List of duplicated Mazda MX-5

[Famine]

I fully understand that you would rather them be categorized and sorted better than they are currently, I get that and I approve. When I say that you're accepting PD's line of thinking, I'm implying that we don't need that many versions of practically the same car. And no, I don't think we actually need a right hand drive and left hand drive of the basically the same car.

Why?

See, I'm all about choice and I'm happy that gamers in the USA and Europe get to choose LHD cars while gamers in the UK, Australia and Japan get to choose RHD cars. It adds to the personal feel of the game.

But more than that, the history of Gran Turismo has been one of mixing the expensive and high end sports and racecars with the every day - to get to drive your own car. My own car isn't a LHD Miata, RHD Eunos or LHD MX-5 - it's a RHD MX-5 and that's what I get to drive. Better yet, I don't get the pleasure of driving my own car at the expense of LHD Miata, RHD Eunos or LHD MX-5 owners - their cars are in too!

I'd even be right behind LHD/RHD swaps being in the game.

In that regard, PD could simply offer one car, and upon selection of that car offer the option to choose which side you want to drive, how hard could that possibly be?

That's covered by my suggestion - but can you imagine the fury coming from owners' clubs that Gran Turismo allowed you to pick, brand new a RHD car that was never RHD or a LHD car that was never LHD? I imagine it'd probably come strongest from Ford Australia/Holden fans and various niche Japanese marque (say... Nissan R32 Skyline) forums.

Given GT's twin pursuits of realism and every day cars, it makes more sense to offer it on models that could be either (say, the European market and UK market MX-5) and preserve models where it was one or the other (say the Miata and the Eunos Roadster), while allowing LHD/RHD swaps in GT Auto.

As for your Corvette analogy, your argument is that there's 16 different models but that's a less than the Miata and yet the Corvette dates back to 1953 so there's going to be more generations and models to choose from.

Actually, I don't have an argument with the Corvette line-up, except there's not enough of them. But I'm like that with all the cars in the game.

The point was that if you look at the car list and go "MX-5, Miata, Eunos Roadster, they're all the same and there's 35 of them" despite there being four generations and five engines there, the Corvette list must look awful same-y too.

Of course it isn't, but neither is the MX-5/Miata/Roadster list.

The only real argument I have with the Corvette line-up is that they have two models of the C5 Z06, one 2000 model and one 2004 model, its the EXACT same car except that there was a 20hp increase from 2001 to 2002 model years and one is a standard and one is premium. That really doesn't justify needing an additional car model for a 20hp increase

Works for me. Especially if I was a 2000 Corvette Z06 owner.

and why the Hell is one a standard and one a premium when the interior and exterior was completely unchanged between those years? Simply stupid.

I'd say contractual and legal. Which is pretty much the same thing.

Most people don't want a new model in game for a few hp increase or a new cupholder added.

Most people wouldn't drive either model. But for the guys who own the two different cars in real life, they'd really appreciate it. So I'd support that.

 

[Johnnypenso]

And for about the 3rd time now in this thread, I agreed with better categorization when it comes to LH/RH drive models, but I still have a problem with too many similar models that only have a few hp increase or an extra cupholder added. They drive the same in game, its not adding anything to have them there other than to jack up the car count.

I don't disagree that it's silly, but I'm a practical person by nature. So the way I look at it is.

1. PD loves it's car count, so they aren't going away.
2. Standards are coming back, the models are already created and in the game, they aren't going away.

So they aren't going anywhere, best option is to organize them better in the garage to have less menu clutter. That won't happen either like most of our practical suggestions for GT, but it's nice to spitball ideas around.

 

[Blkout]

Why?

See, I'm all about choice and I'm happy that gamers in the USA and Europe get to choose LHD cars while gamers in the UK, Australia and Japan get to choose RHD cars. It adds to the personal feel of the game.

But more than that, the history of Gran Turismo has been one of mixing the expensive and high end sports and racecars with the every day - to get to drive your own car. My own car isn't a LHD Miata, RHD Eunos or LHD MX-5 - it's a RHD MX-5 and that's what I get to drive. Better yet, I don't get the pleasure of driving my own car at the expense of LHD Miata, RHD Eunos or LHD MX-5 owners - their cars are in too!

I'd even be right behind LHD/RHD swaps being in the game.That's covered by my suggestion - but can you imagine the fury coming from owners' clubs that Gran Turismo allowed you to pick, brand new a RHD car that was never RHD or a LHD car that was never LHD? I imagine it'd probably come strongest from Ford Australia/Holden fans and various niche Japanese marque (say... Nissan R32 Skyline) forums.

