The Inconvenient Truth About Hybrids: Hybrids Owners Get More Tickets?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Joey D
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It's no secret that car guys like ourselves aren't known for being hybrid friendly, but come on. Too quiet for blind people now? That's a bit rediculous.

Autoblog
We've reported on the silent dangers of hybrids before, and it appears that word of their possible threat to blind people has made it to the halls of Congress. A bill is being introduced today in the House of Representatives that calls for the U.S. Department of Transportation to study whether or not the feds need to regulate a minimum sound level for all cars and, if so, what that minimum should be. If passed, the entire auto industry would have two years to comply. The issue revolves around blind people not being able to hear hybrids while they're running solely on battery power, since they produce much less noise than a normal car with an internal combustion engine. We've heard no reports, however, of hybrids being involved in accidents with pedestrians where the vehicle's silent operation was at fault, but clearly there are many who would like to keep it that way.

The state of Maryland actually passed similar legislation last month, and the industry's own Society of Automotive Engineers already has a task force studying whether or not the decibel level, or lack thereof, produced by hybrids is something we should be worrying about.

Our question is that if such a bill were passed, what technology would automakers use to increase the sound a hybrid makes while running on battery power? Might we hear hybrids with external speakers pumping out the soundtrack of a fossil fuel-burning V8?

[Source: Automotive News, sub. req'd]
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We need to find more sensible attacks on the Hybrid issue.

I don't know how big of an issue it really is, but it certainly can't be a big enough issue to try and be a possible nail in the coffin for hybrids. I'd actually be surprised if it gets passed because compensating for the lack of noise isn't exactly something that makes sense. That and hybrids aren't really in danger of running blind people over. They're already going slow enough to be able to stop in the five feet that would be required when you see a blind person. I might expect to see more complaints from blind people rear ending them because they couldn't tell there was a slow moving object in front of them.

How would they solve the problem? It would probably be something ridiculously annoying like a noise maker on the axle or maybe speakers blasting some tree hugging propaganda or some kind of terrible music. I don't see them trying to make their cars sound like the "enemy," big petrol engines.
 
Philly
Too quiet for deaf people now? That's a bit rediculous.
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I agree, it is ridiculous that deaf people can't see yet can hear cars! :lol:
I think you meant "Too quiet for blind people now?" especially since blind people was written right in the article.
 
buickgnx88
I agree, it is ridiculous that deaf people can't see yet can hear cars! :lol:
I think you meant "Too quiet for blind people now?" especially since blind people was written right in the article.
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Oh, my! :lol: Thanks for catching that. Fixed.
 
The too quiet for blind people issue has been bounced around for a while, but this is the first time that it has been brought up in Congress.

It seems laughable and I doubt this would pass. That would mean we have minimum and maximum volume levels for cars now.


All that said, I can understand the gripe. My brother's Prius is noiseless at slow speeds unless there is some sort of gravel on the road to crunch under the tires. I even remember a movie (How To Lose a Guy in 10 Days?) where a guy driving a Prius rolls up behind his friend silently and hits him in the back of the knee with the bumper. So, it isn't an unknown issue, but as the article states there is no record of a pedestrian being hit by a silent running Prius.

I am not sure what forcing a minimum sound requirement would do really. I'm not sure it is absolutely necessary. I can only see this being a major problem on streets with slow speed limits, such as neighborhoods, where the driver needs minimal reaction time to stop. And if it is one of those drivers that stays slow all the time just to get off on the thrill of running silently, then they should be cited for being a D-bag. They create problems for more than just blind people just by existing.
 
Philly
How would they solve the problem? It would probably be something ridiculously annoying like a noise maker on the axle or maybe speakers blasting some tree hugging propaganda or some kind of terrible music. I don't see them trying to make their cars sound like the "enemy," big petrol engines.
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Why not an adaption of the HGV reversing warnings?

"Warning, warning, this vehicle is moving, stand clear." I imagine New York would be quite harmonic with 100s going off at the same time.
 
