GT4 Dampers

Mt. Lynx · Jan 11, 2006

I actually started thinking maybe you got things wrong? When you say stiff, do you mean it follows the bumps better, and makes the car flow easier? And when saying soft, do you mean jumpy and hard to handle? Because if you do, I can tell you it´s a case of misconception. Soft= flows better and handles bumbs better.
And I can tell right away, 1 is softest in GT4, no doubt whatsoever!

About understeer/oversteer; a car will usually understeer under braking. To get better grip and some oversteer (wich hardly ever occurs during braking) you can tighten up the front a tad. Too much, and you´re back to understeer. This is for FR cars. MR/RR has slighty different approach, and your main concern will be the rear. But softer usually means more grip, yes. But not too soft.
The damping on the Ford looks just right IMO, if the springs are set to somewhere between 8 and 11 (harder in the front).

sucahyo · Jan 11, 2006

Team666
I actually started thinking maybe you got things wrong? When you say stiff, do you mean it follows the bumps better, and makes the car flow easier? And when saying soft, do you mean jumpy and hard to handle? Because if you do, I can tell you it´s a case of misconception. Soft= flows better and handles bumbs better.

For soft damper, both, on soft spring it follows the bump better, hard spring with higher bounce speed makes the wheel overshot zero often which make it jumpy and hard to handle.
But, my jump is different from yours.
My jump is happen on softer damper when the wheel is currently going down when it meet the bump. The car jump because it attempt to eject the wheel when it stopped by the bump. harder spring have more chance to jump

Your jump is happen on hard damper when the wheel meet the bump. the car jump because suspension doesn't react quickly enough. This happen on soft or hard spring rate.

For hard damper, I believe only GT1 that have very hard damper (jittering jump). I never experience second kind of jump in GT2.

I notice when racing using 20/20 spring 10/10 10/10 damper on '87 starlet, the wheel following the road contour like crazy in apricott hill, sometimes the rear will jump when the wheel can't follow the road very well (maybe because previous force still in action), very hard to handle. Using 5/5 5/5 damper makes the wheel less flowing and less jumpy. Using 1/1 1/1 will make the wheel less active.

Team666
About understeer/oversteer; a car will usually understeer under braking. To get better grip and some oversteer (wich hardly ever occurs during braking) you can tighten up the front a tad. Too much, and you´re back to understeer. This is for FR cars. MR/RR has slighty different approach, and your main concern will be the rear. But softer usually means more grip, yes. But not too soft.

How do you know if it's too much? can you measure the exact point where it start to have reverse effect?
How do you know ford has the right amount of damper?

I get the same result as my previous test for the FR - V8 Vantage.
1/10 1/10 is more understeer than 10/1 10/1.

Seeing this thread (question for real...) makes me believe that in GT4 damper setting range is too small to show live car movement (just like GT2). Only in GT1 we can have a very lively car

. I wish PD makes damper setting from 1 to 20, although 15 is enough to make the car feel very wild on 2.0 spring.

Scaff · Jan 11, 2006

sucahyo
I just finished test smythee Phase 1
"Phase 1 : Increasing braking + increasing steering", hard braking in a corner.
"Since weight is being transferred both forward and outboard, the outside front damper moves in the bump direction. Also, the inside rear damper moves in rebound. The other two dampers do not move as much or as rapidly, so their effects are minimal."

on GT2 only (I just realize that I can't set bound and rebound separately in GT1.) Lotus elise in apricot hill first corner with 135/135 ride height, 2.0/2.0 spring rate.

for more undeersteer elise: more front bound, less rear rebound. (do this mean less damper have more grip?)

Scenario 1: 1 is softest.
10/1 10/1 damper result : more oversteer, WRONG

Scenario 2: 1 is stiffest
1/10 1/10 damper result : more understeer, CORRECT

Conclusion: 1 is stiffest in GT2. Same as extreme value test.

First a couple of questions

1. Why have you set the springs to a value of 2.0 here? These (I asume) hacked values may well be throwing the results themselves, as well as being so soft that any difference between damper settings may well be difficult to detect. This is why in the tests I ran across the series the only values I changed were the damper values; to ensure that other settings did not effect the results.

2. Why do you assume that a change in cars balance will give you a definative result for dampers? Every car can act very differently in terms of balance, particularly mid engined cars such as the Elise. Additionally the extremely low spring rate settings again may be throwing these results.

3. You are assuming that GT2 is going to act in exactly the same way as the real world in damper balancing, given the limitations of the original Playstation and the fact that even GT4 on the PS2 does not 100% accuratly recreate damper balance this is very, very unlikely.

As far as I can see the simplest set of tests to judge GT2 damper settings is to fit race spec suspension to a car, run it default, run it with dampers set to 1 (bound and rebound) and run it with dampers set to 10 (bound and rebound). The visual results and feel from these settings provide more that enough detail to tell hard from soft, without making assumptions about the accuracy of GT2 in regard to damper settings and car balance.

The results from my tests were as follows:

All ran at Deep Forest, TVR Griffith 500, all settings apart from dampers left at default (driver aids set to zero in GT3 & GT4).

Gran Turismo
Default Settings (all front / rear)
Spring Rate - 4.8 / 3.9
Ride Height - 124 / 124
Damper - 4 / 4
Camber - 2 / 1

On the default settings the car felt quite stiff, but only lost contact with the road over large bumps.

Damper - 1 / 1
The car felt very, very soft. The car visiably started to bounce over bumps, but did not lose contact with the road surface.

Damper - 10 / 10
The car felt very, very hard. I was unable to retain any traction on any surface not totally smooth and flat. The car was visiably unable to cope with surface changes and jumped constantly.

Gran Turismo 2
Spring Rate - 5.8 / 4.7
Ride Height - 111 / 111
Bound - 7 / 7
Rebound - 7 / 7
Camber - 2 / 1
Toe - 0 / 0
Stab - 3 3

On the default settings the car felt stiff and as if it needed to be softened. Traction loss and wheel contact loss occured over large bumps.

Damper - 1 / 1 (bound and rebound)
Very soft feel to the car, wobbling over bumps and was visiably soft and compliant over the bumps and surface changes.

Damper - 10 / 10 (bound and rebound)
The car felt stiff, skipping over bumps. Visiably the car could be seen to jump over bumps and little suspension movement could be seen.

Gran Turismo 3
Spring Rate - 5.8 / 4.7
Ride Height - 112 / 112
Bound - 7 / 7
Rebound - 7 / 7
Camber - 2 / 1
Toe - 0 / 0
Stab - 3 / 3

On the default settings the car again felt stiff, with definate feel of the rumble strips when crossed. Slight traction loss could be felt over bumps and the car was visably stiff and the skipping could be seen.

Damper - 1 / 1 (Bound and Rebound)
Very, very soft feel, the car felt slow to react, floating accross smaller rumble strips with no feel. No loss of contact even with large bumps. Visiably soft and compliant suspension travel.

Damper - 10 / 10 (Bound and Rebound)
Stiff and nervous feel to the car. Skips constantly over rumble strips, which was very easy to feel and clearly visable over the rumble strips.

Gran Turismo 4
Spring Rate - 6.4 / 5.2
Ride Height - 129 / 129
Bound - 8 / 8
Rebound - 8 / 8
Camber - 2 / 1
Toe - 0 / 0
Stab - 5 / 5

With the default settings the car felt stiff and skipped over the rumble strips. Visiable traction loss occured over bumps and surface cahnges.

Damper - 1 / 1 (Bound and rebound)
Soft feel, gliding over the rumble strips with no traction loss over any surface. Visiably no issues with traction and the tyres flowwed over the surface. Car felt heavy and slightly reluctant to change direction.

Damper - 10 / 10 (bound and rebound)
Feels hard and nervous, with traction lost over bumps and surface changes. The car visiably jumps and skips with even minor surface changes.

Overall

To me the difference between the damper settings used clearly showned the correct characteristics for low values being soft and high values being stiff, for damper settings accross the series.

Using the above tests GT2 was no different from GT, GT3 or GT4 in this regard.

sucahyo
I see.
I say correct and wrong here related to smythee theory, which state that if we add more front bound it should be more understeer.
If you say that, this mean 1 is stiffest in GT4. But I will try again using V8 Vantage (3094 lbs).....

