XB360: AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH / Finance Analyst Ehrenberg: XB = "disastrous endeavor"

Actuall they are not all tech blogs, nor are the authors some kind of anonymous bloggers, and they are but a very small sample of articles saying the exact same things that have been published in the NY Times, Wall Street Journal, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, SF Chronicle, etc.... and one quick search on Google you'd have known that before spreading more untruths. 👎

I didn't deny 360 problems, I merely said the articles I read you posted are from tech blogs, which any idiot can do. I can make a blog an ramble about how the Wii is the biggest failure in the world, but it doesn't make it true. Unless there is an actual market survey out there I take everything with a grain of salt because you don't know what is biased in which way or even what country it is apart of.

[quoteThis thread is to discuss the actual, factual problems Microsoft is having with the Xbox 360, its Gaming Division, and how that is impacting the company, and speculation on what might happen because of it.[/quote]

It seems to me it's more of your anti-360 babble.

If you don't like the topic, have nothing to share that relates to the topic, or plan on posting more misleading or deliberately untrue remarks, DON'T POST IN IT.

It's actually against the AUP to tell me I can not post somewhere on these boards, I got in trouble for telling someone that. But I really did have something to add, I said I don't think a majority of these articles are worth mentioning and I think a lot of it is anti-360 mumbo jumbo.

But whatever, it's a beautiful day and I don't feel like arguing over a couple of dumb consoles. When I get back home I'll have the leisure to play the 360, the PS3 (I'm buying one) and the Wii. I don't care which one is better, I'll just have fun which is exactly what a console is made for...it shouldn't be ones life.
 
Xbox Live Gold is overpriced.

I bought my 12 month Xbox live membership for £34 from Amazon. That works out to approximately £2.83 per month. Overpriced? I don't think so.

Xbox Live online gameplay sucks. A weapon like Halo 2’s energy sword or Gears of War’s shotgun offer strong evidence that the user hosting a match—which translates into having no lag at all—has a terrible advantage over the other players.

I have an 8mb Broadband connection at home and have been using the online service for that time with no major lag issues. My updates are always speedy and I have very few disconnections. I have more lag when playing my PC online.

Have you tried to download a big file from Xbox Live? You can leave the Xbox 360 on, go to have breakfast, lunch and dinner, then read “War and Peace” and maybe the download will be completed. Granted, Microsoft is saying that the soon-to-arrive Spring Dashboard Update will help this process in a couple of ways, but…

I regularly download demos and updates off Xbox Live without any long download times. Again, I have an 8mb broadband connection and never have any problems. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Microsoft Points Program-Another thing that is totally unfair for paid subscribers is that paid content costs the same for Silver and Gold users. There should be some advantage for those who are paid subscribers and there should also be some benefit for those who buy more content.

Sounds like a good idea to me. I always understood that Silver members can't play online. Gold members can. That's why a gold membership cost more. Why should a silver member pay more for download content?

No Ads- If you are paying for your online-game service, why do you have to see ads on those Xbox 360 blades? Furthermore, if you are paying for a game, why you have to see ads in games? I’m cool with ads making content free, but, conversely, paying for content should remove any ad.

Fair point, but to be honest I rarely notice the advertisements on Xbox Live. They only normally advertise games, which is good, because I'm playing a games console. It's not as if there advertising a chocolate bar or penis enlargements.

From a gamer's standpoint, it doesn't much matter right now. There are tons of games available for the XB360, but with only a 10 million user base and sales already leveling off, and no money coming in from the original Xbox, shareholders are losing patience with Microsoft's management, and may very well demand that Microsoft pull out of the console market.

After all, even MS can't justify a 5-year $21 billion dollar investment that isn't even coming close to paying off... it is after all a publicly traded company, and I would venture to guess, most investors with control over the largest numbers of shares are not hardcore gamers. They want to see results that turn into profit, and after five years, all they are seeing is a rising giant red figure!

To be honest, I wasn't aware that Microsoft were in that amount of debt with the Xbox. As long as the games keep coming I'll be more than happy.
 
