Time to change the game-play!

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Simcoeace
What is the point of the increasing realism of GT5P with the superb graphics & much improved physics, when the game-play remains rooted in a completely arcade notion of "racing"?

Some of the "races" or "missions" are extremely difficult & some of them are easy, but almost none of them resemble real racing. By setting up so many races that involve passing 15 cars in one, two or three laps the GT series encourages a completely unrealistic approach to racing: tearing around the circuit over & over again (never on the racing line, because you're constantly overtaking cars), until you learn exactly what the turn-in & braking points are, & exactly where you have to pass each car in order to win (by definition doing this means your own cars & driving have to outperform the AI cars & drivers in a totally unrealistic way).

This resembles the game-play in many video games (like platformers) where success is a result of endless repetition & "learning the pattern". If PD introduced decent, aggressive AI, realistic collision physics, & damage, then it would be possible to have actual, spontaneous & (relatively) unpredictable racing, which would remove the necessity for the endless "license tests" & "missions" which provide a substitute challenge in place of real racing.
 
I have to agree with this. GT has been many things, and does many things well, but you have hit many of the flaws in one post. This was especially apparent in the GT4 Rabbit Syndrome - the field selection is such that you usually have one killer to chase down in a lap or two and 4 duds to get past (which is usually within the first 3 turns).

That's not at all what makes wheel-to-wheel club racing like Spec Miata or Spec E30 so great in real life. Let alone the higher levels of professional racing.

This game could be great... if they stop focusing on what is essentially fluff (excessive graphics) and continue to ignore the essentials (great racing competition, both AI and online). I sincerely hope it happens in the final version.
 
What is the point of the increasing realism of GT5P with the superb graphics & much improved physics, when the game-play remains rooted in a completely arcade notion of "racing"?

Ok, so that suggests you would know what real racing is like, but, oh no:

(never on the racing line, because you're constantly overtaking cars)

In "real" racing, you're hardly going to pass through the cars, are you? Or how do you propose you stay on a racing line with cars in the way?

Anyway, I agree that the races shouldn't be so fixed and predictabe, but then like the popular saying goes, this is Prologue.....I think it's a substitute AI while they get the proper AI working like they want, either that or they are testing out new methods of AI.
 
I agree with the OP. I hope to see improved AI performance and damage (talkin' structural damage not cosmetic damage).

I'm new to GT5P and the GT-series, but I was hoping for very good AI pilots so I could set up my own races (I love racing the close, tight racing with smaller,less powerful cars). However, from my very limited exposure to GT5P it seems that when I crank up the AI skill level the game gives them cars many times more powerful than mine! And when I crank the skill level down so the AI pilots have similar cars to mine they act very timid and slow.
 
pretty sure it isn't an arcade game

In "Professional" mode the physics are not arcade, but the game-play still is.

In "real" racing, you're hardly going to pass through the cars, are you? Or how do you propose you stay on a racing line with cars in the way?

In real racing you need to follow the racing line in order to get around the track fast & stay in touch with the other (equally fast) drivers, looking for an opening or mistake by the driver in front, so that you can make the pass. In the GT series the other cars are generally much slower than you, the difficulty comes from being forced to overtake so many cars in such a short time. It's a very "arcade" formula, identical to the way the first racing game I played (PGR2 - a good game in its own right) worked.

I know there's a whole generation of kids that have grown up with the GT series & are used to this arcade formula, but given how far PD have taken the other aspects of the GT series, isn't it time the game-play evolved to something more realistic & challenging?
 
In "Professional" mode the physics are not arcade, but the game-play still is.



In real racing you need to follow the racing line in order to get around the track fast & stay in touch with the other (equally fast) drivers, looking for an opening or mistake by the driver in front, so that you can make the pass. In the GT series the other cars are generally much slower than you, the difficulty comes from being forced to overtake so many cars in such a short time. It's a very "arcade" formula, identical to the way the first racing game I played (PGR2 - a good game in its own right) worked.

I know there's a whole generation of kids that have grown up with the GT series & are used to this arcade formula, but given how far PD have taken the other aspects of the GT series, isn't it time the game-play evolved to something more realistic & challenging?


Did you play GT4 Endurance races? If you choose a car that is similar to other GT cars, lets say DTM, the AI uses the Racing line, and you will have to as well, It took long time to make good win. But GT4 only used 6 cars at same race so It was not that much Interesting, GT5 will have 16 for most endurance racing wtih better AI, so should be interesting. So don't complain about a Prologue ;) wait for FULL GT5 game and Endurance racing 👍
 
I 100% agree that GT5P is following the same tired formula of its past games. If it wasn't for the amazing physics and time trials the game would be useless. Online is a horrible joke gone wrong, single player racing is not even close to fun either. I remember playing FM2 and having to actually take the A.I. down from hard to medium to get through a couple races where they knew the track better than I. I do hope that I also will get to do that in the full GT, especially if the A.I. still sucks and PD doesnt realize that racing is not passing fifteen other cars in 3 laps.
 