No it does not mean that 1 is the stiffest in GT4, every car can react differently to damper settings in terms of car balance.

You're statement above again assumes that GT2 is 100% real world accurate as far as damper settings vs car balance, which I believe to be unlikely. Also that every car reacts the same to damper settings, which is untrue.

sucahyo · Jan 11, 2006

2 is lowest value for racing suspension for all car, some road car even have less.
I use theory that sukerkin use, I will test it on other car too, to see the similarity.
How do you define extremely low, what range of value is most suitable for testing?
I am not saying 100%, closely same as real life is enough.

I see, GT2, GT3 & GT4 almost have the same feeling.
It's IMPORTANT that you should try running GT1 with 5/5 damper too, you can have very soft feel too.

The way we judge softer damper is different. I look at the wheel movement. if it move wider then I call it soft damper. If it move only a little I call it hard damper.
The way 10 damper in GT2 skipping the road can also because it already react to previous bump, making it unable to react to the next bump.

You won't be using sukerkin theory when tuning GT4?
More Neil W. Robert: Adjustable Dampers 101 & 102

Mt. Lynx · Jan 11, 2006

Well, drive the car yourself, instead of just looking at the wheels. Remember, these are all games, and feel may be better implemented than graphics.

As far as tuning goes in GT4, trial and error is my usual approach, although I´ve done alot of tuning, so I´m always able to make a quite educated guess on how to set that particular car up, for that particular track. But every car is different, so a certain amount of tweaking is always needed. There is no universal law on how to set up a car. It´s up to a number of things; Car, track, drivingstyle, and personal preferences. For example: I´m a minimalist when it comes to tuning, so I avoid it as much as I can as long as I´m ingame. If I do have to tune, I go for gearbox and suspension at first, and see if that helps, and so on. And when it comes to racecars, I firmly belive in the best setup, rather than the most power. If you want to test one of my setups, I can post one here. It will of course be made in GT4, but it should work to some degree in GT2 also. I thought a good car of choice would be Castrol Tom´s Supra, since we have it in both games. Just tell me if you´d like this and you got it!

sukerkin · Jan 11, 2006

Nice to see that you've been looking at some 'real world' sources, S - getting some knowledge of how the suspension components actually work can only be helpful in the long run 👍.

One thing that you have to bear in mind when dealing with damper tuning is that they're only one part of the suspension system. Other things can affect how they work and if the general chassis balance isn't sorted first you'll have trouble getting the dampers to do the job you want them to do. If you read through the 'blind test' I did with the Vantage I think you'll see a good example of that i.e. it wasn't until I got the car properly balanced that the dampers began to react in the way I would expect.

Also, with dampers, particularly in Bound, there is a 'sweet spot' between too soft and too hard where they perform the best. If the damper is too soft then, as Scaff noted above, the car can feel unresponsive and reluctant to turn.

The trick is to notch them up gradually and test. You should notice that up to a certain point the car will respond with alacrity and feel much more 'planted'. Beyond that point, the car will start to either slide under braking into a turn (being perceived as understeer) or the back-end will begin to get 'snappy' (depending on whether the front or the rear dampers have been increased past their optimal value).

Another point is that if the dampers are too stiff then you're actually overriding the springs and getting instantaneous weight transfer i.e. it's almost as if you didn't have a suspension as it can't work to smooth out the bumps in the road.

As you can see, it's not a simple issue

. That's why only working with extreme values (and here I mean values at the ends of the scale used within the game interface) will never give you a good idea of what's going on. Like Team says, track time will tell you more than value crunching (not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm a fan of mathematical analysis myself). That's equally true in-game and out at the circuit in the real world.

Scaff · Jan 11, 2006

sucahyo
2 is lowest value for racing suspension for all car, some road car even have less.
I use theory that sukerkin use, I will test it on other car too, to see the similarity.
How do you define extremely low, what range of value is most suitable for testing?
I am not saying 100%, closely same as real life is enough.

It still does not answer my question as to why you feel the need to set the spring rate so low in a test of damper values? Doing so could have a major impact on the results of any test carried out.

Its for this very reason that I kept the spring rates at the default value in my tests, to ensure that the only variable between the damper tests was the damper setting.

sucahyo
I see, GT2, GT3 & GT4 almost have the same feeling.
It's IMPORTANT that you should try running GT1 with 5/5 damper too, you can have very soft feel too.

In my opinion GT, GT2, GT3 and GT4 all have the same basic characteristics when it comes to damper feel, that of low value settings providing a soft damping feel and high values providing a firm damping feel.

I'm not sure why it is important to try running GT with a damper value of 5/5? Its not like a 'magic' damper will solve all you're problems for all cars on a single track. A value of 5/5 could feel soft or firm depending on the car its used on and the track its run on.

I did run the tests with more damper values that these written up above, and the Griffith (in GT) was stiffer and firmer on a 5/5 setting that on the default 4/4 settings. My preference for this car and track would actually be around 3/3.

sucahyo
The way we judge softer damper is different. I look at the wheel movement. if it move wider then I call it soft damper. If it move only a little I call it hard damper.

I'm not sure how many times this needs to be covered, but as we have all said, you can't judge damper reactions simply by looking at wheel movement.

Firstly, as has been said before, damper settings do not principally control how much a wheel moves, but how quickly it moves.

It may help to remember the following, spring rates control how far the wheel will move, damper rates control how quickly the wheel will move. Its not quite that simple, but it does help to remember which area is principally controlled by what suspension setting.

When I'm looking at how a car reacts to damper settings on a particular track I would use the following areas as a guide (in no particular order):

How well the tyre remains in contact with the track surface
How well the car and tyres cope with small and large bumps, curbs and rumble strips
How the car feels to drive, particularly how it feel at the point of turn in (does it feel slow and lardy or sharp and nervous)
Does the suspension allow the tyre to quickly track surface changes without feeling numb and disconected from the track.
How well the car keeps traction, particularly over less than smooth track surfaces (at Deep Forest just about any part of the track apart from the main straight)

sucahyo
The way 10 damper in GT2 skipping the road can also because it already react to previous bump, making it unable to react to the next bump.

Soft damper settings do not cause a car to skip down the road, as they ensure the suspension is able to track the road surface quickly and smoothly. Skipping is a characteristic of dampers set too firmly. Given this, the statement above would support GT2 damper settings of 10 being firm.

sucahyo
You won't be using sukerkin theory when tuning GT4?
More Neil W. Robert: Adjustable Dampers 101 & 102

I can't recall saying I would not use the tuning info Sukerkin provided, but I would test it first. However to be able to test these values you would first need to know which damper value indicated soft and firm settings. If this is not known then you can't 'test' the real world data in GT (any version) to ensure GT reacts in the same way.

This is the issue I have with you're tests, you are assuming that the info supplied will be simulated accuratly in GT2. This is a massive assumption to make, particularly to then use it to state that it proves damper settings at 10 are soft. You must first know what damper settings relate to before you can even begin to start looking at how the effect handling balance.

On the subject of handling balance you are also using extreme settings to try and force a handling characteristic out of a car. Going to a setting that increases oversteer in a car that has understeer on corner entry is not always going to make the car oversteer. In fact on corner entry its far more likely to just reduce the level of understeer.

The test you carried out, while interesting, does not for me prove anything. No steady increase or decrease in values was used, which would have allowed you to see any change in the handling balance in steps.

I maintain that the damper settings in GT2 follow the same convention and characteristics of every single other GT in the series.

Think about it this way, which is more likely:

A - PD for some unknown reason switched the value range for damper settings only in GT2, then put it back for GT3 and GT4. And you are the first (and to my knowledge only) person to have spotted this.

or

B - The use of extreme (and sometimes hacked) values, along with a limited and at times confused understanding of how dampers work has thrown you test values out. Making it seem that the value range for dampers is reversed.

Now please do not take the above as me being rude, it is not intended in that way at all, I don't think that you could argue that you're understanding of how dampers functioned was limited at the start of this thread. You even admited as much yourself. Also I would be surprised if you would say that using extreme and sometimes hacked values did not run the risk of throwing the results out.

For myself I have to say that I know what real world damper settings feel and react like and across the GT series low values act with the same echaracteristics as soft dampers and high values act with the same characteristics as stiff dampers. This includes GT2.