MS having trouble with it's console? I thought it was Sony who were having trouble selling the PS3 (which, by contrast to current PS2 sales, they are), but I never knew they have had this problem for so long.

Nonetheless, I guess it's good for Sony lovers (myself included).
 
I agree. I'm sure the main reason for the 120GB HDD is for downloading video content and as you mentioned, storing music and standard def movies. This is likely one of the reasons it isn't selling well compared to the regular X360 as most users likely do not consider that option worth the extra money.

I wouldn't say all that, because I have a few friends that bought the Elite to have that extra functionality. Plus they wanted HDMI like it was a cure for cancer.


I agree as well, however downloading 1GB of content is quite different than downloading 20GB of content for one game. This is where developers for the X360 are going to have a very limited market to sell large downloads to, as not only are there limited numbers of X360's with a HDD over 20GB, but how many would want to hassle with the process and eat up their HDD space with just a couple large games? This is why high data capacity blue laser optical drives are needed for today's and tomorrow's gaming needs. Until 1 Terabyte drives sell for under $100 and download speeds increase ten-fold over today's average broadband networks. Games will continue to be distributed on discs, and for consoles, high capacity single disc releases will not only be desired, but in some cases, needed.

I agree, and I still stick by my standpoint that Microsoft made quite a large error, by not introducing the 360 with an HD-DVD drive to begin with. Games could be much more grand, so to speak, if the data-side were there.


Firmware updates are terrific things, however they are only useful for features that have the hardware already installed that can support the software.

For instance, regarding optimal picture and audio quality, HDMI, especially v1.3 is highly regarded, and currently the best possible A/V signal path for consumer electronics. This is hardware that no software update is going to magically make it appear. The only way you can have it is if it is built into the console. Some hardware can be made as add-ons, like the HD DVD player, WiFi adapters, memory car readers, but some cannot, like HDMI. However, add-ons have rarely sold well as a lot of consumers like to have these things built-in for convenience, rather than have a bunch of devices plugged into the main unit and taking up more shelf space.

Very true, but given the hardware shortfalls, the Firmware updates do bring a nice breath of fresh air, so to speak, when certain features are desired (non-hardware based).


In terms of games, one man's poison is another man's pleasure. In other words debating over what constitutes a good game is rather meaningless as it’s largely a subjective choice. What you might consider worth getting, others may well disagree.... and you'd both be right as it’s simply a personal choice. However, judging by the majority of comments in GTP’s PS3 board, many people are really enjoying a good deal more than just a couple games, and many seem quite happy with the current selection, which is naturally smaller than X360, but it’s also a year younger, and I think most understand that.

Obviously everyone is going to prefer having a larger selection of games to choose from, and it appears the game library for the PS3 is definitely ramping up, and right in line with the number of X360 games that came out when it was less than a year old. It also has its fare share of high profile exclusives scheduled for release, so clearly there is a lot of exaggerating going on when you see comments from people who do not even own a PS3 on how there are no decent games out for it.

Very true, it is all subjective. But, even on the list you provided, many of those games are not out yet, and you cannot consider them for the running, if they're not available to play. If you want to compare lists of tba games as well, you're going to have to look through Xbox's, and I can assure you that there's many not on there, considering Wikipedia isn't the most current listing, nor is it the most diverse.

All in all, I chose Microsoft's console for the content, because I just didn't want to wait to play with my friends. Will the PS3 be something that I want? I have yet to see it. Maybe GT5 will be phenomenal and I'll just need to buy it for that. ;)
 
My mistake, but it is still selling slower than the X360, and is a year younger, so I suspect compared to X360 sales from last year, it is selling at a rate a good deal less, but regardless of that, it has to be way less than the PS2, although I read somewhere that it took a while for PS2 sales to really take off... which is a hopeful sign for Microsoft as well.

From what I've seen Sony shipped something ridiculous like 25 million units before the GameCube and Xbox even launched... which with the 360, MS shipped less than half. Granted, I saw that from Sony's bullet point list from E3 years ago, so take that with what you will.

