a regular manual transmission but the gears are separated on two different sets of shafts (1st,3rd,5th,7th on one shaft, 2nd,4th,6th on the other) a separate clutch controls each shaft allowing to preselect the next gear ready for your shift.

When you shift say 2nd - 3rd (by a paddle) the clutch engaging the shaft holding 2nd gear disengages and the clutch on the second shaft holding 3rd engages roughly the same time giving a near seemless shift (then when programed the computer will pre-select 4th on the other shaft ready for your next shift)

That is just a quick rough explaination. I am sure google will have long discription with pictures if you want to know more.
 
VIPERGTSR01
No. It is much like a regular manual transmission but the gears are separated on two different sets of shafts (1st,3rd,5th,7th on one shaft, 2nd,4th,6th on the other) a separate clutch controls each shaft allowing to preselect the next gear ready for your shift.

When you shift say 2nd - 3rd (by a paddle) the clutch engaging the shaft holding 2nd gear disengages and the clutch on the second shaft holding 3rd engages roughly the same time giving a near seemless shift (then when programed the computer will pre-select 4th on the other shaft ready for your next shift)

That is just a quick rough explaination. I am sure google will have long discription with pictures if you want to know more.
Click to expand...

Oh, that's right. I remember how it works now. Thanks for the explanation. 👍
 
VIPERGTSR01
No. It is much like a regular manual transmission but the gears are separated on two different sets of shafts (1st,3rd,5th,7th on one shaft, 2nd,4th,6th on the other) a separate clutch controls each shaft allowing to preselect the next gear ready for your shift.

When you shift say 2nd - 3rd (by a paddle) the clutch engaging the shaft holding 2nd gear disengages and the clutch on the second shaft holding 3rd engages roughly the same time giving a near seemless shift (then when programed the computer will pre-select 4th on the other shaft ready for your next shift)

That is just a quick rough explaination. I am sure google will have long discription with pictures if you want to know more.
Click to expand...
no the dsg is an auto box 2 clutchs not manual with 2 clutchs
 
Holdenhsvgtsr
no the dsg is an auto box 2 clutchs not manual with 2 clutchs
Click to expand...


Huh? Please explain what you mean.

DSG closely resembles a conventional manual transmission internally though the gears are split to two gear sets with their own clutch, the clutches and the gear pre-selection are controlled by a computer rather than the human. Yes it is 'clutchless' to the driver (no clutch pedal) but it works nothing like a conventional planetary automatic transmission.
 
It's still an automatic though, it's like a triptronic type transmission.
 
VIPERGTSR01
Huh? Please explain what you mean.

DSG closely resembles a conventional manual transmission internally though the gears are split to two gear sets with their own clutch, the clutches and the gear pre-selection are controlled by a computer rather than the human. Yes it is 'clutchless' to the driver (no clutch pedal) but it works nothing like a conventional planetary automatic transmission.
Click to expand...

i see what you mean now,ive read in several places that people say its an auto with 2 clutchs and some saying its a manual with 2 clutchs :confused:
 
Joey D
It's still an automatic though, it's like a triptronic type transmission.
Click to expand...


Triptronic is basically a conventional autotrans 'slushbox' with paddles (torque converter, planetary gearset, electro/hydraulic shifting etc) while DSG largely based off the manual trans to achieve a similar end result as the triptronic but faster, less delay and more efficient.


Yes it still shifts automatically I never denied that at all, but I am talking about how it functions internally which is nothing like a conventional Auto or triptronic.
 
Meh if it shifts for me it's an automatic, if I have to shift it's a manual. Either way, I still like the transmission.
 
Toronado
And do you honestly think that it will be long before a version makes its way into Porsche hands? That was what I was referring to, not that this invidual version of this very transmission would be put into the 911.
Click to expand...

Either way, if people boycotted Porsche for water-cooling their motors, how do you think they would react if they got a weird DSG? It's one of the most un-911 things you can do.

The tiptronic was an alternative to an automatic transmission, this is an alternative to a manual, something no purist really wants.
 
exigeracer
Either way, if people boycotted Porsche for water-cooling their motors, how do you think they would react if they got a weird DSG? It's one of the most un-911 things you can do.
Click to expand...
The Porsche purists are also the most hypocritical and contrived car enthusiasts in the world, who on a daily basis bombard any Porsche ever made that is not rear engined and air cooled with criticisms strictly because they are not rear engined and air cooled. And this is regardless of whether or not the cars they are lambasting have merits, like how the 928 was probably a better grand tourer or how certain models of the 944 and 968 were faster than the 911. Or how the Cayenne has made them stupid money. And you know what in any case? That hasn't stopped many successful models that were essentially the opposite of the 911 (Cayenne, 924/944/968, 928) from occurring, so the Porsche faithful obviously don't have as much of an actual pull as they have a ability to complain.
Exige Racer
The tiptronic was an alternative to an automatic transmission, this is an alternative to a manual, something no purist really wants.
Click to expand...
So you make it an alternative to the manual. Charge more for it for all I care. But not offering it straight out is stupid, especially if it is only because of what the Porsche elite say.
 