Regards

Scaff

RXGem · Jan 12, 2006

Interesting discussion you have here. The only thing I can add is that they may all be "Gran Turismo" but they all have their differences so you must adjust, that's why Scaff has added a disclaimer in his guide saying that everything in it is based on the GT4 world of physics and not the real world.

Also, it seems to (IMO) that your values are just way to extreme (Sping settings way too low) to be able to gauge the effects the dampers are having. I may be wrong, but, with better spring rates you may find that the damper adjustments are working the way they should be, higher=stiffer.

Just my two cents..

sukerkin
Also, with dampers, particularly in Bound, there is a 'sweet spot' between too soft and too hard where they perform the best. If the damper is too soft then, as Scaff noted above, the car can feel unresponsive and reluctant to turn.

The trick is to notch them up gradually and test. You should notice that up to a certain point the car will respond with alacrity and feel much more 'planted'. Beyond that point, the car will start to either slide under braking into a turn (being perceived as understeer) or the back-end will begin to get 'snappy' (depending on whether the front or the rear dampers have been increased past their optimal value).

Another point is that if the dampers are too stiff then you're actually overriding the springs and getting instantaneous weight transfer i.e. it's almost as if you didn't have a suspension as it can't work to smooth out the bumps in the road.

Sukerkin and Scaff, I'm interested to know if you have a particular way that you adjust your dampers. Do you adjust the settings one-by-one ie. do a couple laps and adjust the front bound and repeat untill you get it right and then move on to the next setting? Do you adjust things according to particular corners on a chosen test track? Do you go by feel ie. you feel understeer on X corners and make X adjustments, etc?

I'd like some tips on the methodology you use. I understand how dampers work and how they effect the car, but am unsure of the order I should make changes in, if it makes a difference. I seem to always get lost and end up going in circles without any real progress.

I get too impatient so I need some sort of plan.

Scaff · Jan 12, 2006

RXGem
Sukerkin and Scaff, I'm interested to know if you have a particular way that you adjust your dampers. Do you adjust the settings one-by-one ie. do a couple laps and adjust the front bound and repeat untill you get it right and then move on to the next setting? Do you adjust things according to particular corners on a chosen test track?

I'd like some tips on the methodology you use. I understand how dampers work and how they effect the car, but am unsure of the order I should make changes in, if it makes a difference.

From you're post it would seem that you have already downloaded a copy of my guide, which does (in the back) cover an example of how I would normally tune a car.

Just to recap I normally would do the following (in regard to dampers).

Making progress
The very first thing I do is reduce both the front and rear settings (bound and rebound) as I find the GT4 default settings far to high for most cars. I generally start with a setting of around 3 to 5 front and rear, depending on the car and track. Practice will soon start to give you an idea of your own starting points that match your driving style and desired feel. You will also need to keep in mind the weight distribution of the car, particularly for corner entry. Many front engined cars will need a slightly stiffer set-up at the front to allow for the additional weight, conversely some mid or rear engined cars may need stiffer rear damper settings.

From here I then start with the rebound rate, test drive the car, if it feels unstable, bouncy and loose then increase the rebound rate. If the car is hard and bumpy, particularly over a series of bumps, then reduce the rebound rate. Test drive the car again and adjust by 1 – 2 each time.

With the rebound rate set, the bound setting can now be tuned. If the car feels soft and surface irregularities are hardly noticeable then the bound rate should be raised. If the car feels harsh and hard over surface irregularities then the bound rate should be reduced. As with rebound this should be adjusted by 1 – 2 each time and the car test driven.
I generally find that this results in rebound being, on average, 1 to 2 ‘clicks’ harder than bound. Which if you are in a hurry can be used as a starting point.

The final thing would be then, if required/desired, to adjust the front or rear settings for under or oversteer. I personally always keep the ratio between bound and rebound the same at this point. For example if I was stiffening the rear from 5/6 bound and rebound, by one ‘click’. The final setting would be 6/7 bound and rebound.

Note: As damper settings have as much of an effect on how the car ‘feels’ as its handling balance, it is perhaps one of the most personal of all the suspension settings.

In regard to do I run a few laps between each adjustment, then the answer would be yes. I never change more than one setting at a time, and I always run a few laps to see the effect before moving on, sometimes more laps may be required. I do know that some people have a formula approach were they change the values by a set ammount all at once and then tweak them. Personally this has never worked for me, and I lot of the set-ups I see that appear to have used this method almost always feel rough with a lot of settings fighting against each other.

I do also tend to tune based on which corner I feel is most important ( a few method of corner ranking exist - I will see if I can dig out some info tomorrow), and I will also tun based on how a car feels during turn-in, corner entry, constant radius/throttle and corner exit. Again my guide has some details on which settings will have an effect in each part of a corner (pages 9-12), for example dampers have almost no effect on car balance during constant radius/throttle cornering as the car is balanced and neither in bound or rebound; so changes to damper settings would have almost no effect here.

I am working on some more advanced notes for damper tuning, but to be honest I still have a lot of GT4 testing to do in this regard and it may not appear until after the LSD/Aero/Gearbox guide (and I have no idea when that will be finished).

Anyway, I hope that the above helps (and makes sense), any questions just let me know.

Regards

Scaff

RXGem · Jan 12, 2006

Thanks for such a quick reply. I was hoping to catch you and Sukerkin before you went offline, but after I posted I found you were both gone. Luckily you came back or else I'd have to wait till tomorrow to ask another question

Firstly, to be honest, I hadn't seen your guide yet (I'm at work and just downloaded it. Printing..). I was just going by what you said in an earlier post and what you usually say in the brakes thread :dunce:

I have read through the smithee's guide, many times over, that Sukerkin mentioned that is in KaiZen's sig, though.

A couple quick questions. You adjust the rebound first, then the bound. Is that both front and rear rebound, then bound? Do you usually end up with front damper settings harder the the rear, like spring rates on most front engined cars (a rule I used when playing GT3)? As a starting point do you start with F3/5 R3/5, or something else?

I'd really like to know which corners you make adjustments for. That would be a great help. Are there particular corners for different drivetrains?

I know it's drifting a little off topic, but I can still see it realising Sucahyo's Quest

I just finished printing your guide. It's awesome! Exactly what I've been looking for, a professional detailed guide to the world GT4 physics from a highly reliable source.. Excellent work there, can't wait for the next Volumes

sucahyo · Jan 12, 2006

About feel, I use smythee test as suggested because I can feel the difference, but don't know which is which.
About Castrol Tom supra, I think we have different goal. My goal is to use hardest spring, highest damper, lowest stabilizer, lowest height tuning that I still can drive, I am not looking for the best handling. I am not sure if setting can be transferable, because I don't know how spring affect acceleration in GT4 (harder=faster in GT2). Can you show me your setting for deep forest? I will try it to see if its transferable.

About one part of the suspension system, I agree that we should balance the car first.
About sweet spot, I will try it later. Maybe 4/6 4/6 vs 6/4 6/4.
About damper being too stiff, I don't believe we can get too stiff damper in GT2,3&4. This is my opinion for damper in GT1 & GT2 (I curently believe GT4=GT2).

About low spring rate, I use it because this is usually what non suspension modified car have. I will test default racing modified value later. Notice that you are using racing modified default. Can't I use stock car spring rate for my test? I don't see any reason not to.
About 5/5 damper in GT1, just in case you miss it.
About visual wheel, its because I can't count the bouncing like in GT1.

About spring rate do not control how quickly the wheel move, I don't agree, if I use smythee theory, spring rate stiffness is directly corelated to oscilation frequency, which I believe the same as speed. IMO, spring rate control the speed (V) = how quickly, damper control the acceleration (a) = how far. Harder spring rate have faster wheel speed, stiffer damper have higher decceleration.
Spring rate is like ball, damper is like brake. Harder ball is faster, more brake reduce the stopping distance.

About the guide, agree.
About skipping, it can happen when the damper is too hard AND too soft.