I think you'd be surprised, even here on GTP I have given Sony and the PS3 there fair share of criticism where criticism was due. Part of the problem though is you have often beat me to the punch in the PS3 forums. :D

Besides the differences in the consoles themselves, possibly one reason you may perceive me as more biased towards the PS3 is that one thing that always gets me riled up is when someone posts blatantly misleading posts and disguise personal opinion as unquestionable facts… and unfortunately I see this coming a lot more from certain X360 supporters far more so then that from PS3 supporters. I know there is one seriously biased PS3 evangelist that we both have had our run-ins with, you more so than myself, but if you don’t beat me to the punch, I’m all to willing to address their misleading comments just as I have with some over zealous X360 fans.

👍 Seriously, I appreciate a healthy informative debate, especially when facts are discovered and exposed, and you often are at the heart of many of those discussions. 👍

OK. 👍
 
toyomatt84,

Great comments again!

I agree with much of what you have shared, but I believe you may have misunderstood what I was saying about the number of games out now for PS3:
toyomatt84
Very true, it is all subjective. But, even on the list you provided, many of those games are not out yet, and you cannot consider them for the running, if they're not available to play.
I wasn't referring to the whole list, only the 40 on there that are already out, which is why I said this:
Actually there are close to 40, and that's not including any of the PSN games.
Again, this is not to turn this into an X360 VS PS3 topic, I brought it up only because there was some comments in this thread that said there were only 3 or even just 8+ games for the PS3... and clearly there are a good deal more than that.

More importantly though I want to thank you for your recent responses in this thread, and apologize for the tone I used when I originally responded to you first post. As I suspect you are already aware, there are some that go out of their way to spread misinformation and grossly exaggerate facts to try and argue a point or discredit other people’s valid points. When I read your first post it seemed that was exactly the kind of person you appeared to be, especially the comment about me being a fanboy and suggesting the articles were heavily biased. I obviously unfairly reacted to you in that way when I first responded to your post, and I sincerely apologize for that.

In stead of escalating things, or even getting aggressively defensive, you responded in a very calm and informative way, even going so far as to clear up your misunderstanding on the status of MGS4, and because of that, you have done a wonderful job of staying on point and encouraging a thoughtful and informative discussion. You have set a great example for me, and hopefully others on how to respond in a similar situation. 👍
 
Again, this is not to turn this into an X360 VS PS3 topic, I brought it up only because there was some comments in this thread that said there were only 3 or even just 8+ games for the PS3...

Just to clarify on that 8+ games figure... I was talking about good, fun games mostly everyone will like. Obviously trash like Sonic the Hedgehog and Full Auto 2 isn't included. ;)
 
toyomatt84,

Great comments again!

I agree with much of what you have shared, but I believe you may have misunderstood what I was saying about the number of games out now for PS3:
I wasn't referring to the whole list, only the 40 on there that are already out, which is why I said this:
Again, this is not to turn this into an X360 VS PS3 topic, I brought it up only because there was some comments in this thread that said there were only 3 or even just 8+ games for the PS3... and clearly there are a good deal more than that.

More importantly though I want to thank you for your recent responses in this thread, and apologize for the tone I used when I originally responded to you first post. As I suspect you are already aware, there are some that go out of their way to spread misinformation and grossly exaggerate facts to try and argue a point or discredit other people’s valid points. When I read your first post it seemed that was exactly the kind of person you appeared to be, especially the comment about me being a fanboy and suggesting the articles were heavily biased. I obviously unfairly reacted to you in that way when I first responded to your post, and I sincerely apologize for that.

In stead of escalating things, or even getting aggressively defensive, you responded in a very calm and informative way, even going so far as to clear up your misunderstanding on the status of MGS4, and because of that, you have done a wonderful job of staying on point and encouraging a thoughtful and informative discussion. You have set a great example for me, and hopefully others on how to respond in a similar situation. 👍

Well thanks for the kind words. ;) I will admit, some of the things I said might have been overly abrasive and I probably "jumped the gun" on many false conclusions when considering what kind of point you were trying to get across. Sometimes, unfortunately, I see people post up long derogatory articles on something they don't like, that usually hold no relevant or factual information pertinent to their argument. I was clearly wrong in assuming that when I first saw your post, considering the following posts truly proved you knew your stuff, and had done the proper research to back it up.

