The inevitable EV thread

[Wolfman_UK]

Whether we like it or not, the world is going Electric Vehicle. Couldn't see a similar thread so thought I would start one.

I love the sound of an ICE car (specifically Aston Martin V8) but am now the owner of a new Polestar 2 dual motor. Having purchased the performance software update, it now has 475bhp and 502lb ft of torque. Other than the range (in which I average 250 miles on a charge) the change to an EV is not as difficult or challenging as I expected it to be. The instant torque is laughably mental and I actually hope traffic lights turn to red as I approach, knowing that there isn't much that will out accelerate it upon turning amber.

Most journeys are carried out serenely but the devil sat on one shoulder quite often pushes the angel off the other and that accelerator gets pushed just a little harder. Overtakes are carried out in outrageously quick fashion with the 20 to 70mph band despatched in very quick time. I have taken many people out, in which there are generally 2 reactions - laugh out loud at how quick it is (for a 2.1 tonne car) or pure shock white knuckles due to the sheer acceleration.

Even the move to one pedal driving did not take as long to adapt to as I was expecting and now I couldn't see me driving any other way.

I know it isn't supercar quick but a +/- 4 second 0-62 (depending on conditions, state of charge, passengers, etc...) is not shabby for a £51k car.

The Google auto infotainment system has not yet let me down, although there are people who have struggled with it. The latest software update included Youtube as an app which is proper handy when stuck not moving for some time.

(Delivery day couldn't have been wetter! - not worried about showing the registration plate as it now has a private plate on).

 

[wfooshee]

I don't know why EVs are "inevitable." Until you can dump electricity into a battery as quickly as you can dump fuel into a tank, an EV is not something I could live with. It's not just range anxiety, it's needing to be parked for so long while on the highway. Obviously the super-chargers help with that, but it's still a 20 or 30 minute stop instead of 10, and it's not full in that time. And you have to find one.

Obviously, EVs are zero-emission, but that's just the car. Unless your electricity is nuclear or hydroelectric, there are still emissions associated with driving the thing. And if you think no petroleum is involved in an EV just because you don't need fuel, then you don't understand much about lubricants, plastics, or just about any other synthetic material. I won't even start with the metals needed for batteries.

Simply put, electricity, stored as potential energy, is far more cumbersome than liquid fuel.

I am really excited to see the research in hydrogen-fueled vehicles, either fuel-cell electric power or hydrogen internal combustion. Hydrogen is expensive and would have to come down significantly to be a competitive energy source, and getting hydrogen is problematic in the amount of energy needed get it. (Where does that energy come from?) But there isn't a cleaner-burning fuel. Hydrogen internal combustions still produces nitrogen oxides, and hydrogen internal combustions engines are less efficient than gasoline engines, so fuel cells seem to be a better alternative. You generate electricity from the fuel cell instead of charging the battery from an external source, but the vehicle is still electric.

 

[Danoff]

I don't know why EVs are "inevitable." Until you can dump electricity into a battery as quickly as you can dump fuel into a tank, an EV is not something I could live with.

It takes you zero time to fill up an EV because it does so in your garage while you sleep. You're talking about a trip of hundreds of miles. If that's something you're "living" with, your circumstances are unusual.

 

[wfooshee]

I make trips of hundreds of miles quite often, both for work and for myself. Even if it wasn't something other than occasional, I can't imagine needing to do a 12- or 18-hour trip to Grandma's for the holidays, with a family, and having to find something for the kids to do for 25 or 30 minutes every 200 miles, assuming I can find a super charger. And I intentionally shorted the range, because I'm not going to pass a super charger when I'm down to a third or less of my range. If someone says "Fly instead of drive," they've obviously never flown during holidays, nor have they had to pay to fly a family. (If I have to go to Texas from Florida by myself, it's on a plane. If I have to take a spouse and three kids, no way am I shelling out for that airfare.)

I did have access to a short-range electric city car for about a week some time back. My son has a Fiat 500e that he was towing behind his RV on a trip home from D.C. He had to fly out for a week while he was here and gave me the Fiat to have the "electric experience." I didn't have 220-volt charging, just 110, so charging time sucked, but had I paid an electrician some ungodly sum to put a charging outlet in the garage, that would have been better. If the car was depleted, 110 volts would not charge that car fully overnight, even though its range is less than 100 miles. All of that said, I only used it to get to work, a 2.5-mile trip, and to get groceries, go to the gym, whatever, generally less than 50 miles a day. I only got it really low on one day, and it was about 75% the next morning, but that got me through the day just fine.

