In the market for new car...evo X vs 135i

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Disclaimer: All 1-series content within this post applies strictly to the US market 135i and 128i COUPES only.

Toronado
45 posts in and no one has pointed out how terrible and without merit the 1 series is yet?
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If you base the discussion around the 3 and 5 door 1-series, then I probably wouldn't have much to disagree with. BUT, since we're both Americans and the 1er is sold here only as a coupe, I think it is a better car than you're giving it credit for. It's not a great value, true. But it does have merit, because a COUPE is a much different proposition than a HATCH.

See below...


YSSMAN
I believe I said that I'd rather have a 328i somewhere in there, but I can't recall. I think M-Spec did too...

Its not that the 1er is "useless," there just isn't enough of a price difference between it and the 3er to make it worthwhile.
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These days, if I'm going to bother with a four-seater car, I'd rather have a 5-series. But that's because I'm a decrepit old fart.

As far as the pricing is concerned, YES I think BMW gaffed. But not because they want too much money for a 1er. They screwed up because they failed to control the expectation that the 1er is a decontented 3er (which it is NOT) and would therefore sell for two thirds to half the price (which would be great, but not realistic).

Here's the base pricing for the 1, 3 and 5 in the US.

128i - $29,200
328i - $33,400
528i - $45,500

Going by that, it seems perfectly intuitive to assume a 1er should come in around $21k, given there is a huge 12k gap between the 3 and 5. But while that would seem intuitive, it's not a very reasonable and I'll tell you why: the 1 is not a decontented, stripped out, simplified version of the 3. It is a shortened version of the 3 that uses most of the (expensive) engineering.

BMW already took a shot at a decontented, simplified version of the 3. It was called the Compact and it failed. It wasn't just the looks of the thing, but it was also the 80s-era trailing arm suspension that was already a generation old when the first Compact hit the streets in 1995. And the parts bin interior bits that screamed "We wanted to save 8 cents on this switch, so we used this 13 year old part from the E30". People didn't take to the Compact because BMW made no pains to hide it's cheapness. It also didn't drive as well as the 3er because it had the compromise suspension.

Now consider the following. The 1-series has a more sophisticated front suspension than the old E46 3-series, which everyone loved. It is the same double-pivot strut design found in the larger BMWs. The rear end is a 5 link design that is also full featured and completely up to date. No trailing arms here. And it's mostly made of aluminum, just like other BMWs.

In fact, let's take the E46 vs. E87 comparison to it's logical conclusion.

2004 BMW 330Ci (E46/2) $36,800
Power: 225 hp, 214 lbs.-ft. @ 3,500 rpm
Weight: 3285 lbs.
0-60: 6.4
Skidpad g (C/D): .86
Mileage: 20/30 (OLD EPA rules)
Length: 176.7 in.
Wheelbase: 107.3 in.
Width: 69.2 in.
Front legroom: 41.7
Rear legroom: 33.2
Front headroom: 36.3
Rear headroom: 36.2
Passenger volume: 84.4 cu.ft.
Interior cargo volume: 14.5 cu.ft.


2009 BMW 128i Coupe (E87) $29,200
Power: 230 hp, 200 lbs.-ft. @ 2,750 rpm
Weight: 3252 lbs.
0-60: 6.1
Skidpad g (C/D): .89
Mileage: 18/28 (Current EPA rules)
Length: 172 in.
Wheelbase: 105 in.
Width: 68 in.
Front legroom: 41.4
Rear legroom: 32.0
Front headroom: 37.9
Rear headroom: 37.1
Passenger volume: 88.5 cu.ft.
Interior cargo volume: 13.1 cu.ft.

So the 128i is more powerful than the old 330i, quicker to 60 and has a more sophisticated front suspension design. It is also marginally lighter, has more headroom and overall interior passenger volume. It delivers roughly the same gas mileage and is slightly smaller externally.

Oh, and it is $7,600 cheaper (more if you adjust for inflation).

The ONLY place where the old 330Ci is better is rear legroom (about an inch) and trunk capacity (1.4 cubic feet).

