Forza 4 vs. GT5 (car classes).

  • Thread starter Com Fox
  • 61 comments
  • 4,261 views

Which do you prefer?

  • Forza 4.

    Votes: 34 58.6%

  • GT5 before spec 2.10.

    Votes: 4 6.9%

  • GT5 after spec 2.10.

    Votes: 15 25.9%

  • All.

    Votes: 5 8.6%
  • Total voters
    58
Both systems has its positives and negatives, but I would also say how Forza PP-upgrade system is better because it takes all upgrades as part of the PP-calculation (positive or negative).

However, I do not like "classes" restriction (F, E, D, C, A...), that one factor is really not necessary IMO, but it is purely subjective opinion.

However, same as in GT5, there is no real "matching" in performance with different cars with same PP even in Forza. Because there can't be one. There will always be "rabbit cars" and such.
 
As long as it stays on the specific topic and keeps to the AUP I have no issue with it.

Oh and for me Forza for one simple reason - Tyres
 
I like how forza separates the performance classes F to R1 I find it easier to setup a car with this system.
 
I like how Forza calculates weight differences for upgrades.

Although I admit I haven't run GT in awhile. Has it improved a lot since the latest update? I've read in here of people experiencing issues since the latest patch.
 
PI and PP are basically the same thing. The classes in Forza are just every 100 PI (with some exceptions).

One thing I don't like about Forza is the heavy PI penalty against AWD. This seems to stem from their great off the line capability. I guess it makes sense for the really short online races that are in normal Forza lobbies, but the launch becomes less and less important in a longer range and I don't think it should factor into a car's rating.
 
Exorcet
PI and PP are basically the same thing. The classes in Forza are just every 100 PI (with some exceptions).

One thing I don't like about Forza is the heavy PI penalty against AWD. This seems to stem from their great off the line capability. I guess it makes sense for the really short online races that are in normal Forza lobbies, but the launch becomes less and less important in a longer range and I don't think it should factor into a car's rating.
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4wd are penalized. So do they get increased points ?
 
jflomario
4wd are penalized. So do they get increased points ?
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Yes, most of the AWD cars I've seen have very high PI, much higher than they would have for the same power and weight with RWD or FWD. AWD conversions also bump up the PI a lot even when it comes with a large weight and balance penalty.

One example is my 700 PI SRT-4, I made it AWD and raced in the S Class World championship. The only advantage I had over the other cars was launch. The other cars accelerated significantly faster than I could and I didn't notice much of a cornering advantage in my car. The same thing happened with the Peugeot RCZ in A class. Conversely, when I modify a RWD car, it's usually competitive.
 
I don't really like Forza's class system, but PD has done it too. It's ok (and realistic), but I like just seeing the HP/weight, etc. I like the PP system too. I voted all, because I don't hate the systems, just one way is better than the other.
 
I would place Forza's system above Gran Turismo if it wasn't for one thing.

The tires.

Tires do NOT take a car out of it's class.
 
Exorcet
PI and PP are basically the same thing. The classes in Forza are just every 100 PI (with some exceptions).

One thing I don't like about Forza is the heavy PI penalty against AWD. This seems to stem from their great off the line capability. I guess it makes sense for the really short online races that are in normal Forza lobbies, but the launch becomes less and less important in a longer range and I don't think it should factor into a car's rating.
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The AWD seems to be a reaction to the rather big advantage they had back in FM3, in which AWD weren't given enough of a PI penalty and would walk away from everything else.

Its now biased a little too much the other way.



maxpontiac
I would place Forza's system above Gran Turismo if it wasn't for one thing.

The tires.

Tires do NOT take a car out of it's class.
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Why not? Tyres are a performance upgrade (or downgrade depending on which way you go) so I don't see any logic in not including them. Now if you want to force every driver to take the same grade of tyre then its not an issue, however if you have two drivers who want to run different tyre compounds and/or (and this bit is Forza specific) they have altered the tyre width, etc, the you have to take them into account.