Given GT's twin pursuits of realism and every day cars, it makes more sense to offer it on models that could be either (say, the European market and UK market MX-5) and preserve models where it was one or the other (say the Miata and the Eunos Roadster), while allowing LHD/RHD swaps in GT Auto.Actually, I don't have an argument with the Corvette line-up, except there's not enough of them. But I'm like that with all the cars in the game.

The point was that if you look at the car list and go "MX-5, Miata, Eunos Roadster, they're all the same and there's 35 of them" despite there being four generations and five engines there, the Corvette list must look awful same-y too.

Of course it isn't, but neither is the MX-5/Miata/Roadster list.Works for me. Especially if I was a 2000 Corvette Z06 owner.I'd say contractual and legal. Which is pretty much the same thing.Most people wouldn't drive either model. But for the guys who own the two different cars in real life, they'd really appreciate it. So I'd support that.

Fair enough, your argument boils down to poor categorization and more freedom of choice. My argument is simply too much choice between too similar models. We will never agree on this due to our beliefs so there's no point in further debating it. PD sides you with your beliefs on more choice, so in that regard, you're fortunate. But back to what I suggested about the choice of choosing LHD/RHD models when you purchase the car in game, I didn't mean that PD should give you that option if it was never available. I simply meant that if a car was offered in both versions, list it as one car in the dealership menu, then upon selection the choice to choose its real life driver side. I wasn't implying they should make the choice for LHD/RHD available to every car in the game if it wasn't an option in real life.

I don't disagree that it's silly, but I'm a practical person by nature. So the way I look at it is.

1. PD loves it's car count, so they aren't going away.
2. Standards are coming back, the models are already created and in the game, they aren't going away.

So they aren't going anywhere, best option is to organize them better in the garage to have less menu clutter. That won't happen either like most of our practical suggestions for GT, but it's nice to spitball ideas around.

My issue with GT's car count is simply that PD is bolstering its car count for marketing reasons to give it a selling point against its competition. I don't believe for one minute believe its for freedom of choice for the consumer.

 

[Famine]

Fair enough, your argument boils down to poor categorization and more freedom of choice. My argument is simply too much choice between too similar models. We will never agree on this due to our beliefs so there's no point in further debating it.

There's no such thing as "too much choice".

Given that these cars aren't taking the place of anything else, haven't been implemented to the exclusion of anything else and can't be replaced with anything else, they do no harm. Meanwhile they give players more freedom and they give people who own these cars a chance to actually drive them - removing them would remove that chance for no benefit whatsoever. So what's the problem?

As far as I can tell, the problem is that people think that "1,200 cars" means "1,200 different names" and when they encounter 35 MX-5s they think they've been swindled out of 34 cars (despite there being genuinely 13 different cars there and an attempt at providing for localised nameplates that misses the mark). "1,200 cars" means "1,200 make/model/engine/trim variants" and, to be fair, the MX-5/Miata/Roadster is a nice effort but because they've invented trims that don't exist they've sort of bollocksed up 20 from that list.

But back to what I suggested about the choice of choosing LHD/RHD models when you purchase the car in game, I didn't mean that PD should give you that option if it was never available. I simply meant that if a car was offered in both versions, list it as one car in the dealership menu, then upon selection the choice to choose its real life driver side. I wasn't implying they should make the choice for LHD/RHD available to every car in the game if it wasn't an option in real life.

That's little different from choosing Miata or Roadster...

My issue with GT's car count is simply that PD is bolstering its car count for marketing reasons to give it a selling point against its competition. I don't believe for one minute believe its for freedom of choice for the consumer.

PD don't do marketing. They only develop the game and I'm reasonably sure they say there's 1,200 cars because that's how many entries there are on the car table. I'd try to talk them into underreporting it to 900, by the categorisations I used earlier.

Sony Computer Entertainment do the marketing and I'm pretty sure that they report the 1,200 figure as a selling point, yes.

 

[Blkout]

There's no such thing as "too much choice".

Given that these cars aren't taking the place of anything else, haven't been implemented to the exclusion of anything else and can't be replaced with anything else, they do no harm. Meanwhile they give players more freedom and they give people who own these cars a chance to actually drive them - removing them would remove that chance for no benefit whatsoever. So what's the problem?

Clutter.