With your thinking, DSGs should be an option on all cars across the entire market.

You'll get the exact same elitist response from any car group. Have you ever spoken to the average Ferrari owner? It's worse than the P-crowd.

I'm not speaking of how Porsche's other models contradict the Porsche philosophy, I'm talking about how the DSG goes against the 911's basics. The only benefit you can have from a DSG on this kind of car is quicker shifting times, so offer it as an option on RS cars. That is the only place I see it fitting. Bottom line is the DSG goes against the 911's principles.
 
exigeracer
With your thinking, DSGs should be an option on all cars across the entire market.
Click to expand...
It should.
exigeracer
You'll get the exact same elitist response from any car group. Have you ever spoken to the average Ferrari owner? It's worse than the P-crowd.
Click to expand...
Than they don't buy the option. Simple as that. Not offering it because the elitists wouldn't like it is a downright stupid reason to not offer it, because the Porsche elitists would complain about it and proceed to buy it anyways. And in any case, the F1 tranny didn't seem to bother too awful many Ferrari people, if I remember correctly, considering I'm pretty sutre it far outsells the normal manual now. Only the early ones where it was hard to reverse really pissed people off.
exigeracer
I'm talking about how the DSG goes against the 911's basics.
Click to expand...
And Tiptronic does? You didn't seem to have a problem with that.
exigeracer
The only benefit you can have from a DSG on this kind of car is quicker shifting times, so offer it as an option on RS cars. That is the only place I see it fitting.
Click to expand...
So, if it only fits in with track-biased cars, why in hell is it on any Volkswagen or Audi at all?
exigeracer
Bottom line is the DSG goes against the 911's principles.
Click to expand...
So does AWD, automatic transmissions, targa tops, convertibles, water cooled engines and even turbos, if you want to play that angle. So, considering many of those made the 911 much better, why can't DSG even be offered as an option on the Turbo? Especially when you can get a straight up slushbox in the car. Because the Porsche elite don't like it? Please.
 
This just in, the next Porsche 911 will be a mid-size family sedan, priced just above the Toyota Camry, yet still slotted below Audi's lineup.

Why have brand image or heritage or tradition at all? Why did people care that Land Rover destroyed decades of Discovery nomenclature with the LR3? Why doesn't Lotus offer a sequential box on any of their cars, even if they have one developed and tested for the Elise chassis?

Have you seen a Porsche press package for any one of their cars? Every single bit of it is based on racing and motorsport heritage. It's like watching a friggin' propoganda movie. Even the Cayenne package is all about previous track successes. They want to maintain those important ties to their past in what they build presently. The fundementals of each previous Porsche model play a large role in the cars they currently produce. These are their ideas, not my opinions.

Porsche has created a machine that sells well and performs well too, even with all of the extra little add-ons that make it more comfortable for the average consumer. But which Porsche perform the best for the car enthusiasts? It is always, without fail, the lightest, simplest and most entertaining models. The GT3 has always been a favorite because of how much of the original Porsche spirit it has retained. You don't see the lame-o Targas winning any sort of review or comparison. A DSG-equipped car would sell more for Porsche, so has automatic transmissions and convertibles etc, but putting the DSG into the 911 would not create "the perfect car" amongst the models that mean anything to me and you.

Toronado
And Tiptronic does? You didn't seem to have a problem with that.
Click to expand...

That was 15 years ago. I've moved on.

Toronado
So, if it only fits in with track-biased cars, why in hell is it on any Volkswagen or Audi at all?
Click to expand...

Because normal, non-car enthusiasts that don't know what a racing line is think it's cool. No other reason.
 
exigeracer
This just in, the next Porsche 911 will be a mid-size family sedan, priced just above the Toyota Camry, yet still slotted below Audi's lineup.
Click to expand...
The objectivity of your opinion is starting to be called into question.

exigeracer
Why have brand image or heritage or tradition at all?
Click to expand...
See above.

exigeracer
Why did people care that Land Rover destroyed decades of Discovery nomenclature with the LR3?
Click to expand...
No one really did.

exigeracer
Why doesn't Lotus offer a sequential box on any of their cars, even if they have one developed and tested for the Elise chassis?
Click to expand...
Well, being a Lotus I'd imagine they don't know if it would hold up over the life of the vehicle.