About theory, how if we test it backward? we test it first blindly (don't care which is which) and then see what real life fact is, and make conclution.
I am not assuming anything when I do the test, I judge the correctness comment later. I test it first using 10/1 10/1, note the car handling, then using 1/10 1/10, note the car handling, open the reference, judge.
About hacked value, I guess you still won't believe me even when I can (maybe impossible) show you 255 damper in GT4. For now, seeing that 255 damper in GT1 is stiff, 255 damper in GT2 is soft, I believe GT1 and GT2 damper is switched.
About higher spring rate stiffer damper, seeing duck's test for damper (see my previous test) I believe 1 is softest in GT4.

http://www.smithees-racetech.com.au/performancefactors.html
For instance, we find that small sedans and production sports cars around 1000kgs, without aero devices, will work best around 120 to 130 cycles per minute, running on Dot racing tyres. This is a lot stiffer than road car springs, where spring frequencies might be around 80 to 100 cpm. Other considerations might require us to run stiffer again. But 120 to 130 is what we'd like to run for maximum grip. If we can run quality racing shocks, we tend towards softer springs and more shock compression. We can do this because modern racing shock absorbers are much more sensitive to slow speed settings.

1002kg silvia Q (spring rate stock 1.8/1.8, racing default 3.2/3.2) with 20/20 spring rate has spring frequency 120, with 2/2 spring rate has spring frequency 80. Spring frequency test done using softest damper and softest stabilizer in 15 seconds time.
So, using 2/2 spring rate is the same as normal road car. And if I follow the quote I should be running with 20/20 spring rate and super soft tire.

Scaff · Jan 12, 2006

sucahyo
About feel, I use smythee test as suggested because I can feel the difference, but don't know which is which.
About Castrol Tom supra, I think we have different goal. My goal is to use hardest spring, highest damper, lowest stabilizer, lowest height tuning that I still can drive, I am not looking for the best handling. I am not sure if setting can be transferable, because I don't know how spring affect acceleration in GT4 (harder=faster in GT2). Can you show me your setting for deep forest? I will try it to see if its transferable.

If you can feel a difference, but yo do not know which is which then I have to ask what is the point. If you are unable to identify the end results then you will never be able to reach a conclusion that the majority of people will agree with.

Just what is wrong with simply driving the car and working on its feel and how the car visually reacts with the road to determine what a damper value relates to?

If you are not looking to tune a car for handling, what are you looking for? You say you "My goal is to use hardest spring, highest damper, lowest stabilizer, lowest height tuning that I still can drive". Why? What is the reason?

In regard to spring rates effect on acceleration, I believe we have already covered this a few pages back.

sucahyo
About one part of the suspension system, I agree that we should balance the car first.
About sweet spot, I will try it later. Maybe 4/6 4/6 vs 6/4 6/4.
About damper being too stiff, I don't believe we can get too stiff damper in GT2,3&4. This is my opinion for damper in GT1 & GT2 (I curently believe GT4=GT2).

Don't disagree with you with regard to balancing the car first, but once again you are puting up settings without relating them to a car. I do not believe that you can just pluck settings options out of the air and expect them to work, only through testing and gradual changes to settings will you get a balanced set-up.

As for it not being possiable to get too stiff dampers in GT2, GT3 and GT4. I could not agree with you less. In the Griffith tests dampers set to 10 in all versions of the series were too stiff. Set the Caterham Fireblade to a damper setting of 10 in GT4 and the car is virtually undrivable, that would meet my definition of being too stiff.

I do need to just ask a question regarding which versions of GT you have tested, you refer a lot to the entire series, but if I have read you're posts correctly you have tested GT and GT2, is that correct. Also you run GT & GT2 on a PC using an emulator, what do you use as a controller? Do you have GT3 and/or GT4, because you are making a lot of assumptions about how the settings work in these two?

sucahyo
About low spring rate, I use it because this is usually what non suspension modified car have. I will test default racing modified value later. Notice that you are using racing modified default. Can't I use stock car spring rate for my test? I don't see any reason not to.
About 5/5 damper in GT1, just in case you miss it.
About visual wheel, its because I can't count the bouncing like in GT1.

Again I would like to clear something up here. Can you answer the following for me (sorry about all the questions).

Are you fitting racing suspension or just changing the values using a 'hacking' device?
If you are fitting racing suspension, why are you changing the spring rates back to the 'standard' values?

The reason I ask is because the fitting of uprated suspension does have an effect on the cars overall stiffness (this has been tested across the GT series many times), and again could result in flawed results.

I did answer the GT1 5/5 damper setting point, you may have missed it.

Scaff
I'm not sure why it is important to try running GT with a damper value of 5/5? Its not like a 'magic' damper will solve all you're problems for all cars on a single track. A value of 5/5 could feel soft or firm depending on the car its used on and the track its run on.

I did run the tests with more damper values that these written up above, and the Griffith (in GT) was stiffer and firmer on a 5/5 setting that on the default 4/4 settings. My preference for this car and track would actually be around 3/3.

On the visual wheel bit, you need to look at much more than just what the wheel is doing, start looking at the car as a whole and how it feels to drive.

sucahyo
About spring rate do not control how quickly the wheel move, I don't agree, if I use smythee theory, spring rate stiffness is directly corelated to oscilation frequency, which I believe the same as speed. IMO, spring rate control the speed (V) = how quickly, damper control the acceleration (a) = how far. Harder spring rate have faster wheel speed, stiffer damper have higher decceleration.
Spring rate is like ball, damper is like brake. Harder ball is faster, more brake reduce the stopping distance.

Well I have to say this one is causing you a major issue, but I'm sorry you are wrong.

Spring rates do corelate to oscilation frequency, and if a car was fitted only with spring and no dampers then you would be correct. The spring rate would then control both how far and how quickly the roll occured, the spring would also continue to oscilate until all the energy had been disapated.

Thats excatly why you fit dampers, to control the springs oscilation so the car does not carry on bouncing for a long period of time.

I'm going to refer to Skip Barber's book Going Faster which covers the subject well (if you are unaware of who Skip Barber is I strongly suggest you google him before considering saying he is wrong)

Going Faster
Shock absorbers or more correctly Dampers, have the primary function of helping to control the energy stored up by the springs. A spring is a remarkable depository of energy. When the spring is compressed by a bump or a change in load on the spring, it stores the energy of the initial motion and feeds most of it back in the opposite direction. Without control, the spring would go through a number of cycles of compression and extending in response to its first deflection, losing a little energy with each cycle.

................

Ultimately, the shock setting doesn't determine how much load gets to the tyre or how much the suspension moves moves in response to the load. It alters the speed with which the load gets to the contact patch and the speed with which the suspension moves in response to the loads fed into it.

Even you're analogy of brakes is not 100% correct:

sucahyo
more brake reduce the stopping distance

Actually the limit on stopping distance is principally determined by tyre compound not brake force. If you're brakes are capable of overcoming the slip percentage of you're tyres (and all modern systems will be) then the limiting factor on stopping are you're tyres not you're brakes.

sucahyo
About the guide, agree.
About skipping, it can happen when the damper is too hard AND too soft.

No its does not, skipping is a characteristic of suspension travel that is not able to maintain contact with the road surface. I.E. suspension that can't react quickly enough to surface changes, a characteristic of hard damper settings, not soft damper settings.

I have worked in the motor industry for most of my adult life, and have been training in the industry for the last decade, I have never come across a softly damped car that has 'skipped' across a broken surface, but I have come across plenty of stiffly damped cars that will skip over broken surfaces (my own Celica will on very poor surfaces).

sucahyo
About theory, how if we test it backward? we test it first blindly (don't care which is which) and then see what real life fact is, and make conclution.
I am not assuming anything when I do the test, I judge the correctness comment later. I test it first using 10/1 10/1, note the car handling, then using 1/10 1/10, note the car handling, open the reference, judge.
About hacked value, I guess you still won't believe me even when I can (maybe impossible) show you 255 damper in GT4. For now, seeing that 255 damper in GT1 is stiff, 255 damper in GT2 is soft, I believe GT1 and GT2 damper is switched.
About higher spring rate stiffer damper, seeing duck's test for damper (see my previous test) I believe 1 is softest in GT4.

How can we test this blindly? And without reference to the real world?

You are insistant that a car will skip on hard or soft damper settings, which would lead me to believe that any blind test results would be worthless as you have no correct frame of reference to work with.

I've already said (many, many times) that I believe that hacked values are firstly totaly unrequired to determine damper settings and secondly that the results they provide could well be flawed as the physics engine does not allow you to flip or roll cars in any version of GT. Simply put, the code is going to step in and put a stop to how the car should react.