As far as I can tell, the problem is that people think that "1,200 cars" means "1,200 different names" and when they encounter 35 MX-5s they think they've been swindled out of 34 cars (despite there being genuinely 13 different cars there and an attempt at providing for localised nameplates that misses the mark). "1,200 cars" means "1,200 make/model/engine/trim variants" and, to be fair, the MX-5/Miata/Roadster is a nice effort but because they've invented trims that don't exist they've sort of bollocksed up 20 from that list.That's little different from choosing Miata or Roadster...PD don't do marketing. They only develop the game and I'm reasonably sure they say there's 1,200 cars because that's how many entries there are on the car table. I'd try to talk them into underreporting it to 900, by the categorisations I used earlier.

Sony Computer Entertainment do the marketing and I'm pretty sure that they report the 1,200 figure as a selling point, yes.

Misleading.

 

[Famine]

Clutter.

So ultimately you agree that the only issue is the presentation. The cars should still be there and by presenting them in a different manner which removes the clutter, the problem is solved.

Misleading.

So ultimately you agree that the only issue is the presentation. The cars should still be there and by presenting them in a different manner which removes any doubt as to the number of genuinely different vehicles within the game, the problem is solved.

Glad we could sort that out.

 

[Tornado]

There's no such thing as "too much choice".

There is such a thing as illusion of choice, though. The Miatas aren't even the worst example, but with the barely-above-zero effort put into acting like they are separate cars (though they still have more effort put into them over, say, the Daihatsu ones which they didn't even change the textures on the cars); but they still err quite a bit on the wrong side of that equation for a game whose marketing draws so much attention to raw numbers and whose director apologized directly for continuing to propagate the concept in general when asked directly about it.

 

[Conquerer]

Why should Miata/MX-5/Eunos Roadster owners get the benefit of all this customization and choice and not other car owners (save for a few models like NSX, RX-7, etc.)? I own a '95 240SX which is not in the game and I have to settle for either a '93 Silvia or a '97/98 240SX with a different front end (incorrectly listed as a '96 as well). And you know what? I'm fine with that. And personally, I could hardly care less whether they had a '95 or '96 model if they were to add one because you know what? They're basically the exact same car.

And just because my exact model is not in the game, does that mean I want PD to use its resources to create all the models of the 240SX/200SX/Silvia? Nope. It would take too much time without a proper payoff -- it's not worth it. PD would be far better off using this time to create brand new cars.

What's been done already is done. We can't change that PD added all these cars to GT4 and thus to GT5/GT6. But they are almost all standard cars. We can change how they will be presented in GT7 on PS4. As Famine is saying, they all have different interiors. Do any of you truly support the idea of PD using its resources to faithfully recreate every single one of these cars' interiors? Would that be a proper idea? Rather than working on new cars and their interiors?

No, it's simply not worth it. Just keep the three premium models we have now and hey, I'm feeling generous so let's also let PD create a premium version of the '98-'04 model so everyone can enjoy their generation's model. We don't need PD to waste its time -- which already moves at a very, very slow place -- intricately detailing all the different interiors when about 99% of GT players simply don't care about all the Miatas or which one they will buy in the game.

The idea that you can't have too much is not a proper argument because it only applies to a very select group of cars. It's an irresponsible and undisciplined position for PD to create for itself. Why should Miata owners get the benefit and not Corvette C4 owners? Am I saying I want PD to add all the C4 models to the game? Nope. I'm perfectly fine with the one model we have now, however my only wish is that it were a premium. Sure, maybe a '93 Corvette owner would appreciate their exact model in the game, but we come back to the exact same argument -- you can't please everyone. Ideally it would be great for everyone if we had every single model of every car, but we cannot do that. If we cannot do that for every car, why are we trying to do it for a very select group of cars? This type of thinking just does not make sense. There's no way to realistically rationalize it.

And like I said, yes, the cars are already there in GT6. And I know Kaz has said standards will probably be in GT7, but including far outdated assets is mental in today's gaming environment so ideally we would scrap all the standard models (of course the more we can convert to premium the better) and we don't have to worry about whether to include all the different Miatas, RX-7s, Skylines because they're all outdated. We start fresh with the current premiums we have -- which PD hasn't been nearly as ridiculous with for their selections -- and continue on that line of thinking and stay away from ridiculous over inflated car counts that fool untrained people into thinking the game has way more cars than it actually does.

 

[Famine]

Why should Miata/MX-5/Eunos Roadster owners get the benefit of all this customization and choice and not other car owners?

I agree - but the solution isn't to cut cars out and limit choice.

Ideally it would be great for everyone if we had every single model of every car, but we cannot do that.

Why not? It's just a question of manpower and time.

Well, licences too. Which is a lot of the problem.