In having tyres in the PI system you allow cars running different compounds and widths to be balanced on a roughly equal footing.
 
Scaff
As long as it stays on the specific topic and keeps to the AUP I have no issue with it.

Oh and for me Forza for one simple reason - Tyres
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I imagine Scaff means the fact tires are taking into account with the performance points, in which case, I'm a fan too. GT5 did this, for only one update, and it made it much easier to be able to match cars against others on different compounds.

Exorcet
Yes, most of the AWD cars I've seen have very high PI, much higher than they would have for the same power and weight with RWD or FWD. AWD conversions also bump up the PI a lot even when it comes with a large weight and balance penalty.

One example is my 700 PI SRT-4, I made it AWD and raced in the S Class World championship. The only advantage I had over the other cars was launch. The other cars accelerated significantly faster than I could and I didn't notice much of a cornering advantage in my car. The same thing happened with the Peugeot RCZ in A class. Conversely, when I modify a RWD car, it's usually competitive.
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It seems they've overcompensated for the AWD dominance in FM3, sadly.
 
I like Forza's system better because I think the class system makes it easier to organize cars when making setups than with the PP system.
 
Scaff
Why not? Tyres are a performance upgrade (or downgrade depending on which way you go) so I don't see any logic in not including them. Now if you want to force every driver to take the same grade of tyre then its not an issue, however if you have two drivers who want to run different tyre compounds and/or (and this bit is Forza specific) they have altered the tyre width, etc, the you have to take them into account.

In having tyres in the PI system you allow cars running different compounds and widths to be balanced on a roughly equal footing.
Click to expand...

Take a look at Kaz's recent race in the Ring 24HR event.

He specifically stated that they changed the compound on the car he was driving during the race.

His GTR didn't move up a class when it happened correct?
 
maxpontiac
Take a look at Kaz's recent race in the Ring 24HR event.

He specifically stated that they changed the compound on the car he was driving during the race.

His GTR didn't move up a class when it happened correct?
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I'm against tires in PP, but only because of GT5's tire model.

In real life, you switch between compounds to suite the condition of the track, and I agree, this shouldn't impact PP. However going from something like a normal road tire to DOT R compounds, or full fledged racing tires will surely have a large impact on performance no matter what conditions you're driving in.

In the future, both sims should feature dozens of tire compounds. These should be divided into classes by compound and tread pattern. All tires in a class would have the same PP value, you would get minor performance gains for using one over the other as track temperature changed. Moving from one class to another would change your PP.
 
Exorcet
I'm against tires in PP, but only because of GT5's tire model.

In real life, you switch between compounds to suite the condition of the track, and I agree, this shouldn't impact PP. However going from something like a normal road tire to DOT R compounds, or full fledged racing tires will surely have a large impact on performance no matter what conditions you're driving in.

In the future, both sims should feature dozens of tire compounds. These should be divided into classes by compound and tread pattern. All tires in a class would have the same PP value, you would get minor performance gains for using one over the other as track temperature changed. Moving from one class to another would change your PP.
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I get that. But, when playing Forza, it is unacceptable to me to see my GTO move up a class because I changed tire compounds. Sure I changed other parts and installed upgrades, but come on.

The real world race organizations understand this and it's why even with all the upgrades and modifications the cars have recieved tires don't matter when it comes to defining the racing class they are in.
 
Tyres to me should change a performance. Cars work better on racing soft but suck at comfort hard.
 
machschnel
Yeah, only the most important part on the whole car. I'm sure it has no bearing on lap time/performance whatsoever.....
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As I said before, real world racing organizations do NOT dictate the car class or placement of a car based on the compound of tires it uses.

I believe it is safe to say that is why GT5 doesn't include them. This is a logical conclusion when you consider that Kaz's experience in the 24HR 'Ring event.
 
maxpontiac
As I said before, real world racing organizations do NOT dictate the car class or placement of a car based on the compound of tires it uses.