On the higher spring rate, higher damper, then yes I would use this as a guide. Its not however a rule, damper settings are very personal to the driver, car and track. As has been said they should always be matched to the spring rate (as they work together) but no magic rule exists to say with X spring rate you must always use Y damper rate.

sucahyo
1002kg silvia Q (spring rate stock 1.8/1.8, racing default 3.2/3.2) with 20/20 spring rate has spring frequency 120, with 2/2 spring rate has spring frequency 80. Spring frequency test done using softest damper and softest stabilizer in 15 seconds time.
So, using 2/2 spring rate is the same as normal road car. And if I follow the quote I should be running with 20/20 spring rate and super soft tire.

Do you honestly believe that the code in GT and GT2 (which was written to run on the PS) is actually analyising and using the actual real world spring rate frequency?

As I have said above (and many times before) no rule exists for matching spring rates and damper settings. In the real world its even more difficult as dampers are set by 'click' values (+ and - from a zero point) the levelof damping ofered by one click on a damper from one company will almost certainly be different to one clickon a damper from another company.

In closing you did not reply to this point from my last post:

Scaff
Think about it this way, which is more likely:

A - PD for some unknown reason switched the value range for damper settings only in GT2, then put it back for GT3 and GT4. And you are the first (and to my knowledge only) person to have spotted this.

or

B - The use of extreme (and sometimes hacked) values, along with a limited and at times confused understanding of how dampers work has thrown you test values out. Making it seem that the value range for dampers is reversed.

Now please do not take the above as me being rude, it is not intended in that way at all, I don't think that you could argue that you're understanding of how dampers functioned was limited at the start of this thread. You even admited as much yourself. Also I would be surprised if you would say that using extreme and sometimes hacked values did not run the risk of throwing the results out.

Regards

Scaff

Scaff · Jan 12, 2006

RXGem
I just finished printing your guide. It's awesome! Exactly what I've been looking for, a professional detailed guide to the world GT4 physics from a highly reliable source.. Excellent work there, can't wait for the next Volumes

Hope that it has helped to answer you're questions, but if you do have any that relate to the guide, either PM me of just post them in the thread for the guide.

BTW I will still try and dig outthe corner ranking info as its good stuff.

Regards

Scaff

sukerkin · Jan 12, 2006

@RXGem

Hello. It's good to hear from someone whose interested in the 'spannering' side of things in the GT world 👍.

Altho' I don't do things that much differently than SCaff, there are many different paths to the same goal in suspension tuning.

I start out by either rule of thumbing the spring rates of the car (based upon it's curb weight + any ballast I'll be using) or by using spring frequency calculations to arrive at a more mathematical answer (not necessarily more accurate, it just satisfies the engineer in me

).

Then I assign Damper Bound guestimates based upon the cars weight and drive train (usually 4 or 5 on lighter vehicles (900 - 1000kg) and 5 or 6 on heavier ones (1000kg+). I then generally plonk the Rebound at 8 or 9 both ends and test drive some laps (about ten or so to get a hold on the general handling characteristics of the car).

Some people like to dial in the LSD at this point (if fitted) and, truthfully, that's probably what you should do. I, however, am very 'Damper Orientated' in my approach and so I next decide on a Stabaliser and Camber suite to allow me to begin fettling the cornering balance of the car using the dampers

.

As you surmise, I will alter one facet at a time and then run a number of laps to see what effect it has had. Depending on the type and magnitude of the handling problem I have, I will either start with the Bound or the Rebound at the Front or the Rear. Generally, I'll use the Rear Rebound first and aim to sort out corner entry. Then Front Bound. Then Front Rebound, if there are any corner exit issues and finally Rear Bound if required.

However, as I've said before in this thread, the suspension is a complex animal and there is only so much that one component of it can achieve. So, much as I favour dampers as the tuning element of choice, if after attempting to balance the car with them, I cannot get the handling I wish, I will begin to use Toe, Ride Height, LSD, VCD etc.

I wish I had time to go into more but, sadly, work beckons and bosses loom so I'll have to sign off.

Mt. Lynx · Jan 12, 2006

Here are my settings on Tom´s Supra for Deep Forest:
Front/Rear

For sake of simplicity, I used racing medium tyres (R3) all around

Brake Balance: 6/5 (don´t know if this is adjustable in GT2)

Springrate: 10.5/10.0 As hard as I could have them, without vibrations and tons of understeer.
Rideheight: 75/78 Could probably be a little lower without bottoming out, but this corresponded great to springs and dampers.
Damper Bounce side: 2/2
Damper Rebound: 4/4 Damping is fairly soft, and this car reacted heavily on damping, and was almost undriveable (massive skipping) with higher values on this track.
Camber: 2.0/1.5
Toe: 1/-2
Stabilisers: 5/5

gearing:
trannytrick (slide Auto to max, slide Final to max, slide Auto to lowest) and then Final adjust to: 3.400, Leave the rest as is.

ASM: 0
TCS: 2

Downforce: max (50/70 in GT4)

LSD:
Initial torque: 25
Acceleration: 45
Deceleration: 40

All I did to the car before I started testing, was an oilchange. This gave me a total of 495bhp

Now, I know the Deep Forest track has slightly changed since GT2, so my time may not be compareable to a GT2 time, but I managed 1´09.465.
As a comparison, my Oreca Viper managed to pull off a 1´09.053 (with very little setup work done on it), so the setup for the Supra is quite good, for my drivingstyle.

Enjoy!

Scaff · Jan 12, 2006

Team666
Now, I know the Deep Forest track has slightly changed since GT2, so my time may not be compareable to a GT2 time, but I managed 1´09.465.
As a comparison, my Oreca Viper managed to pull off a 1´09.053 (with very little setup work done on it), so the setup for the Supra is quite good, for my drivingstyle.

Enjoy!

I will have to give these a go in GT2 and GT4.

In regard to the time, GT2 is going to be much faster anyway, its just much more forgiving than GT4. Have a read of this for more info

Gran Turismo - An analysis across the series

Regards

Scaff

Mt. Lynx · Jan 12, 2006

Scaff
I will have to give these a go in GT2 and GT4.

In regard to the time, GT2 is going to be much faster anyway, its just much more forgiving than GT4. Have a read of this for more info

Gran Turismo - An analysis across the series

Regards

Scaff

I kinda figured this, since even GT3 is more forgiving. I don´t have GT2, but I´ll run the same setup in GT3, and see how they compare. This is also why I gave a comparison with another car, wich exists in GT2 also. And as I said, not much was changed on the Viper (damping and gearing), just minor things to suit the track better.

sucahyo · Jan 13, 2006

Scaff
If you can feel a difference, but yo do not know which is which then I have to ask what is the point.

That's why I try to find different agreeable method.

Scaff
Just what is wrong with simply driving the car and working on its feel and how the car visually reacts with the road to determine what a damper value relates to?

I am a bad driver, don't use analog, so I don't have the necessary point to feel the car.

Scaff
If you are not looking to tune a car for handling, what are you looking for? You say you "My goal is to use hardest spring, highest damper, lowest stabilizer, lowest height tuning that I still can drive". Why? What is the reason?

For GT2, based on test: using hardest spring for faster acceleration, lowest height is for FF, I use higher for FR.
Based on feeling: using highest damper and lowest stabilizer is easier to counter steer when almost spinning.
Harder spring is faster is not arguable in GT2. 1000m, 400m, maxspeed, lap time, side by side proof that harder spring accelerate faster. I am not very sure about braking though.

Scaff
I do not believe that you can just pluck settings options out of the air and expect them to work, only through testing and gradual changes to settings will you get a balanced set-up.

They just for comparing setting, to find which is more oversteer. But I failed, because I don't feel the difference.

Scaff
As for it not being possiable to get too stiff dampers in GT2, GT3 and GT4. I could not agree with you less. In the Griffith tests dampers set to 10 in all versions of the series were too stiff. Set the Caterham Fireblade to a damper setting of 10 in GT4 and the car is virtually undrivable, that would meet my definition of being too stiff.

In Nissan GTR LM edition with 11.9/12.2 spring rate (purchasable special car), I don't feel the same skipping for GT1 vs GT2.

Scaff
I do need to just ask a question regarding which versions of GT you have tested, you refer a lot to the entire series, but if I have read you're posts correctly you have tested GT and GT2, is that correct. Also you run GT & GT2 on a PC using an emulator, what do you use as a controller? Do you have GT3 and/or GT4, because you are making a lot of assumptions about how the settings work in these two?