I just wish it were that easy, to just hope people would follow positive discussion, and not just turn cheek and fight their way through huge arguments that neither benefit any outside reader nor benefit their attitude. In all honesty, most people will quick browse this thread, and pass by without a second glance. I guess it's just the nature in people. ;)

Anyways, thanks again for the kind words, but the compliments are mutual to both parties. ;)
 
Copying related threads in order to try and keep the PGR4 thread on-topic:


It clears up any doubt that Bizarre Creations is good at spin control. ;)

You could just as well turn that back around see that he is clearly admitting that, "yes, if we or had we spent more time and resources on PGR4 we could and would need more disc capacity than a single DVD9".

It’s also disappointing to see a spokesman fall into the same weak argument as often seen on forums where someone calls someone else a fanboy just because they pointed out a fact that makes their position/opinion look flawed.

Yes, there are "fanboys", many who drastically exaggerate the facts, and who will blindly support whatever it is that they are a "fanboy" of, but there are many consumers who are simply pointing out real facts, one of which happens to be that there are real limitations to having games on DVD9, just as there was when games were on CD:ROM. Imagine what it would have been like had the PS2 or the original Xbox been released with only a CD:ROM drive… well, that is pretty much what we are seeing with the X360 being released with only a DVD drive.

That said, as others have mentioned, it's not the size of a game that determines its quality, and that many "small" games are absolute classics and a joy to play, and I'm sure there have been many "massive" games that were terrible games, and a waste of time to play.

That said, no amount of spin is going to hide the fact that DVD9 has been around for over ten years, and some game developers were using up its limited capacity as far back as four years ago. And all anyone has to do is track the history of game development for consoles and the physical data size of games over the last 10 years and one quickly sees it is following a similar formula of growth as determined by Moore's Law and thus current and future games are most certainly limited by DVD9.

In fact, as seen from Resistance: FOM, Lair, Heavenly Sword, Killzone 2, MGS4, GT5 and other PS3 games, developers are already developing and releasing games using 2-5 times more disc space than those on a DVD9.

Yes, developers could release a multi-disc set, but with today's non-linear games, that would drive gamers crazy... which is why there have been almost no 2-disc games on consoles. GT2 came out over seven years ago, and it had the advantage of having basically two different game modes that could be broken up rather successfully.

Others might argue that, like some PC games, they could release multi-discs that you would then copy onto your console's HDD, but first you would have to have a fairly large HDD, and then you'd have to be willing to spend a very long time copying it to the HDD. And unless you had a huge HDD, or very few games, you'll also have to be willing to spend countless hours deleting and re-installing your games off the HDD... thus why I seriously doubt we will see many, if any multi-disc games for the X360.

There are a lot of things you can say about the X360, much of which is very good, but one thing it will always be remembered for are the many sacrifices Microsoft made, incuding the lack of any next-gen blue laser optical disc drive, in order to get a one year head start on Sony and to cut as many costs as possible, including its design.

Considering the X360 has not come close to matching the sales of the PS2 along the same product release timeline, and with its current sales pace, may not even match the sales rate of the original Xbox. And considering that Microsoft has lost well over $6 billion dollars already in their Xbox endeavors, and is expected to post another $1-2 billion dollar loss by the end of the year, suggests that their gamble not only hasn't paid off, but has made things much worse as far as recouping their significant investment.

It is for these reasons and others, why many MS investors are furious with Microsoft, and are calling for an and to future Xbox endeavors... at least in terms of hardware. In terms of software, MS is in a position to make a killing, but it's their hardware that continues to drain them of cash.. and the whole purpose of the X360 was to change that, and instead it made things far worse for MS...