I put one of those watt-hour gauges on the outlet I charged it from, and it was certainly cheaper to drive than my Miata, but not as much so as I expected. I'm not sure it would have been cheaper to drive than a gasoline Fiat 500. It was a good experience for a local, keep-it-close-to-home kind of car, that didn't need to carry very much stuff, and obviously not the kind of car I'm talking about for highway travelling.

Any EV I could even possibly consider would need a 400-mile range, and charge to at least 300 miles in 15 minutes. Outside of that, not even remotely interested.

Another factor that just popped into my head. Aren't some states either considering, or actually doing, this: charging higher rates to register EVs, since they don't pay gasoline taxes? I found a page on myev.com (but the article is not dated so I have no idea when it was written) that lists 17 states with EV annual fees, ranging from $50 to $200. That's probably still way less than the tax the states collect from gasoline and diesel, though. There's also been talk of use taxes, taxing for the distance driven. Well, if I'm paying tax on gasoline, I'm already paying a use tax... That does make sense for EVs, if it's enforceable and the mileage data can be collected reliably.

 

[Centroid]

Battery technology is improving all the time. A 200 mile real world range was only the province of expensive cars, now it is the minimum you expect for all but city cars. Charging speeds are improving too but not as quickly. But this is just improvements to existing technology, with more to come. There's a new battery in production with almost double the energy density of the best batteries out there.

But there are lots of battery technologies in development which will push things even further. It would be extremely unlikely that none of these reach the market. But if the best of these do reach the market, we might actually get to the stage where we laugh at the pathetically small range of ICE vehicles.

The cheap price of gasoline and comparatively expensive price of electricity in the US does remove one of the major incentives to buy and EV but they are still easier to drive, lower maintenance, more reliable, longer lasting (yes even the batteries) and lower emission (even if the electricity used to charge them is on the worlds dirtiest grid, they're still cleaner overall).

 

[Danoff]

I make trips of hundreds of miles quite often, both for work and for myself. Even if it wasn't something other than occasional, I can't imagine needing to do a 12- or 18-hour trip to Grandma's for the holidays, with a family, and having to find something for the kids to do for 25 or 30 minutes every 200 miles, assuming I can find a super charger.

It is nice to have at least one non-EV still for road trips, or a plug-in hybrid. But for most people that's not the bulk of the driving.

 

[Wolfman_UK]

@wfooshee EV's are not only inevitable, they are here and here to stay. The sheer number on the road compared to Hydrogen vehicles is almost incalculable. Until they perfect a Hydrogen powertrain, which is no easy feat, they will lag behind. (We have a couple in my organisation and they rarely get used despite being available for anyone to drive).

The infrastructure to re-fuel them is woeful, whereas despite the UK charging infrastructure being crap compared to many other countries, there is still somewhere to charge your car almost anywhere you can re-fuel an ICE car.

I am not an advocate for EV's and give me a decent ICE car any day, but I have an EV so am going to embrace it. The range, charging times and places to charge will all improve considerably.

There will always be disagreements between the pro's and con's of an EV, much like there is for all types of powertrain.

 

[Carlos Fandango]

I make trips of hundreds of miles quite often, both for work and for myself. Even if it wasn't something other than occasional, I can't imagine needing to do a 12- or 18-hour trip to Grandma's for the holidays, with a family, and having to find something for the kids to do for 25 or 30 minutes every 200 miles, assuming I can find a super charger. And I intentionally shorted the range, because I'm not going to pass a super charger when I'm down to a third or less of my range. If someone says "Fly instead of drive," they've obviously never flown during holidays, nor have they had to pay to fly a family. (If I have to go to Texas from Florida by myself, it's on a plane. If I have to take a spouse and three kids, no way am I shelling out for that airfare.)

I did have access to a short-range electric city car for about a week some time back. My son has a Fiat 500e that he was towing behind his RV on a trip home from D.C. He had to fly out for a week while he was here and gave me the Fiat to have the "electric experience." I didn't have 220-volt charging, just 110, so charging time sucked, but had I paid an electrician some ungodly sum to put a charging outlet in the garage, that would have been better. If the car was depleted, 110 volts would not charge that car fully overnight, even though its range is less than 100 miles. All of that said, I only used it to get to work, a 2.5-mile trip, and to get groceries, go to the gym, whatever, generally less than 50 miles a day. I only got it really low on one day, and it was about 75% the next morning, but that got me through the day just fine.