The E46 3-series was a well loved car. Now BMW sells something that is slightly better in most ways, not quite as good in a couple of ways but is way, way cheaper. Imagine if they just announced: "Hi, we're going to sell a new 3-series that's bigger, heavier and more expensive. But we're also going to sell a new car that's almost the same as the one we have now, but slightly better. Oh, and we're cutting almost $8,000 from the sticker. Cool?"

Toronado
Based on what I have read, the 3 series handles better, rides better, looks better, is more practical, is more fun and doesn't particularly cost much more. I'm reminded of a particular review that started off by cutting right to the chase:
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Who wrote this? I'll give them the rides better and doesn't cost much more. But everything else in that sentence is debatable at best, and highly suspect at worst.


M
 
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well I ended up going with my initial choice. The dealer made me an offer I couldnt refuse on the EVO X GSR. 2k below invoice and 2.9% financing. Althought perfomance wise 135i was better (not by much), I loved the way the GSR handled better(both are awesome on turns though). I also likes the way it looks better too. Acceleration can be fixed later (much later, I don't plan to mod until maybe a year or so). Anyways here are pics of my new ride.

30wxd39.jpg

2enxhcl.jpg

ayu8tc.jpg
 
You made a very good choice, have fun with it on the road and enjoy some off-roading while you're out there. Much better than the 135i
 
Well... much as my preference would have been for the BMW, you can't really argue with a white/black combo, great looking, Japanese mega saloon sitting on your driveway :D And you have an Isuzu VehiCross too, I didn't even know those actually went into production! Kudos to you 👍

gator of kana
Much better than the 135i
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Test driven both? :odd:
 
I have a feature from about '96 in an Autocar magazine, and in '96, at the humble age of about 11, I thought it was awesome. I'm older and wiser now... but for some reason I still think it's awesome. Mainly because all these years I just thought it was a concept, or at the very least, a Japan-only model! We never got them in the UK.
 
Ah you're in the UK, didn't see that! I still remember watching an auto show on tv where they were showing off the VehiCross concept and it had a sweet tailgate that could open in either direction. I also think it's cool how they mounted the spare inside the tailgate, rather than on it or elsewhere.
 
It's not a Camaro SS (:indiff:) but I guess it's the best looking Evo X I've seen so far thanks to your chosen options.:)
 
homeforsummer
:lol: That would be the general level of logic he applies...
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Really?
I would have gone for because it's Mitsubishi's halo car and designed based on anime?
And it has looks a monkey could cuddle or something.

But on topic: yay! +1 for the GTP Evo army. That makes...3?
 
Oh come now. One editorial by a different author written four years ago? What does any of that have to do with the article comparing the two Beamers? I honestly think you are above such arguments when that essentially amounts to slander.
 
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Two parts to my response.

Part one; journalists do not write in a vacuum. Mr. Elton's idiotic rant was reviewed by an editor --someone whose job is not only to make spelling, grammar and basic style corrections, but whose job is to determine if the substance of what is being written meets the criteria for publishing. Somebody at truthaboutcars.com in a position of authority determined the article was fit to 'print'. Something they put their name on. Bottom line is the article was beyond dumb and truthaboutcars.com went to press on it. That says something about their entire organization.

Let me put it this way: if the New York Times ran an article that Poverty wrote about the GT-R, wouldn't that make you pretty much disregard anything they had to say ever again???


Part two; The guy who reviewed the 135i, Mr. Solowiow also reviewed the M3 in a different article.

Mike Solowiow
Strange but true: the Audi feels more hard-edged, more like a track day special than the BMW. Harder riding, heavier helmed and less computerized, the RS4 is the more engaging steer, especially at nine or ten-tenths.
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So he liked RS4 better than the M3 because it RIDES HARDER and HAS HEAVIER STEERING. Okay. No problem.

Mike Solowiow
On the real road, the 135i continually fights the driver with heavy steering and an extremely twitchy nature. Where the 335i has suspension control over all surfaces, the 135i bucks and snaps like a cheap Kia.
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Um wait. Now he doesn't like a stiff ride and heavy steering? What gives? If you're an "idiot" for wanting the car with heavier steering and harder ride, what does that make him?

Look, I'm not out to prove the 1-series is a great car or anything. But what I sense is a lot of people getting carried away with bashing it.

Is it expensive? Yes. Tight in the back seat? Totally. "Bucks and snaps like a cheap Kia?" C'mon. That's gonzo journalism.