And after the last couple weeks, where investors saw Microsoft lose $25 billion dollars in stock value... MS investors are not in a good mood!


Getting back to the subject, I have no doubt PGR4 will be a fine game on a single DVD9, but I also am not foolish enough to believe that had they given the game more resources, it would have not only been just as good, but likely much better and bigger if they had the ability to put it on a HD DVD or Blu-ray discs.





I was watching something the other day that had discussed the format wars, presumably DL.TV or Diggnation, and they pretty much said what is going on now was inevitable. There is no way in hell Microsoft would want to shell out the cash to Sony for the Blu-Ray drive in the X360 from the get-go, so that end of the bargaining table certainly is covered. That however didn't free them from criticism over skipping out of HD-DVD in the X360, which likely would have evened out the format wars just a bit more.

I guess I really can't fault Microsoft too much, as they just want to make money (I thought the X360 already broke even, and then the issues pulled it back down?). As long as they make good games that I enjoy, I'm happy... Plus, there is always GFW on the PC...





Not even close. They don't even expect to be profitable on a quarterly basis until sometime in 2008, but that's just quarterly. They had a cumulative loss of $5.4 billion last year, and in their last quarterly report, they showed another $700 million loss from their Xbox division, and have already informed Wall Street to expect another $1-2 billion dollar loss from that division by the end of the year, largely due to having to extend the warranty and cover the cost of repairs or replacements for customers experiencing the dreaded 3-Red-Rings of Death.

Unfortunately though, this extended warranty wont cover the overwhelmingly large number of their customers who are having other serious problems with their X360 consoles that require repair or replacement. If Microsoft decides to cover these issues as well, then we can expected additional expeneses of upwards of $3 billion dollars.

So even if by 2008, they have a quarter that is finally profitable, say they make $100 million in profits for the second quarter of 2008, that would mean they would need 80 similar performing quarters to just break even on their investment... that's twenty years!

You are going to be very hard pressed to find one single investment analyst with a shred of credibility that will be willing to predict that the X360 division will ever earn enough profits to wipe out all the losses MS' Xbox division has had over the last five years and continues to have from their Xbox endeavors.

There are already cases studies on this at some MBA schools... that's how bad this is for Microsoft.


But there are already threads on GTP discussing this, so let’s get back onto PGR4, which I still believe will be a great game, and certainly a top selling game for X360! 👍





Now, when you say "they" do you mean Microsoft as a whole? Is Microsoft in general losing money, or is it just their Xbox division?
 
Now, when you say "they" do you mean Microsoft as a whole? Is Microsoft in general losing money, or is it just their Xbox division?
Just their Xbox division. As a company, they are of course very profitable, and are on pace to exceed last year's annual net income of over $12 billion dollars - you have to love those profit margins from software sales!!! 👍

The problem though is that they have nearly 10 billion outstanding shares, thus have (or I should say "had") a market capital of $300 billion dollars. For a company with that kind of market capital, investors need to see even better profits than that if they hope to see the stock value rise.

Instead, in just the last two weeks, Microsoft has lost over $25 billion dollars in market capital due to investors dropping or cutting down their investments in MS from their portfolios.

Even a company as successful as Microsoft, simply cannot afford to keep financing a division that is losing well over a billion dollars every year, and has no reasonable prospects for ever breaking even on its investment.

While I do not expect MS to simply cut bait, and end their endeavors in the console market. Instead, I think it is quite reasonable to expect them to pull out of the console hardware market in relatively short order, and stick to what they do best and what is most profitable… software. So for the console market, that means games.

Now what might prevent that is just pure stubbornness, and not wanting to admit they failed, and having the necessary cash flow to make up for the losses, no matter how bad they get. The problem with this though is that Microsoft is not a privately held company, and if investors continue to get angry over the losses from the Xbox division, and that anger is translated to selling stock, or worse, an actual investor coupe whereby MS top level management is forced out. Well then it won’t matter how stubborn the board of directors for Microsoft want to be. In that case, the group of investors holding the majority of shares will decide what actually happens in the end.
 