I use keyboard, I don't have GT3 & GT4, assumption made because no GT3 or GT4 hacker that interested in tuning yet, based on similarity with GT2.

Scaff
Are you fitting racing suspension or just changing the values using a 'hacking' device?

Racing suspension.

Scaff
If you are fitting racing suspension, why are you changing the spring rates back to the 'standard' values?

No reason, I didn't think it would matter.

Scaff
The reason I ask is because the fitting of uprated suspension does have an effect on the cars overall stiffness (this has been tested across the GT series many times), and again could result in flawed results.

Agree, but in GT2 you can calculate (Jmac do it) the increased number because you can see how much it increase.

Scaff
I did answer the GT1 5/5 damper setting point, you may have missed it.

ok.

Scaff
On the visual wheel bit, you need to look at much more than just what the wheel is doing, start looking at the car as a whole and how it feels to drive.

Too hard to tell the difference.

Scaff
I'm going to refer to Skip Barber's book Going Faster which covers the subject well (if you are unaware of who Skip Barber is I strongly suggest you google him before considering saying he is wrong)

Ok.

Scaff
Actually the limit on stopping distance is principally determined by tyre compound not brake force.

I mean like when you applying brake in your car.

Scaff
I have worked in the motor industry for most of my adult life, and have been training in the industry for the last decade, I have never come across a softly damped car that has 'skipped' across a broken surface, but I have come across plenty of stiffly damped cars that will skip over broken surfaces (my own Celica will on very poor surfaces).

I see top gear video showing almost zero (broken) damper in action, the car skip flat road on slalom. Have you ever try using standard spring with current damper?

Scaff
You are insistant that a car will skip on hard or soft damper settings, which would lead me to believe that any blind test results would be worthless as you have no correct frame of reference to work with.

Any suggestion for testing besides feeling?

Scaff
I've already said (many, many times) that I believe that hacked values are firstly totaly unrequired to determine damper settings and secondly that the results they provide could well be flawed as the physics engine does not allow you to flip or roll cars in any version of GT. Simply put, the code is going to step in and put a stop to how the car should react.

I don't believe PD would put stop code on everything, doing that will slowing down the game. It require much computing power to do that, and PS1 is slow. It's better to use it for anything else, especially if they have to do that in every frame rate. My selfcreate forecasting program would be three times slower with stop code.

Scaff
Its not however a rule, damper settings are very personal to the driver, car and track.

Ok

Scaff
Do you honestly believe that the code in GT and GT2 (which was written to run on the PS) is actually analyising and using the actual real world spring rate frequency?

What other choice they have? I think frequency is easy enough to simulate. And matching real life frequency with variable value would as simple as changing constanta.

Scaff
As I have said above (and many times before) no rule exists for matching spring rates and damper settings. In the real world its even more difficult as dampers are set by 'click' values (+ and - from a zero point) the levelof damping ofered by one click on a damper from one company will almost certainly be different to one clickon a damper from another company.

The number are different, but the principle is the same. And from what I read, 1 is not always softer in real life.

Scaff
In closing you did not reply to this point from my last post:

If the first one is true then my answer is:

I don't agree about the second, it would make the physics engine do different thing for different value, which I don't think it's wise.

Team666
Here are my settings on Tom´s Supra for Deep Forest

It seems the setting is not transferable. 20/20 spring rate is still drivable in GT2.
See this video, the top car use 20/20 spring rate, 10/9 10/9 damper, 1/1 stabilizer, other setting same. Try to see the car behaviour when meeting bump.

your setting (bottom) vs 20/20 spring (top) video

Mt. Lynx · Jan 13, 2006

sucahyo
It seems the setting is not transferable. 20/20 spring rate is still drivable in GT2.
See this video, the top car use 20/20 spring rate, 10/9 10/9 damper, 1/1 stabilizer, other setting same. Try to see the car behaviour when meeting bump.

your setting (bottom) vs 20/20 spring (top) video

Agreed. I tried the same settings in GT3, and they were great for drifting, but for a fast lap, they were too soft in GT3. The 10.5/10.0 springs are way too soft in GT3, where the usual "sweetrange" would be somewhere between 12.0 and 18.0. In GT4 that range is usually between 6.0 and 12.0 (personal preferance) Same with damping. In GT3 the damping didn´t matter as much as it did i GT4, although the 2/4 in GT4 was too soft in GT3. Looking at other setups I´ve made in GT3, 6/8 seems to be common for front dampers in a FR car. And the fact that it´s common tells me that damping physics are not as well implemented in GT3 as in GT4, and thus should be even worse in GT2.
I could not match my 1.09 done in GT4, using the same setup in GT3 (1.10).

This has made me think the whole deal is simply due to physicsengines, and has very little to do with themselves, ie a comparison between GT2 and GT4 is like comparing apples and oranges. They´re both fruits and grows on trees, but that´s all they have in common. GT4 is way more advanced, and implements tuning far better than any other game in the GT series. I would assume, since I´ve actually never played GT or GT2, but assuming that development in physics is somewhat constant, GT2 should be worse than GT3. Although I´ve read somewhere that GT2 and GT3 has the same engine, and that development between them is scarce.

sucahyo · Jan 13, 2006

Team666
They´re both fruits and grows on trees, but that´s all they have in common. GT4 is way more advanced, and implements tuning far better than any other game in the GT series.

Agree with more accurate physics. But what you define as better tuning? more noticable or more simple?

Mt. Lynx · Jan 13, 2006

sucahyo
Agree with more accurate physics. But what you define as better tuning? more noticable or more simple?

More noticable, more in depth, more advanced, more real lifelike, smaller margins of error, better feeling. (compared to GT3)
Oversteer/understeer is better implemented in GT4 (but not good enough), bumps are more noticable, tyregrip is more lifelike, but far too good compared to reality, but still better than GT3 (and most likely GT2).
The reason to make a proper setup is far more obvious in GT4 than in GT3 (and for sure GT2), as handling is far more sensitive in GT4.

Scaff · Jan 13, 2006

sucahyo
That's why I try to find different agreeable method.

I am a bad driver, don't use analog, so I don't have the necessary point to feel the car.

I use keyboard, I don't have GT3 & GT4, assumption made because no GT3 or GT4 hacker that interested in tuning yet, based on similarity with GT2.

I've group you're three answers together here as they are a major concern for me with regard to how you analyis damper settings.

No analog form of control is being used, rather the keyboard is used to control/drive the cars, which would also mean no feedback at all from the cars.

You are basing you're impresions of how dampers should react purely by looking at wheel movement, no 'feel' or true raection of the car is used. As far as accurate testing goes I have to say this is enough for me to (I'm sorry to say) not consider you're tests to be valid.

sucahyo
For GT2, based on test: using hardest spring for faster acceleration, lowest height is for FF, I use higher for FR.
Based on feeling: using highest damper and lowest stabilizer is easier to counter steer when almost spinning.
Harder spring is faster is not arguable in GT2. 1000m, 400m, maxspeed, lap time, side by side proof that harder spring accelerate faster. I am not very sure about braking though.

I would not argue with that, but it doesn't have a great deal to do with testing you're statement that higher damper values are soft.

sucahyo
In Nissan GTR LM edition with 11.9/12.2 spring rate (purchasable special car), I don't feel the same skipping for GT1 vs GT2.

I find that GT and GT2 react in the same way to damper settings, but the degree of reaction differs. Skipping on hard damper settings is much more prononuced in GT that GT2. Still does not indicate a reversal of the damper setting range.

sucahyo
Racing suspension.

No reason, I didn't think it would matter.

Agree, but in GT2 you can calculate (Jmac do it) the increased number because you can see how much it increase.

Again with regard to these points changing settings other than dampers when testing is always going to have an effect on the results. You can't just drop the spring rates to those of a road car (when you have racing suspension fitted) and not expect it to have an effect on the results.

sucahyo
Too hard to tell the difference.

Without the 'feel' offered by at least a good controller I would agree, a keyboard is just not an alternative.

sucahyo
I mean like when you applying brake in your car.

So do I, the braking system in you're car only determines how much braking force is applied to the discs. Tyres stop a car, brakes slow the wheel (and therefore tyre).

sucahyo
I see top gear video showing almost zero (broken) damper in action, the car skip flat road on slalom. Have you ever try using standard spring with current damper?