And I'd appreciate it if you look up what slander means before you start accusing me of it. I said truthaboutcars has questionable credibility. I didn't say they gave money to terrorists or fondled little boys.


M
 
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///M-Spec
Let me put it this way: if the New York Times ran an article that Poverty wrote about the GT-R, wouldn't that make you pretty much disregard anything they had to say ever again???
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No. Lets look at another car publication: Motor Trend writes some truly awful editorials and terribly slanted comparison pieces, especially in recent years. Yet I still understand that not all of their articles are that way and that the magazine isn't completely without merit.

///M-Spec
Um wait. Now he doesn't like a stiff ride and heavy steering? What gives? If you're an "idiot" for wanting the car with heavier steering and harder ride, what does that make him?
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I cannot comment on the apparent hypocrisy as I don't know the circumstances that he came to the two conclusions. Maybe he felt that among the RS4 and M3, heavier steering was more appropriate given the car type, for example.

///M-Spec
And I'd appreciate it if you look up what slander means before you start accusing me of it. I said truthaboutcars has questionable credibility. I didn't say they gave money to terrorists or fondled little boys.
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Perhaps slander wasn't the correct term. I apologize for that. Defamation was probably more appropriate.
 
Toronado
No. Lets look at another car publication: Motor Trend writes some truly awful editorials and terribly slanted comparison pieces, especially in recent years. Yet I still understand that not all of their articles are that way and that the magazine isn't completely without merit.
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First, that is of course, up to you. Who you trust is a personal decision and we will have to agree to disagree on the merits of truthaboutcars.com. But I have never held the site in very high regard.

Second, I wonder how it is that you're willing to give Motor Trend a lot of leeway, but not the 1-series. Think about it: you say you're willing to give MT the benefit of the doubt, even though they've committed some terrible sins in the past. Yet, the 1-series --which undoubtedly has committed the sins of being too expensive, too small and more than a little ugly --you've determined as having "no merit whatsoever".

Toronado
I cannot comment on the apparent hypocrisy as I don't know the circumstances that he came to the two conclusions. Maybe he felt that among the RS4 and M3, heavier steering was more appropriate given the car type, for example.
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Or maybe he's just full of it. Either way, it's a reflection on the quality of the journalism.


Toronado
Perhaps slander wasn't the correct term. I apologize for that. Defamation was probably more appropriate.
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In order for me to be guilty of defamation, I would have to have stated a falsehood deliberately designed to attack the character of the supposed victim. (ie. "truthaboutcars worships Satan" or "truthaboutcars emailed me naked photos of themselves wearing hentai schoolgirl outfits asking me to spank them")

I've done none of those things.

You should also notice that I called into question the validity of what was being said even before I was told who had said them.

So it's not as if I looked at who was doing the talking and decided it was nonsense because of who said it. I decided it was nonsense, then asked who said it. Finding out who said it only reinforced my poor image of them.

I think I'm pretty fair in all this. Fairer than you're being to me, at any rate.


M
 
///M-Spec
you've determined as having "no merit whatsoever".
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That post was made with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Given the choice between the two, I would personally choose the 135; as I do actually like the car more than most of the BMW range. However, if I was putting my money on the line I would choose the 3er.

///M-Spec
Either way, it's a reflection on the quality of the journalism.
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I don't think so. Such apparent double standards are common place among automotive journalism.

///M-Spec
In order for me to be guilty of defamation, I would have to have stated a falsehood deliberately designed to attack the character of the supposed victim. (ie. "truthaboutcars worships Satan" or "truthaboutcars emailed me naked photos of themselves wearing hentai schoolgirl outfits asking me to spank them")
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Then I guess I don't know what the word is I'm looking for.

///M-Spec
I think I'm pretty fair in all this.
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Then I hope we can agree to disagree over this, as I personally feel that you are letting your dislike of the website cloud your objectivity. I understand that you questioned the article before you knew where it was from; but seemingly the first thing you did in response when you discovered its source was to attack the credibility of the publication rather than meet the article's points head on (which I understand that you also did afterwards).
If I am mistaken in any of my conclusions, I apologize, but otherwise I don't think you are being fair to my source for whatever reason.
 