Id's Rage has been said to be on 2 DVD for the 360 and PC. An FPS action game on two DVD's. You'd think RPG's would be the only ones to go multi disc. I still hate reinstalling Half life 2 and its 5 discs. ID'd "Mega Texture" is taking up 20GB of data uncompressed. That still huge after compression to a disc.
 
Latest compilation of reports from video game industry analysts on the future of the 360 as well as the PS3 and Wii:

Analysts: 360 in trouble, Wii is a fad, PlayStation has loyal gamers
Published on Jun 08, 2008 at 08:00AM by Isaac C. at Qj.net
In the past few months, we've heard several groups from the video game industry give their opinions on the console war. Some of the more outspoken ones, including Electronic Arts and the President of Ready at Dawn studios, have expressed favor towards the PlayStation 3.

Analysts from Lazard Capital Markets and DFC Intelligence had the same sentiments, saying that the PlayStation 3 will soon be on top in the near future.

Now, analysts from the UK, Europe, and North America chime in with their own opinions, which they expressed at the Nordic Game 2008 conference. However, instead of focusing just on how big the PlayStation 3 will be in the future, they were more opinionated on the fate of the Xbox 360 and the Wii.

The analysts from the conference expressed how the Xbox 360 will be in trouble in the coming year. DFC Intelligence analyst David Cole went as far as to say that "The Xbox 360's going to come in third place when all's said and done." Other analysts went on to say that the Xbox 360 is strong in the US, but is declining everywhere else.

On the subject of the Wii, Swedish analyst Martin Lindell remarks that the console is in trouble if it doesn't produce a steady stream of games that please its consumers. Because its install base is composed mostly of casual gamers, people might tend to shelf the console if the "fad" feeling dies down. One analyst expressed it this way:

You've got to remember there's a difference between buying and playing - the fact that you get your grandma to play the game doesn't mean she's going out to buy it. I'm still in that kind of faddish feeling about the Wii.

They also talked about the PlayStation 3 of course. They noted how the console is steadily gaining on the Xbox 360, and how a loyal fanbase is another factor to its success. Nick Parker, analyst for Screen Digest, remarks that many PlayStation gamers of previous generations hold off from buying a next-gen console because they are waiting for the release of anticipated titles on the PlayStation 3.

Strong opinions, yes? Still, nothing is set in stone, and we haven't heard the fat lady sing yet. We'll keep you updated on developments in the console war, but for now you can read up on what else the analysts have to say by following the link below.
 
None of which is too terribly surprising (I asked myself a couple of months ago: after Brawl comes out, what then?), but I will also doubt that Nintendo actually cares that much.
 
Something Vaguely Related.
Yahoo Gaming News
Sony has lost over $3 billion on the PS3

Mario and Master Chief seen hi-fiving.

By Ben Silverman
b

Think you paid too much for your Playstation 3? Don't expect any sympathy from Sony.
In the company's fiscal 2008 annual report, Sony revealed that they've now lost roughly $3.3 billion (that's billion with a B) on the Playstation 3 since its launch. That breaks down to $2.16 billion in 2007, followed by a notably smaller but equally daunting $1.16 billion loss in 2008.


The reason? Pricing the console below its production cost. That's right - that hefty $599 you paid for the PS3 back when it first launched was significantly cheaper than the cost of producing it in the first place, and while the retail price has come down some, the losses keep piling up.
Investors have reason to sweat. In a statement, Sony claimed "the large-scale investment required during the development and introductory period of a new gaming platform may not be fully recovered." They went on to note that they've invested a great deal of money into R&D for the console, a sum they might not be able to recoup if the PS3 "fails to achieve such favorable market penetration."


Sony fanboys should take heart, however. Losing money on hardware is relatively common in the video game biz, as companies routinely lower prices to sell more units and thus stimulate software sales. Sony's game division saw a 26% sales spike last quarter, a trend they expect will continue on the strength of strong exclusives like the recently released Metal Gear Solid 4 and the upcoming sequel Resistance 2.
But will it be enough?