ExigeEvan
Why not an adaption of the HGV reversing warnings?

"Warning, warning, this vehicle is moving, stand clear." I imagine New York would be quite harmonic with 100s going off at the same time.
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Nah, they would be more like "Ey, get outta da way! Don't make me get outta my car!" [/New York Accent]
 
Philly
It's no secret that car guys like ourselves aren't known for being hybrid friendly, but come on. Too quiet for blind people now? That's a bit rediculous.
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as someone who is not blind i cant really comment.
but i can imagine what it is like to be walking across a street where you cant hear a car and then suddenly have a horn going off in your ear. scaring the living daylights out of you because you thought you'd carefully listened for traffic.

i liken your reaction to white people telling me, a black person, that racism doesn't exit. if you haven't lived it, what do YOU know?


i am 100% for it. an array of sounds could be available. from a beeping to a v8 sound. limit it to something that can be heard from 30 yards.
 
neanderthal
as someone who is not blind i cant really comment.
but i can imagine what it is like to be walking across a street where you cant hear a car and then suddenly have a horn going off in your ear. scaring the living daylights out of you because you thought you'd carefully listened for traffic.

i liken your reaction to white people telling me, a black person, that racism doesn't exit. if you haven't lived it, what do YOU know?


i am 100% for it. an array of sounds could be available. from a beeping to a v8 sound. limit it to something that can be heard from 30 yards.
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Haha a V8 sound? Doubt the hippies would go for that! :lol:
 
neanderthal
i am 100% for it. an array of sounds could be available. from a beeping to a v8 sound. limit it to something that can be heard from 30 yards.
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If it sounds like anything other than a car engine and I can hear it from my house it is not cool.


And like I said earlier, I don't see the benefit. No one has been hit because of this yet. So we are legislating against things that may or may not happen now just because a special interest group complained?

This is just a waste of taxpayers money in my opinion.
 
FoolKiller
If it sounds like anything other than a car engine and I can hear it from my house it is not cool.
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granted. i hadnt thought about that.


And like I said earlier, I don't see the benefit. No one has been hit because of this yet. So we are legislating against things that may or may not happen now just because a special interest group complained?

This is just a waste of taxpayers money in my opinion.
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the senate/ congress debating it is a waste of taxpayers money. this should merit not discussion. just pass it. the talk in question revolves around adding a $3 part to a select few cars. a cost that can be easily passed on to the consumer who buys it.
 
neanderthal
as someone who is not blind i cant really comment.
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I wasn't thinking about it from a discriminatory stance that the blind aren't significant enough or whatever for this. It just immediately registered to me as a very weak anti-Prius argument. Making a general statement that hybrids are bad because you can't hear them just doesn't seem like an argument with any strength at all.

FoolKiller
If it sounds like anything other than a car engine and I can hear it from my house it is not cool.
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I could very easily see people like me going crazy and having to restrain themselves from taking their anger out on the car. Making hybrids produce all sorts of annoying noises all over town would definitely be incredibly frustrating.

And then you can't guarantee that people won't toy with it and make it make their own noises, which makes it even worse. V8 noises? Please don't make me cry.
 
I think the most cost effective solution would be a playing card ticking against the spokes on the wheel... :lol:

But seriously... lots of cars are "quiet". Quiet in the sense that you can't really hear them over the din of traffic in the city. Or the airconditioning unit across the street... or...

I remember a time, maybe seven years ago, that I started up a Maxima (Cefiro) V6 in the showroom. The guy standing behind the car walks up and asks me to turn it on, so he can see the gauges lit up. He was pretty surprised that the car was on, already.

Now take a car that quiet... put it on the street, surround it with noisy, barking old cars... isn't that a danger to blind people?

Why don't we ask the blind ourselves?
 
niky
I think the most cost effective solution would be a playing card ticking against the spokes on the wheel... :lol:

But seriously... lots of cars are "quiet". Quiet in the sense that you can't really hear them over the din of traffic in the city. Or the airconditioning unit across the street... or...