I'm sure I've seen just about every Top Gear shown, can't remember that one at all. Even so a broken damper (most likely on one corner - multipule damper failiure is uncommon) is not the same as dampers set to soft. You have one corner with no damping and the others with damping, the effects are going to be very different.

sucahyo
Any suggestion for testing besides feeling?

Feel and visual analysis are the best ways of looking at damper settings, I don't think a fixed test (particulalrly using extreme values) is going to give you a definative answer.

sucahyo
I don't believe PD would put stop code on everything, doing that will slowing down the game. It require much computing power to do that, and PS1 is slow. It's better to use it for anything else, especially if they have to do that in every frame rate. My selfcreate forecasting program would be three times slower with stop code.

No, not on everything. But certainly the code does not allow a car to flip or roll over, so we have stop codes in here. The extreme settings you have used would (if recreated on a real car) almost certainly result in a massive loss of control, which just can't be recreated in GT2.

sucahyo
What other choice they have? I think frequency is easy enough to simulate. And matching real life frequency with variable value would as simple as changing constanta.

And would require a huge amount of data to be stored for each car and its differnet spring, my point is that while the theory may be used, the exact real world data from each car is most likely not used.

sucahyo
The number are different, but the principle is the same. And from what I read, 1 is not always softer in real life.

Quite right, but has no impact at all in what we are looking at here. The vast majority of dampers are not even numbered, the setting is simple refered to a so many clicks from a zero point.

sucahyo
If the first one is true then my answer is:

Which is simply a graph plotting a series of values, it does not explain how these values are then used. It also shows GT4 values, a piece of software you acknowledge you do not have, as such the values for GT4 I would think as assumptive at best.

It is also not an answer to the question, which is why out of the millions of people who purchased and played GT2, you are the first (and as I say to my knowledge only) person to state that damper values are reversed.

An assumption that is based on a series of values, with no reference to how the values are actual used. With no reference to how the car 'feels' using these values, and writen before (by you're own admission) you had a full and clear understanding of how dampers worked.

sucahyo
I don't agree about the second, it would make the physics engine do different thing for different value, which I don't think it's wise.

My second point was that "The use of extreme (and sometimes hacked) values, along with a limited and at times confused understanding of how dampers work has thrown you test values out. Making it seem that the value range for dampers is reversed."

As the physics engine does not allow a car to flip or roll in any version of GT, then yes at a certain point the settings will force the physics engine to do something different. It will stop a car flipping or rolling, this is going to throw any results using these values as the car is not reacting as it should.

I don't however see how a limited understanding of how dampers works is going to change the physics engine.

sucahyo
It seems the setting is not transferable. 20/20 spring rate is still drivable in GT2.
See this video, the top car use 20/20 spring rate, 10/9 10/9 damper, 1/1 stabilizer, other setting same. Try to see the car behaviour when meeting bump.

your setting (bottom) vs 20/20 spring (top) video

Yes 20/20 is still driveable in GT2, but once again that totally misses the point. we are taking about damper settings here and if GT2 has reveresed values.

Now while GT, GT2 and GT3 are all more forgiving with settings that GT4 (as Team 666 has said) it is unfortunatly getting away from the point.

I've driven both cars with the same settings in GT2 and GT4, and no they are not directly transferable. However the basic charcteristics of the cars were similar.

What I also did was run each car (in GT2 & GT4) with damper settings of 10/10, in both cases the car was much, much stiffer.

The video you have posted with the side by side runs. The car at the top (firmer springs & damper, but softer Anti-roll bars (again I ask why did you not just change the damper settings?)) is visable more unsettled over bumps and can also be seen to be skipping more.

This again would be a clear indication that GT2 damper settings follow the same convention as the rest of the series.

I have to say other that a few graphs and videos using values so extreme that they are very questionable you have offered nothing definative to back up you're claim. In addition any mention of car 'feel' you have made can only be considered assumptive as you have admited to using AI drivers and the keyboard as an interface.

Sorry to sound so negative, but I don't see anything here that backs up you're claims.

Regards

Scaff

sucahyo · Jan 14, 2006

Team666
The reason to make a proper setup is far more obvious in GT4 than in GT3 (and for sure GT2), as handling is far more sensitive in GT4.

I see.

Scaff
You are basing you're impresions of how dampers should react purely by looking at wheel movement, no 'feel' or true raection of the car is used. As far as accurate testing goes I have to say this is enough for me to (I'm sorry to say) not consider you're tests to be valid.

Handling test is impossible for me then.

Scaff
I find that GT and GT2 react in the same way to damper settings, but the degree of reaction differs. Skipping on hard damper settings is much more prononuced in GT that GT2. Still does not indicate a reversal of the damper setting range.

Can't argue.

Scaff
You can't just drop the spring rates to those of a road car (when you have racing suspension fitted) and not expect it to have an effect on the results.

What value do you prefer? Default is not reliable.

Scaff
So do I, the braking system in you're car only determines how much braking force is applied to the discs. Tyres stop a car, brakes slow the wheel (and therefore tyre).

Ok.

Scaff
I'm sure I've seen just about every Top Gear shown, can't remember that one at all.

It's an old video, showing old BMW with all damping dead vs normal.

Scaff
Feel and visual analysis are the best ways of looking at damper settings, I don't think a fixed test (particulalrly using extreme values) is going to give you a definative answer.

I do it because I can't feel it.

Scaff
The extreme settings you have used would (if recreated on a real car) almost certainly result in a massive loss of control, which just can't be recreated in GT2.

I can only recreate my brother car damper feeling with 15 damper in GT2, 1 damper in GT1.

Scaff
And would require a huge amount of data to be stored for each car and its differnet spring, my point is that while the theory may be used, the exact real world data from each car is most likely not used.

No need to, each car have the same rate, making big car have slower bounce than light car (just found it recently). And PD admit they make the code first, adjust to real world later.

Scaff
It also shows GT4 values, a piece of software you acknowledge you do not have, as such the values for GT4 I would think as assumptive at best.

Yes, seeing you don't feel soft damper.

Scaff
It is also not an answer to the question, which is why out of the millions of people who purchased and played GT2, you are the first (and as I say to my knowledge only) person to state that damper values are reversed.

Only small number of those Million people is hybrider, and no hybrider interested in GT physics before. I never see people comparing spring rate or toe in hybrid way before. And I test reversed damper because Parnelli Bones ask to, so thats make it 2 curious people out of million. I won't be surprise if GT4 hybrider do not have interest to knowing GT4 physics.

Scaff
As the physics engine does not allow a car to flip or roll in any version of GT, then yes at a certain point the settings will force the physics engine to do something different. It will stop a car flipping or rolling, this is going to throw any results using these values as the car is not reacting as it should.

You are saying that 11 damper is irrelevant right? We have different opinion.

Scaff
I don't however see how a limited understanding of how dampers works is going to change the physics engine.

No it doesn't , it's just change the way we think.

Scaff
Yes 20/20 is still driveable in GT2, but once again that totally misses the point. we are taking about damper settings here and if GT2 has reveresed values.

Its just for showing that 20/20 is still drivable. So, GT4 setting is not trasnferable to GT2.

Scaff
I've driven both cars with the same settings in GT2 and GT4, and no they are not directly transferable. However the basic charcteristics of the cars were similar.
What I also did was run each car (in GT2 & GT4) with damper settings of 10/10, in both cases the car was much, much stiffer.

This is what make me assume that damper is likely the same. And someone in GT4 also like drifting in 10/10 damper too just like I do in GT2.

Scaff
The car at the top (firmer springs & damper, but softer Anti-roll bars (again I ask why did you not just change the damper settings?)) is visable more unsettled over bumps and can also be seen to be skipping more.

I will post it later, with 20 damper too, in a car that will be hoping around on 20/20 spring rate.

Scaff
This again would be a clear indication that GT2 damper settings follow the same convention as the rest of the series.

No, I wouldn't tune the same way in GT1 and GT2. in GT1 I would start from 1, in GT2 I would start from 10.

Scaff
I have to say other that a few graphs and videos using values so extreme that they are very questionable you have offered nothing definative to back up you're claim.

Assumption made, because I can't find other way to test other than by feeling, which can be incorrect.