I believe it is safe to say that is why GT5 doesn't include them. This is a logical conclusion when you consider that Kaz's experience in the 24HR 'Ring event.
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It's more likely that the reason is that real racing has different needs when it comes to rules.

In GT, you take existing cars and try to enter them into races. In real racing, you've often got teams making cars or buying cars that are built to a specific set of rules. The tire types allowed in the 24 hr event are probably limited, so basically any tires that would elevate the car's performance level substantially are banned.

Either that, or they're all using the best class of tire possible so that they can only downgrade, and they obviously won't downgrade.
 
maxpontiac
Take a look at Kaz's recent race in the Ring 24HR event.

He specifically stated that they changed the compound on the car he was driving during the race.

His GTR didn't move up a class when it happened correct?
Click to expand...
Quite true it didn't, but neither was the team (as it seems to get forgotten that he was one of four drivers in that car - share the love they all took the place) able to simply slap any compound on the car they wanted.

Its just as arguable that the PI/PP/Class for the car was calculated with the compound that offered the fastest lap times in place, and compounds that gave slower laptimes (but greater endurance) would have reduced the PI/PP.

At the end of the day not factoring in anything that changes the performance of the car (and almost nothing does to the same degree that tyres do) seems an odd exception, even in a system as arbitrary as the ones used in GT5/FM4.




maxpontiac
I get that. But, when playing Forza, it is unacceptable to me to see my GTO move up a class because I changed tire compounds. Sure I changed other parts and installed upgrades, but come on.
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Why? You've changed the performance of the car.



maxpontiac
The real world race organizations understand this and it's why even with all the upgrades and modifications the cars have recieved tires don't matter when it comes to defining the racing class they are in.
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Which might be a point if it was true (which its not - race bodies most certainly do control tyres based up the class being raced and the event) and the systems used by either title were even remotely close to how race bodies set the homolgation and regulations for events, but its not. Not even remotely close. If that were the case for each series of events you would controlled by a far more restrictive range of criteria that either offer (width, length, track, wheelbase, tyre width, tyre profile, compound - either single or a limited range, engine size, layout, CC, BHP, restrictor plate size, etc, etc, etc.).

The logic behind the PP/PI systems is simply to allow differing cars to compete on a roughly level playing field, and while it may 'feel' similar to real world race regulations, its in reality a very long way from it.


maxpontiac
As I said before, real world racing organizations do NOT dictate the car class or placement of a car based on the compound of tires it uses.

I believe it is safe to say that is why GT5 doesn't include them. This is a logical conclusion when you consider that Kaz's experience in the 24HR 'Ring event.
Click to expand...

Yes they do (and that's for just one of the UK racing bodies). You can't just turn up and slap what ever tyre you want on a car. In the real world they don't just move you up or down a class, the remove you from the race or penalize you.

FIA WTCC REgs
66. The FIA will register reference tyres for the Championship (dry- and wet-weather tyres). The Panel of Stewards will publish the list of control tyres selected by the FIA Technical Delegate during the first Event of the Championship.
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Source - http://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...C Sporting Regulations - amended 11012013.pdf

The rest of that section then goes into great detail about how the supply of these tyres is limited, controlled and managed. Pick any of the FIA regs from here http://www.fia.com/sport/regulations or got the ACO or VLN regs and you will see the exact same thing. The type of tyre permitted is strictly controlled by race bodies and most certainly does determine if you are eligible for a class.

A few examples:

the Caterham team paying 2,500 euros for using the incorrect tire during practice for the same race;
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Source - http://formula1.about.com/od/formula1101/a/F1-Teams-And-Drivers-Have-To-Pay-Traffic-Fines-Too.htm

The car was found to have illegal tires, and an over-sized engine. Petty was fined $35,000 but the victory was upheld
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Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petty_Enterprises

Williams has received a €5,000 (£4,384) fine for a breach of the tyre regulations in Friday practice,
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Source - http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/267601/williams-fined-for-breaking-tyre-rule/

And that's the tip of the iceberg.
 
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