Did you play GT4 Endurance races? If you choose a car that is similar to other GT cars, lets say DTM, the AI uses the Racing line, and you will have to as well, It took long time to make good win. But GT4 only used 6 cars at same race so It was not that much Interesting, GT5 will have 16 for most endurance racing wtih better AI, so should be interesting. So don't complain about a Prologue wait for FULL GT5 game and Endurance racing

I spent most of my time in GT4 running multiple lap races on the Nurburgring or Le Sarthe tracks in Arcade, because their length & complexity made for more interesting & varied races, & I could set the AI at an appropraite level to make the races challenging. A lot of the races in Gran Turismo mode were just deadly dull.

I don't see having 16 cars instead of 6 being such a great advantage (although of course, it does provide you with more cars to overtake ;)), unless the AI is also improved (admittedly, it is already somewhat better in GT5P than in GT4).

I have to agree with this. GT has been many things, and does many things well, but you have hit many of the flaws in one post. This was especially apparent in the GT4 Rabbit Syndrome - the field selection is such that you usually have one killer to chase down in a lap or two and 4 duds to get past (which is usually within the first 3 turns).

That's not at all what makes wheel-to-wheel club racing like Spec Miata or Spec E30 so great in real life. Let alone the higher levels of professional racing.

This game could be great... if they stop focusing on what is essentially fluff (excessive graphics) and continue to ignore the essentials (great racing competition, both AI and online). I sincerely hope it happens in the final version.

I agree with you...agreeing with me!
 
I think you are spot on, and maybe this is why I'm finding online play (when it's good) more interesting than running the missions over and over to gain money.

I will say that real racing can involve a lot of time driving off-line, but not in the sense of GT5P where you are trying to overtake everyone in one lap. Maybe PD wanted us to enjoy the full field of competitors, but they should give us a few laps so we can practice proper set-up and passing, not memorize where to pass each AI car to achieve the goal. ALMS races have lots of traffic, especially early in the race or after a red flag, but there is time to make your way around slower cars.

This is one area that has not improved over the years, and it is part of what gives the game that "sterile" feel. I wonder if the game could benefit from some type of career mode, like an F1 or Nascar game, where you could progress from level to level in longer races to work towards the championship. GT4 attempted this somewhat with the championship series but the feel just wasn't the same, at least for me.

That being said, it is just a Prologue, but I would have appreciated one race series that was a bit longer and more involving.
 
Absolutely in agreement.

When I first entered a race, and I had to overtake X amount of cars, in X amount of laps, I was like "fun diversion". However, after the 5th race, I was wondering who dropped the ball.



;)
 
totally agree GT needs a proper AI not just faster cars than me. Longer races and for the love of god bring back qualifying. some one mentioned the Rabbit thing in GT4 thats also something I really hope doesn't resurface in the final game especially if the championship races come back. Those races might as well have been individual ones where you had to finish first. If you didn't Mr. X surely would.
 
I totally agree and I hope that when we see GT5 and the endurance races in it we can see a more competitive racing, one where you actually have to drive properly, because lets be honest and how many people just bump the AI cars to complete an event, these are the same people that you see bumping into everyone in the online races.
 
Private Rooms + Damage = Better Online Play. Currently online is a cesspool of NFS drivers who just finally beat pro street and think they have game, ahahaha. But I can't disagree with what was said before about the cars being very realistic but in unrealistic environments. That F40 took my like 90 minutes to get 'just right' :/ Graphics are great as they are now don't tinker with them (except make LOADS of colors for each car imo). Concentrate on better AI and online experience (including qualy's b4 each race to put the wallriders and duds in the back), dare I say see how Sim Bin does it 💡

Jerome
 
I agree slightly with the original post, though maybe changing the AI significantly is too much to hope for. Much better would be having the AI races just a section of the game in order to unlock cars, tracks etc, and then making the online racing the focus of the game as far as genuine competition is concerned.

Of course, this is only really possible once private rooms are introduced so that you can guarantee genuine competition instead of destruction derby racers.

I do think that once GTA:IV is out we should lose a proportion of the bad racers from GT, and once we have an online Need For Speed we might lose the rest!

As for gameplay improvements for online races, disabling the host from quitting the race would be a good move, or a function that enables a 'reserve host' that the race can move to should the original one throw their toys out of the pram and quit.
 
just posted this in another thread:

My hopes are that prologue is more like a "driving missions" game where you have to do totally unrealistic stuff like passing all cars in one lap (not to mention the drafting effect is a bit overdone) or even moving up from last place to first or third in 3 or 5 laps and all this will change with the qualifying option in GT5. Then of course the AI has to drive better though so you can have some nice position battles and the player is not given a magical super human Michael Schumacher on steroids ability to fly through a field of cars and eventually pass everybody. That is very sad.
 