Mt. Lynx · Jan 14, 2006

I firmly believe this whole thing is a misconception, derived from gamephysicsengines. The earlier versions of the GT games, (well, the later too, except GT4) assumes that stiffnes = better handling. This is not the fact, but we all know that. And as for GT2, wich gives you better handling, 1 or 10? If you say 10, it´s all settled. 10 is harder than 1! And also note, that dampers will only have a true effect if they work together with the springs. Without, or with very low value springs, dampers in themselves can not really tell you much about handling. If you want to continue to contuct these tests, use a springrate of approximatly 10 (if the scale goes from 2 - 20) instead of trying to eliminate the springs effect on the car. Doing so, pretty much tells you nothing about dampers.

Scaff · Jan 14, 2006

sucahyo
What value do you prefer? Default is not reliable.

Why would the default value be any more or less reliable, for me a default value on racing suspension is going to be a better bet than road car settings on racing suspension.

But better still, how about setting the spring rate to the car and track and then testing the dampers.

sucahyo
It's an old video, showing old BMW with all damping dead vs normal.

I've not seen it and its therefore hard to say, but if it is with dead danping then that is not the same as soft damping, but would be a good illustration of a car without damping at all.

sucahyo
I can only recreate my brother car damper feeling with 15 damper in GT2, 1 damper in GT1.

I have no idea what you're brothers car is, so its very difficult to say. However my test with the same car across the series showed (to me) consistancy with damper settings.

sucahyo
No need to, each car have the same rate, making big car have slower bounce than light car (just found it recently). And PD admit they make the code first, adjust to real world later.

Car do not hav the same spring type, make or rating. All yo have doen is back up my point that generallisations have been made.

sucahyo
Yes, seeing you don't feel soft damper.

Uh, yes you can feel soft damping, in the way the car moves and how it responds to bumps and track irregularities.

sucahyo
Only small number of those Million people is hybrider, and no hybrider interested in GT physics before. I never see people comparing spring rate or toe in hybrid way before. And I test reversed damper because Parnelli Bones ask to, so thats make it 2 curious people out of million. I won't be surprise if GT4 hybrider do not have interest to knowing GT4 physics.

Yes but you don't need to be a hydrider to have an interest in how any of the GT series relates to real life and how the values do or don't match up.

I have never hybrid a car in GT, yet I have carried out a huge amount of testing and comparison between how GT (all of them) and the real world compare. I have also been tuning in Gt since the first day of GT (I have bought every GT on release day), I have never felt that I needed to know a value in code to understand what was happening with tuning.

As such I still think the question remains valid.

sucahyo
You are saying that 11 damper is irrelevant right? We have different opinion.

I did not say that, all I said was that the 'normal' damper range is 1 - 10 and so as to allow anyone with GT2 to test this and to allow comparison accross the series it would be best to stick to the standard range of settings.

sucahyo
Its just for showing that 20/20 is still drivable. So, GT4 setting is not trasnferable to GT2.

I did say that they were not directly transfereable, but I also said the basic charcteristics remain.

sucahyo
This is what make me assume that damper is likely the same. And someone in GT4 also like drifting in 10/10 damper too just like I do in GT2.

You will find almost as many drift settings as you will drifters. Anyway stiff settings are very common in drifting, which would again imply that 10 is stiff in GT2.

sucahyo
I will post it later, with 20 damper too, in a car that will be hoping around on 20/20 spring rate.

Great a car with dampers set to 20 that hops around, if the tyres are losing contact with the ground then we have characteristics normally associated with stiff damper settings.

sucahyo
No, I wouldn't tune the same way in GT1 and GT2. in GT1 I would start from 1, in GT2 I would start from 10.

Fine, but once again it does not definatively prove anything.

sucahyo
Assumption made, because I can't find other way to test other than by feeling, which can be incorrect.

Yes feel can be incorrect, but its no more or less valid (and I would argue a lot more valid) than taking a value and without reference to how a value is used, assuming it means something.

Feel is how dampers are primaraly tuned in the real world, take Lotus for example, accknowledged masters of suspension and chassis tuning, almost all of which is done by 'hand'. Yes data is used, but it is the chassis engineers that drive and sign off the car.

Regards

Scaff

sucahyo · Jan 15, 2006

Team666
If you want to continue to contuct these tests, use a springrate of approximatly 10 (if the scale goes from 2 - 20) instead of trying to eliminate the springs effect on the car

Scaff
Why would the default value be any more or less reliable, for me a default value on racing suspension is going to be a better bet than road car settings on racing suspension.
But better still, how about setting the spring rate to the car and track and then testing the dampers.
Great a car with dampers set to 20 that hops around, if the tyres are losing contact with the ground then we have characteristics normally associated with stiff damper settings.

Finding car that can hop on 20/20 spring rate 10/10 10/10 damper in GT2 deep forest is hard, so far I found only jaguar XJR do that. Currently I've done making 20/20 spring rate video for 1 vs 10, 15 vs 10, 20 vs 10, 30 vs 10, 40 vs 10. I will be making video for default spring rate and 10/10 spring rate.
If it's not ok to use this car, please choose another. But I will finished this first. The video maybe posted tomorrow.
On 20 damper its true that the car jumps more on 20/20 spring rate, but in default spring rate the car swing more with little jumping. I hope I can make all video fast.

sucahyo · Jan 16, 2006

the upload process is long.
can you guys tell me again how the damper do in GT4 corner braking (smythee neil robert phase 1)? do using 10 front bound increase understeer compare to 1 front bound?
Last answer still not clear enough

sukerkin · Jan 16, 2006

I know I keep saying it (sorry) but suspension tuning is very complicated in that each element interacts with each other element and altho' it is possible to say some things with certainty about the function of each part in isolation, it's not that easy when dealing with the system as a whole.

The damper function in a corner will be affected by the general inherent balance of the car as well as roll stiffness induced by the springs and the anti-roll bars. However, it is a rough rule of thumb that increasing the damper (Bound) stiffness (up from 1) will increase grip at the end you stiffen ... up to a point, at which time grip will be lost once more (akin to the way that increasing camber will increase grip up to a certain point and then lose it again). Also, again roughly, increasing the Rebound of the damper towards ten will encourage understeer at that end of the car. It should be noted that the Rebound of a Damper is largely held to be the dominant factor in influencing handling.

What effects these have on the cars tendency to understeer or oversteer in a corner phase is very much affected by the weight, drive-train and overall handling characteristics of the chassis.

Thus, altho' I am a major proponent of using damper tuning for amending a cars handling, there is a limit to what you can achieve with them. If the cars not balanced reasonably well to start with then you're not going to see the effects you want from tinkering with the dampers.

Mt. Lynx · Jan 16, 2006

^spot on!
short answer; it depends on what car you use, and what corner you are talking about! And I can also add that very few (if any) cars will have 1 or 10 as their optimum damper setting. On any track.

sucahyo · Jan 16, 2006

I see, agree with complicated thing, I'll try to see if I can feel the damper grip the same way camber do (I can understand camber spiky grip).

About the video , done, each video file is about 8 MB, 150 MB total. I decide not to post side by side video, I post individual setting video instead, I think it should be easier to look. I create more video than planned.

default spring rate
d1, d10, d15, d17, d20, d30, d40

10/10 spring rate
s10d1, s10d10, s10d15, s10d17, s10d20, s10d30, s10d40

20/20 spring rate
s20d1, s20d10, s20d15, s20d17, s20d20, s20d30, s20d40

Scaff, from your point of view can you explain each video following this two scenario:

Assume that stop code exist, hacked value is irrelevant.
Assume that stop code not exist, hacked value is relevant.

I will make my version of explanation too, but I like to hear your version first. I like to hear comment from everyone too.

GT4 Dampers

Mt. Lynx

GT racing!

sucahyo

Scaff

sucahyo

Mt. Lynx

GT racing!

sukerkin

Scaff

RXGem

Scaff

RXGem

sucahyo

Scaff

Scaff

sukerkin

Mt. Lynx

GT racing!

Scaff

Mt. Lynx

GT racing!

sucahyo

Mt. Lynx

GT racing!

sucahyo

Mt. Lynx

GT racing!

Scaff

sucahyo

Mt. Lynx

GT racing!

Scaff

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sucahyo

sukerkin

Mt. Lynx

GT racing!

sucahyo

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