I remember a time, maybe seven years ago, that I started up a Maxima (Cefiro) V6 in the showroom. The guy standing behind the car walks up and asks me to turn it on, so he can see the gauges lit up. He was pretty surprised that the car was on, already.

Now take a car that quiet... put it on the street, surround it with noisy, barking old cars... isn't that a danger to blind people?

Why don't we ask the blind ourselves?
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The thing is thought, it's not the audible sound the blind person would notice, its the lower, bass like frequencies they'd pick up on. So says my mum who works with deaf and blind children.
 
niky
I think the most cost effective solution would be a playing card ticking against the spokes on the wheel... :lol:
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This made me lol.

Now take a car that quiet... put it on the street, surround it with noisy, barking old cars... isn't that a danger to blind people?

Why don't we ask the blind ourselves?
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I don't think the issue here is in a city full of cars. US cities with these situations have already implemented visually impaired aids, such as audible sounds from crosswalk lights and so forth. In that instance I believe that unless they have DareDevil style sonar vision one car from another won't do any good.

I think the issue is a case of one car by itself on a crosswalk without a light. By law the responsibility is on the driver. Pedestrians have the right of way in that situation. However, I fear that the type of driver who bought a Prius early on to show the world how concerned for the environment they are has their head so far up their own nether regions to explore their own self-importance that they would not stop for a pedestrian at one of these crosswalks.

And that brings about one of the hurdles I see with this proposed law. Only new cars will have this noise. Every early adopter I know of hybrid technology loves their 1st gen hybrid because it shows they did it before it was trendy and that they care about the environment more than the others. Plus, at the premium price a hybrid vehicle sells for many owners will be reluctant to trade-in as often as before. Not to mention how many people will go out of their way to not have this noise maker on their previously quiet car. I know of too many people who love riding around in their silent machines.


All in all, personal opinion of the necessity of this aside, I think this will have so many hurdles to overcome. How long before people figure out that turning this off will just mean pulling a fuse?
 
I don't understand what the issue is, most of the noise from a car typically comes from the tires, not the engine if the Modern Marvels episode about highways is anything to go by. Also electric engines are fairly noisy with their whirring and whining. As far as I know blind people have increased other sense so they should be able to pick up the crackle of a rolling tire or the whir of an electric motor. They really don't have to be concerned until we have flying car that make zero noise....but by that time we should have invented something that allow the blind to see.
 
I have noticed that: engine noise is barely audible nowadays. Even without a "Performance" exhaust the Nova and Cabiro make a good deal of their own mechanical noise at Idle. Newer cars kind of make a whine and low purr. I find it terribly irritating.
 
Jim Prower
I have noticed that: engine noise is barely audible nowadays. Even without a "Performance" exhaust the Nova and Cabiro make a good deal of their own mechanical noise at Idle. Newer cars kind of make a whine and low purr. I find it terribly irritating.
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Ya my car ticks at idle because the French fail at making proper fuel injectors.
 
Well, I enjoy mechanical noise. I Don't enjoy lack of it. Buicks and Lexuses irritate me because of that. For some reason, white-collar 50-somethings seem to like quiet cars. Maybe it's because they have kids and kids are really noisy. I'd rather every car come with glasspacks or something standard.

The perceived quietness of a hybrid is really in the car, not outside of it. the tire noise is really what you hear, that is right. Tire noise is easy to dampen inside, though.

I wonder, then If this law was written by someone who drove a hybrid and thought "Hey, this car is really quiet. I wonder if anyone could hear me? Like the Blind. Yeah, gotta protect the Blind. I think I'll make a bill."
 
FoolKiller
Every early adopter I know of hybrid technology loves their 1st gen hybrid because it shows they did it before it was trendy and that they care about the environment more than the others.
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That's also the attitude I don't like about hybrid drivers. They seem to think they are better than everybody else because they care about the environment in their bandwagon earth muffin mobiles and because all the cool kids are doing it. The irony is that while they go on thinking about this, they criticize the sports car and truck crowd for being arrogant and not caring and not giving up their huge gas guzzling engines. Maybe if they didn't criticize people for having the same attitude they do...