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Nice car! It puts my white Lancer GTS to shame. Wish I had one of them Evo10's, but then insurance would kill me (well it already is :scared:). I don't know how winters over there are, but I'd invest in a set of winter tyres.
 
Toronado
Motor Trend writes some truly awful editorials and terribly slanted comparison pieces, especially in recent years. Yet I still understand that not all of their articles are that way and that the magazine isn't completely without merit.
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Really? Because that's exactly the conclusion I came to, the reason I promptly dropped my subscription, with no regrets since, and the reason I instantly disregard anything I read on the internet that came from that magazine.

"One bad article, shame on you. Several bad articles, I'm not reading your trash anymore." Or something like that, I guess. :lol:

With that in mind, I agree with you, Toronado, that "Death to The Stick Shift" (though it's so monumentally stupid that it would be staggering to learn it isn't just a troll article) on its own shouldn't completely discount the website. Everyone makes mistakes, and while Bob Elton may be beyond help, perhaps his editor was having an off day, or perhaps the writers submit articles to the blog without any moderation. I don't have time right now to peruse other parts of that site, so I can't check its credibility.

At the same time, it might be simpler to just find another source that makes the points you'd like to make, rather than arguing the credibility of this one. Multiple sources are never a bad thing anyway. :)
 
Toronado
That post was made with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Given the choice between the two, I would personally choose the 135; as I do actually like the car more than most of the BMW range. However, if I was putting my money on the line I would choose the 3er.
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We can't see tone of voice and body language on the internet. So in the future, something like a ":sly:" might be useful to prevent misinterpretations.


Toronado
I don't think so. Such apparent double standards are common place among automotive journalism.
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I can see maybe one staff writer being inconsistent with another staff writer in the same magazine. After all, people will have their own preferences. That's understandable and acceptable.

But this is the same guy. And not only that, he wrote the articles one month apart! George Lucas has more internal consistency and believable motivations in his writing than this guy! :sly:

Toronado
Then I guess I don't know what the word is I'm looking for.
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Maybe the word(s) you're looking for is: "my bad" ;)


Toronado
Then I hope we can agree to disagree over this, as I personally feel that you are letting your dislike of the website cloud your objectivity. I understand that you questioned the article before you knew where it was from; but seemingly the first thing you did in response when you discovered its source was to attack the credibility of the publication rather than meet the article's points head on (which I understand that you also did afterwards).
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Well, it's not as if I just jumped into the conversation to declare that truthaboutcars is nothing but a bunch of retards and not add anything else to the conversation.

I DID wrote a voluminous post with a mind-numbing array of MEGO to show that the 1-series isn't all that bad... in the same post. Do you really think it was necessary for me to break-down Mr. Solowiow's conclusions about the 135i point-by-point when I already put everyone to sleep in the previous paragraph?

I mean, I can address the article in more "oh gods, kill me know" detail if you think it's truly necessary.

But given that Wolfe already responded to that article in this post, I didn't think you were really interested in debating it.

Besides, I haven't driven the 1 yet, so it would just degenerate into "dueling magazine articles". And that's just lame. The only person in this thread who actually has driven the 1er is niky, and I'd take his word over anything TTAC has to say any day of the week.

Toronado
If I am mistaken in any of my conclusions, I apologize, but otherwise I don't think you are being fair to my source for whatever reason.
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I am very fair. To everyone except those sheep-worrying ass-weasels at truthaboutcars.com :sly: * in case anyone's sarcasm and irony detector is getting r&r'd, that was tongue-in-cheek.

In all seriousness though, I read several articles on TTAC after lunch and I'm simply not impressed. Do you really want to go 12 rounds debating it or do you want to just stop at: you think they're pretty credible, while I don't?

C/D, R&T, Automobile, Evo, Car (UK)... surely you can find something a mainstream rag has written about the 1-series that better supports your position?


Wolfe
Everyone makes mistakes, and while Bob Elton may be beyond help, perhaps his editor was having an off day, or perhaps the writers submit articles to the blog without any moderation. I don't have time right now to peruse other parts of that site, so I can't check its credibility.
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Did you notice that Solowiow's article basically calls you an idiot? I've seen less hastily drawn conclusions in the GT-R thread....


M
 

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