For comparison purposes only, really. I doubt Sony shareholders are worried too much about it as Sony's Blu-Ray gamble paid off, but it does show that Sony managed to halve their operating losses within a year while Microsoft is seemingly having more trouble doing so.
 
I imagine the $1 billion + they set aside for that and the warranty extension didn't help matters (though the proposed class-action may have hurt them more), no.
 
I saw the Sony 3 billion dollar thing too. I was gonna say the same thing until I saw your post.

Anyway, who really cares if they lost money though (both MS and Sony)? I'm just glad we got many good games on 360. Right now I only have 2 games on PS3 so can't comment too much on the games for PS3 (dont have MGS or Uncharted). Maybe sometime in the future I'll get mgs4.
 

I'm not really a big fan of MGS series at all, that's why I said "maybe". I was a never of fan of the series, just how I don't like Final Fantasy or Zelda for that matter. At the moment, I'm going through Halo 3, and plan to play some Neverwinter Nights 2 for PC.
 
I'm glad to see the observation in the difference between what Sony is going through and what MS is going through. The losses are about the same (depending on what MS has done over the last 6 months or so, being that they lost over 3 some time ago). None the less, Sony's 3b loss is a problem. I agree though, the shareholders probably aren't too worried. Since the brightest area for the PS3 is the future and losses are substantially less than last year, I'd say the PS3 will continue this trend and show 2009 as a "good" year.

Only time will tell what's going to happen.
I think the key for MS in this is to show market longevity. They need to make customers feel like the 360 is the better system, not simply a good system. That's what I see the challenge being and one of the major differences between this generation and the last. With the first Xbox I was well aware of it being the best in technical specs and I was sure it was a good system (without any major flaws and a relatively good library). However, this time around, the library is still good but the system's superiority and reliability are still in question.
Satisfy those concerns and I think MS can turn around the early losses. Fail to meet those concerns (both actually and in perception to the larger gaming community) and the 360 may continue the losing trend.

Instead of a high-five with master chief, Mario should be patting himself on the back while the other two duke it out. :ouch:
 
They need to make customers feel like the 360 is the better system, not simply a good system. That's what I see the challenge being and one of the major differences between this generation and the last. With the first Xbox I was well aware of it being the best in technical specs and I was sure it was a good system (without any major flaws and a relatively good library). However, this time around, the library is still good but the system's superiority and reliability are still in question.
Satisfy those concerns and I think MS can turn around the early losses. Fail to meet those concerns (both actually and in perception to the larger gaming community) and the 360 may continue the losing trend.

How can they make customers feel the 360 is the better system when it isn't. This time around Microsoft released their system a year earlier. At best it's about equal with the PS3, but even so it still doesn't have a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD drive.
 
Which is likely where we're going to see problems in the future. If Microsoft has to adapt to a Blu-Ray drive, that's going to add costs. My guess is that all of this otherwise forward technology is where the price issues come into effect with the PS3, but the flip side to that coin is Microsoft not spending enough on R&D with only moderately forward hardware.

My guess is that we're going to see the 360 "peak" long before the PS3, which means a lifespan of something gaining on 10 years seems reasonable to Sony... Making the best use of the development costs. But that being said, it seems like Microsoft could easily take the hit with stuff like this, after all, their pockets are lined with more dollars than I could ever dream of...

We'll see.

...For that matter, I'd be interested in how much Nintendo is making off of every Wii...
 
I was reading arcitcle that Xbox Live is overpriced. I agree, PSN has free networks, and DON forget most popular PC FREE online plays. Games like BF2, Counter Strike, etc.. are all free online. Have almost NO lag compared to consoles. Free gaming online is a must in today's market. Thats why I quit Xbox Live because I am not a sucker to microsoft and pay for small online experience
 
Yes, because paying $4.00 a month for online gaming is such a killer to your month budget...

You either have it or you don't, its your choice really. Throwing PSN in really doesn't do much good, and don't even bother dragging in Nintendo's setup either. Some of us like it, some of us don't. Most matches are stable, lag-free, and otherwise enjoyable experiences in the games I play.