I put one of those watt-hour gauges on the outlet I charged it from, and it was certainly cheaper to drive than my Miata, but not as much so as I expected. I'm not sure it would have been cheaper to drive than a gasoline Fiat 500. It was a good experience for a local, keep-it-close-to-home kind of car, that didn't need to carry very much stuff, and obviously not the kind of car I'm talking about for highway travelling.

Any EV I could even possibly consider would need a 400-mile range, and charge to at least 300 miles in 15 minutes. Outside of that, not even remotely interested.

Another factor that just popped into my head. Aren't some states either considering, or actually doing, this: charging higher rates to register EVs, since they don't pay gasoline taxes? I found a page on myev.com (but the article is not dated so I have no idea when it was written) that lists 17 states with EV annual fees, ranging from $50 to $200. That's probably still way less than the tax the states collect from gasoline and diesel, though. There's also been talk of use taxes, taxing for the distance driven. Well, if I'm paying tax on gasoline, I'm already paying a use tax... That does make sense for EVs, if it's enforceable and the mileage data can be collected reliably.

Everyone gets excited about long range, and while it does provide some level of flexibility, 99% of the time it’s largely irrelevant for most people (just like 3 second 0-60 times). 300 miles is about 4 hours of constant freeway driving. After that, our family at least, are all overdue a bathroom break, the dog needs a walk, and we all want food, and that would provide enough time for a decent charge. Consequently when folks ask me the range of my car, I normally answer that it is further than my bladder.

The $200 tax on EV is interesting. I think most would still see that as good value, but equally you can see it being the start of a slippery slope. Where we live, that would just about get you two tanks of petrol/gas.

I’m fortunate to have solar panels and a home charger - having a good home charging solution is a game changer IMO as it takes away the need to think about public charging except those times where long trips are planned, and my car comes with a pretty decent route planner to be able to manage that exception.

Don’t get me wrong here though - given the right sequence of numbers on a Saturday night, I’m having a Singer DLS and a McLaren F1, but equally, I know my EV is a really good product and does a lot of what I need it to do really well, and only costs a fraction of our other vehicle to run. I don’t see a world where our family does not have at least one EV going forwards.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

BMW, GM, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes, and Stellantis group together to create their own charging network in North America. They plan to build 30,000 charging points with both CCS and NACS connectors.

https://www.hyundainews.com/en-us/releases/3893

• Seven major global automakers – BMW Group, General Motors, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes-Benz Group, Stellantis NV – will create an unprecedented new charging network joint venture that will significantly expand access to high-powered charging in North America
• Targeting to install at least 30,000 high-powered charge points in urban and highway locations to ensure customers can charge whenever and wherever they need
• With a focus on delivering an elevated customer experience, the network will provide reliability, high-powered charging capability, digital integration, appealing locations, various amenities while charging, and use renewable energy
• Charging stations will be accessible to all EV customers, offering both Combined Charging System (CCS) and North American Charging Standard (NACS) connectors
• First stations are scheduled to open in the summer of 2024

The joint venture will include the development of a new, high-powered charging network with at least 30,000 chargers to make zero-emission driving even more attractive for millions of customers.

With generational investments in public charging being implemented on the federal and state levels, the joint venture will leverage public and private funds to accelerate the installation of high-powered charging for customers. The new charging stations will be accessible to all battery-powered electric vehicles from any automaker using Combined Charging System (CCS) or North American Charging Standard (NACS) and are expected to meet or exceed the spirit and requirements of the U.S. National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) program.

The joint venture aims to become the leading network of reliable high-powered charging stations in North America.

The joint venture is expected to be established this year, subject to customary closing conditions and regulatory approvals.

The first stations are expected to open in the United States in the summer of 2024 and in Canada at a later stage. Each site will be equipped with multiple high-powered DC chargers, making long-distance journeys easier for customers. In line with the sustainability strategies of all seven automakers, the joint venture intends to power the charging network solely by renewable energy.

Focused on customer comfort and charging ease, the stations will be in convenient locations, offering canopies wherever possible and amenities such as restrooms, food service and retail operations either nearby or within the same complex. A select number of flagship stations will be equipped with additional amenities, delivering a premier experience designed to showcase the future of charging.

Initial plans call for the deployment of charging stations in metropolitan areas and along major highways, including connecting corridors and vacation routes, aiming to offer a charging station wherever people may choose to live, work and travel.

The functions and services of the network will allow for seamless integration with participating automakers’ in-vehicle and in-app experiences, including reservations, intelligent route planning and navigation, payment applications, transparent energy management and more. In addition, the network will leverage Plug & Charge technology to further enhance the customer experience.