exigeracer
Have you seen a Porsche press package for any one of their cars? Every single bit of it is based on racing and motorsport heritage. It's like watching a friggin' propoganda movie. Even the Cayenne package is all about previous track successes. They want to maintain those important ties to their past in what they build presently. The fundementals of each previous Porsche model play a large role in the cars they currently produce. These are their ideas, not my opinions.
Click to expand...
And what in hell does any of that have to do with offering the DSG transmission as an option? You are acting as if, by wanting the DSG at least offered, I want manual tranmissions banned or something.
Yes, I have seen a Porsche press pack. Hell, half of the Porsche website is dedicated to how what model won what race. And how would offering a faster shifting manual transmission hurt the Porsche name any more than, say, the Cayenne does? How would putting DSG in the 911 be a horrible thing when compared to the straight up, honest to god, torque-converter-equipped slushbox that you can very easily get in the iconic 911 Turbo by giving the dealer $3420? Which great race car from Porsche used a torque converter? The 935 Moby Dick? The DSG tranmission is far closer to the tranny used in the RS Spider than the Tiptronic will ever be, yet it is so bad for performance that it will dilute the entire brand image?
And the real funny thing? You say only allow DSG on the RS cars, like the GT3 and GT2. Which is funny, simply because you want the cars closest to the track counterparts to be burdened by such a sin of a posuer tranmission.

exigeracer
That was 15 years ago. I've moved on.
Click to expand...
How could the crusader of Porsche justice simply forget about such a smear on the Porsche name simply because time has passed?
So it is irrelavent when it doesn't prove your point correct? Good to know.

exigeracer
Because normal, non-car enthusiasts that don't know what a racing line is think it's cool. No other reason.
Click to expand...
Ah, yes. Not because it is a good alternative to a manual, but because the owners are yuppies. I'll remember that next time I see a Veyron.

exigeracer
A DSG-equipped car would sell more for Porsche, so has automatic transmissions and convertibles etc, but putting the DSG into the 911 would not create "the perfect car" amongst the models that mean anything to me and you.
Click to expand...
And you couldn't have just said that, instead of saying how it was a horrible idea that went against the entire philosophy of Porsche; and how by offering the DSG, the 911 would lose all of its character ant turn into the Camry of supercars?
 
I'm still confused; Why is the DSG transmission a bad idea for Porsche? From where I stand, I'd say its one of the best things Porsche could add to the 911 (and the rest of the crew) given the performance gains the transmission has over the standard slushboxes that are already optional. Personally speaking, the DSG setup is the ultimate transmission, offering faster-than-manual shift speeds, limited power losses, and when the need presents itself, the ability to drive alike an automatic (although, not quite there yet...).

So, how this is worse than the current Tiptronic slushbox is completely beyond me...

...And if it comes down to racing development with transmissions like these, did Porsche not run something similar back in the '80s, much less, Audi's versions in the old Quattro?
 
VIPERGTSR01
No. It is much like a regular manual transmission but the gears are separated on two different sets of shafts (1st,3rd,5th,7th on one shaft, 2nd,4th,6th on the other)
Click to expand...

Little off topic here but this reminded me of an old friend who ruined his transmission somehow and lost all the gears on the bottom half of the stick's range... As in... 2nd, 4th, Reverse.
It was always a trip to ride with him because he didn't get it fixed, he'd just run up to redline and skip a gear (and reverse was always the "fred flintstone" approach). :lol:
 
Kent
It was always a trip to ride with him because he didn't get it fixed, he'd just run up to redline and skip a gear (and reverse was always the "fred flintstone" approach). :lol:
Click to expand...

:lol: That's priceless... would have been great to get on video.

You trusted your life to that guy though?:nervous:
 
I'm not going to bother talking about the tiptronic, or the other un-Porschelike features found on their cars today, because that isn't what this thread is about.

Toronado
Ah, yes. Not because it is a good alternative to a manual, but because the owners are yuppies. I'll remember that next time I see a Veyron.
Click to expand...

So what are the advantages of a performance gearbox in a car that isn't a performance car?

Toronado
And you couldn't have just said that, instead of saying how it was a horrible idea [...] ?
Click to expand...

Well there you go. I guess we value a performance car, and the optimal transmission, differently. :boggled:
 
exigeracer
So what are the advantages of a performance gearbox in a car that isn't a performance car?
Click to expand...

Not everyone can afford or really have the need for a performance car, but like a sporty feeling. So sales is an advantage.
 
But Toronado is suggesting offering it as an option at a premium cost on any car on sale today. Can you justify over a thousand dollars for a "sporty feeling"?
 

Latest Posts

Back