Live and let live I suppose... If so many people were demanding free online play, and because of it, Microsoft is losing business... They'd make it free. Guess what? They aren't.
 
The Microsoft Press Conference is Today, anyone going to spy on the enemy?

I'm recording it, as I am all the coverage on G4, but I definitely don't consider Microsoft or the Xbox an enemy. Far from it. Competition is great. Imagine what the PS3 and PSN may have been like without having to compete against Microsoft, the 360 and XBL - and vice versa.

In fact, I'm hoping the PS3's success will force Microsoft to come out with a new console that truly offers next gen technology, full HD media support, 3rd party peripheral support (no crappy MS wheels!), 3rd party hardware support (no $200 120GB MS licensed drives), and improved reliability. When that happens I'll be among the first to buy one! 👍




Maybe, but they're claiming they are out selling the PS3 (by maybe a million units according to their chart), and that they will continue to outsell the PS3 this generation through offering exclusive Xbox titles & Live.

I'm recording the coverage so I have not seen it yet, but global sales of PS3 have been higher than 360 for several months now. In fact, until recently, even PS2 sales have been higher than 360 sales.

ConsoleSales2008071320080114.jpg





G.T
Yeah, I know how you feel, but it's good to know a lot more people will get the FF experience now.

I agree. I'm always in favor of multi-platform releases... as long as the developer doesn't dumb down or limit the size and scope of a game just so it will work with all platforms.

As a follow up to that chart I posted, using VG Charts sales database, I thought it might be interesting to see how global console sales have compared over the last 12 months:

Code:
Wii	19,568,324
PS3	10,094,908
PS2	 9,231,549
360	 9,202,073

So it looks like Microsoft was off by about two million consoles. It also means they only have 20% of the market in terms of new sales of consoles. This is really not good considering they dropped support for the Xbox and had a full year head start on their competition.

In fact if you add in DS and PSP sales (29.2m and 13.1m respectively), then Microsoft only has a 10% market share of new sales in the console hardware market.

It also shows that while the PS3 sales pace has been steadily increasing since it launched, and Wii sales are still through the roof, the 360 sales pace has slowed down... and it isn't even three years old yet.

It is fairly clear that it was both a critical and strategic move on Microsoft's part to release the 360 well ahead of the PS3 and the Wii and to drop support for the Xbox in order to quickly build up a library of games and support from gamers.

While that strategy certainly appeared to be paying off, at least in terms of having a head start on the competition, the numbers look more and more bleak in terms of market share and longevity for the 360.

Microsoft has often cited the importance of being the first current gen console released, and the first to sell 10 million units, and based that on why the PS2 succeeded while the Xbox failed. Yet despite all that, and despite all the negative hype about supposed lack luster PS3 sales, when you compare the sales rates of the 360 and PS3 to the PS2, it's the PS3 that is tracking most closely to the PS2 sales rates, not the 360:

ConsoleSales2008071386WPS3-PS2-360L.jpg



Making matters worse, is when you compare the 360 sales pace to both the PS2 and the original Xbox:

ConsoleSales20080713400WPS2-XB-360L.jpg



Although the 360 has obviously done better than the Xbox, unfortunately for Microsoft, the 360 sales pace is tracking much closer to the Xbox than the PS2... and we all know what happened to the Xbox... and that was without having a massively successful console from Nintendo sharing the market place with.

If things don't turn around quickly, I suspect either we will see an entirely new console from Microsoft in the next couple years, or the 360 and it's variations will be the last hoorah for Microsoft in it's failed attempts in the console hardware market.
 
Its been out a while, but certainly I've noticed the slow-down that they've had recently in terms of titles that are driving console sales. We'll see what happens in the fall, but with the shrinking economic conditions that we're all feeling, my guess is that sales aren't going to look good for anyone.

...Then again, we'll see what the new features/games, plus the price drop, and bigger hard drive bring for the 360...

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Side note:

Why does it always seem like you're attempting to discredit the 360?
 

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