Anyway, I agree that the races shouldn't be so fixed and predictabe, but then like the popular saying goes, this is Prologue.....I think it's a substitute AI while they get the proper AI working like they want, either that or they are testing out new methods of AI.

This may be Prologue, but it is also Gran Turismo! With all due respect to PD, they have had 10 years (and three generations) to nail the AI, and its still the same as it ever was! GT5 will be a blinder, I have no doubt in my mind about that, but as the biggest element of the game is going to be online, I feel that there is even less impetus for them to code in good AI. 👍
 
The gameplay isn't flawless, that's for sure. But no matter what kind of races there are people will complain. I'll take a few examples.

1) Three laps, 15 cars, slow AI, starting at the last place. The conclusion: too many cars to overtake in an overly short time and an easy victory. Not good.

2) Three laps, 15 cars, fast AI, starting at the last place. The conclusion: impossible to win. Not good.

3) Three laps, 15 cars, slow AI, starting at the first place. The conclusion: boring as hell and a guaranteed victory. Not good.

4) Three laps, 15 cars, fast AI, starting at the first place. The conclusion: might work, but very few cars to actually race with so only partially good.

5) All the previous options but with ten laps each. The conclusion: too long races, boring. Not good.

The overall conclusion: everyone can't be pleased. Nothing works really well. Go figure what they should do with the game, probably n+1 different copies for everyone.
 
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that feels this way.

Yes, a good online set up would side-step the issue, but there are gamers who don't have the option to play online.

Structuring the game so that you have to play artificial, boring races in order to unlock cars & tracks (license tests anyone?) so that you can go on to do more interesting stuff, begs the question: why not have realistic, interesting races in order to unlock cars & tracks, right from the start?

I honestly think that the reason PD had this game structure in previous GT games, was in order to give the game a traditional "game" structure & to make it a "big" game that would take a long time to "beat". With good AI, collision physics & damage, you don't need all that filler: it's OK to just have realistic, competitive racing.

I don't want to bring up the dreaded "F" word, so I will use another Sony product as an example: the game-play in F1:CE is absolutely brilliant IMO. There are 18 tracks, 22 cars & every race is exciting, unpredictable & challenging. Admittedly, the challenge comes partly from the fact that in F1:CE (as IRL F1 racing) you move around the track so damn fast. But what impresses me about the game is that the physics, AI, collision physics & damage are all relatively simple, but completely effective in creating a realistic feeling racing experience.

Add to that a long-term career mode that invites you to play through without restarting ! , dealing with the constant threat of terminal damage, & you've got a really immersive, white-knuckle racing experience that is IMO way more exciting than the "replay-over-&-over-again-'till-you-get-it-perfect" game-play of GT 1 - 5P.

I'm not saying that GT5 should be structured like F1:CE - it's obviously a very different kind of game - but I do think it's time for PD to rethink the basic "video game" structure with something more realistic: perhaps some sort of career mode. It could be GREAT! 👍
 
*snip* Structuring the game so that you have to play artificial, boring races in order to unlock cars & tracks (license tests anyone?) so that you can go on to do more interesting stuff, begs the question: why not have realistic, interesting races in order to unlock cars & tracks, right from the start?
Or like I've mentioned many times, implement an option (for peopel like me) that it makes it possible to start racing, practicing, with all the tracks and all the cars available, like in GTR!

It is then still possible to do the events and missions (which I truely hate), if one should like to do them.


:)
 
I don't have prologue, and don't plan on getting it unless it does eventually become GT5. I loved GT4's setup, besides the actual races, and I really hope that most of it stays the same. I loved the Missions, the Endurance Races, etc. I just hope it keeps the same basic formula, because I'd rather not do most of the game online. I'd also really hate DLC that cost money. I like knowing that I have the same cars available in the game as everyone else, and if I ever want to find data for all the cars or what have you, I like knowing I can. I really hope they release GT5 with all the cars and tracks (but a lot of them), and save anything else for the next game.
 
Hi everybody,
I'm new on here so hello first.
I'm really intrigued by this post and peoples thoughts on GT as i have been an avid follower since the first installation of this fine simulator, but for my pennysworth i feel the best racing i have ever had was linking up the 'ol ps2's for some of the closest and most addreniling pumping race's ever that was kinda what i was expecting with the online experience, maybe i'm asking too much:) but i hope in GT5 this is addressed with the ability of forums and locked races, i know this has deviated but i could'nt help reminesing (however you spell it) about such a great way to play GT and that is the exact kinnda racing that i'm looking for.
Dave
 
OK,
First of all there are still no games that can hold a candle to GT1-5p. I sold my PS2 and FM was not ok with me, this is why I have a PS3. GT is the only reason I got a PS3.