Jim Prower
I have noticed that: engine noise is barely audible nowadays. Even without a "Performance" exhaust the Nova and Cabiro make a good deal of their own mechanical noise at Idle. Newer cars kind of make a whine and low purr. I find it terribly irritating.
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Are we talking about modern engine noises being annoying because they don't have all that clanking and banging of an older engine? I personally don't mind the low purr my car gives out at low revs, the whine it gives at higher engine speeds and the growl I get under heavy acceleration. Not hearing the engine when the car is on is an issue though. I was always bothered when I rode in my neighbor's Highlander hybrid that shut the engine off at stops.
 
Joey D
I don't understand what the issue is, most of the noise from a car typically comes from the tires, not the engine if the Modern Marvels episode about highways is anything to go by.
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You know, you are right. And I know tire noise can be affected by hwo well the tread lines up. So, if we mess up the tread pattern a bit it shoudl fix teh problem.

Sure we will see more hybrids hydroplaning, but the blind will be safe, right?

Philly
Are we talking about modern engine noises being annoying because they don't have all that clanking and banging of an older engine? I personally don't mind the low purr my car gives out at low revs, the whine it gives at higher engine speeds and the growl I get under heavy acceleration. Not hearing the engine when the car is on is an issue though. I was always bothered when I rode in my neighbor's Highlander hybrid that shut the engine off at stops.
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Not everyone can have the nice cars we have. :D I do enjoy the near silence at idle that can grow into a nice roar when I gun it. I'm sure your GTI (you still have that right) does it even better than my Rabbit.
 
Solution? Get hybrids off the road. They're just a band-aid anyway, and a highly toxic one at that. Better to see them off sooner rather than later.
 
Joey D - You forgot one major thing. Something that actually helps your argument.
Interest.
Especially with the credit prices the way they are. I don't know what the average interest % is on new-car purchases, but I do know that over the course of a loan, a vehicle that costs 7K more will easily rack up hundreds of dollars in interest, and likely, thousands.
Also, at least for American consumers, you should add in all applicable tax breaks for owning a hybrid
 
I forgot about Earth Day yesterday, I would have made some uber post against hybrids otherwise.

AutoBlogGreen
How much energy would the U.S. save if ten percent of the population switched to hybrids

We here at AutoblogGreen are big on technology that can lower environmental impact. Hybrids are widely touted as one way of doing that although some are much better at it than others. With over a million of the most popular hybrid, the iconic Prius, being sold there must be a noticeable decrease in the amount of gas being burned by Americans, right? Have you ever wondered how much gas would be saved if we all drove a Prius? About half, unless we all drive like Danika. OK, that's an unlikely scenario. How about if 10 percent of the car-driving public used some kind of hybrid? With 2.2 percent of the cars sold last year being hybrids it seems we are on our way to that small milestone.

After pulling out my slide rule (and then putting it away after I remembered I never did learn how to use it), calculator and a copy of the I Ching, I set out to solve this problem of the ages. According to the Department of Energy (DOE) we burned through 9,290,000 barrels (390 million gallons) of gas a day in 2007, which is about half of all finished petroleum used - so we're not even talking about diesel or aviation fuel. Using advanced algebraic formulae which required the participation of all of my fingers and toes, I've deduced we could save about 6,285,000,000 gallons each year (around 16 days worth of gas) if ten percent of us drove hybrids. A big number indeed but one I hope we can soon surpass.
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16 days? That's it? That is only 4% of the year.

A couple things I would like to know though, how much oil goes into the production of a hybrid, as you may recall about the Hummer v. Prius argument, the Prius does not win out. And what if these car suddenly became plug-in hybrids, would that cause us to burn more fuel to meet the power demand of 10% of the driving population plugging in their cars at night?
 

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