AI --- I do agree the AI could be better. I was racing last night and the car moved out of my way when I went to pass on the stright away. So I quit the events and went back to playing online.

with that said..... no game even comes close to GT, even if we could make it better.... no one has even challenged them.
 
The gameplay isn't flawless, that's for sure. But no matter what kind of races there are people will complain. I'll take a few examples.

1) Three laps, 15 cars, slow AI, starting at the last place. The conclusion: too many cars to overtake in an overly short time and an easy victory. Not good.

2) Three laps, 15 cars, fast AI, starting at the last place. The conclusion: impossible to win. Not good.

3) Three laps, 15 cars, slow AI, starting at the first place. The conclusion: boring as hell and a guaranteed victory. Not good.

4) Three laps, 15 cars, fast AI, starting at the first place. The conclusion: might work, but very few cars to actually race with so only partially good.

5) All the previous options but with ten laps each. The conclusion: too long races, boring. Not good.

The overall conclusion: everyone can't be pleased. Nothing works really well. Go figure what they should do with the game, probably n+1 different copies for everyone.

You know, you are making a very valid point. Maybe I've been sucked into the online so much I have not given the offline enough of a workout, and I should have given it more than just an once-over before making my comment.
 
I wish other racing games would come out with Prologues so you people could over critique the crap out of them. This is a work in progress. There's a ton of stuff that's not in it that I'd like too. But, I don't expect the full version of GT5 to be just like GT5P. Not to mention that this is the first GT on the new PS3. I'm sure Polyphony has run into plenty to deal with, and will continue to do so until GT5 is ready.
 
Personally I am not a fan of the driving missions, such as overtaking an entire field in 3-5 laps. They can be incredibly frustrating on Professional and mind numbingly easy on Standard. But on the other hand, I realise the full GT5 will probably not be focused on these type of events though maybe they will appear in GT5's arcade mode.

If time trial events are in the full GT5, I hope PD remove the need to slipstream the other cars, as to me it kind of defeats the purpose of racing the clock. It makes sense in qualifying, for you to try and get a toe along the straights but in a pure time trial it's plain annoying, especially when the car you have to go around is too slow to slipstream.
 
I've just started playing in-depth. We've used GT5p on simulator rigs (in fact, the racing school still has my darn steering wheel... :lol: ), but it's just last night that I started playing it at home, on the controller.

For starters... the physics engine, even on arcade (haven't got pro unlocked) is so much better than GT4, it's not funny. I'm playing through it just to get a feel for the cars.

Second, the missions? Typical. Stupid. But not any dumber than the 1,000,000 missions you had to drive in GT4, that were also typical, stupid and boring. Fun just for the hell of it, though, and it's probably silly to nitpick them, considering GT5p is nothing more than a glorified tech demo for GT5. Basically, it's a beta test where the beta-testers are actually dumb enough to buy into the beta test... :lol: ...call me dumb... I've got three or four different GT-concept titles from my pre-GT4 days... :lol: ...The "overtake everyone in x laps" deal is a way for PD to showcase their new graphics engine and large fields of cars... simply that, and nothing more. In one race, I was watching the carnage coming out of one corner as AI cars piled into each other and imagining that with full damage modelling... mhmmmm...

One thing, though... the gripes about the gameplay and events in previous GTs? Completely valid... I don't want to have to put up with twenty hours of license tests when GT5 comes out next year. I want a skippable tutorial, enough money to get a simple banger, and a variety of race events tailored to cater to every single car in GT. I don't CARE about events. I just want to race. It's fun to get 200-400 cars, but if there are absolutely no races where your Suzuki Cappuchino would be competitive as stock, why bother driving it? That's the major downfall of the GT experience... the lack of extensive cup races and spec races and poorly balanced events.

AI? Well... I'm not getting my hopes up, but I hope that GT stops making the AI drive their cars at 80% all the time and allow some of them to drive at 95%... would give you a more realistic field spread that way. And fer gosh'sakes... give the AI drivers different waypointing for AWD and FWD cars... seeing them take the corner exactly the same way, whatever they drive, is just damn irritating.
 
I still am amused by people bagging out the in game AI and then complaining about the online human competition being so bad in the same post. :ouch:

I think that there are more posts about how bad the online racing is than the AI.

I agree with the original post that the racing format needs some rethinking.

The AI in GT5P is a lot more interactive than ealier games.
Run the same race more than once and you will notice the AI is interacting differently around you each time.
 
Run the same race more than once and you will notice the AI is interacting differently around you each time.

True. They definitely don't stick rigidly to a racing line as before. If you make a pass on them and their racing line intersects with yours, they no longer just crash into you as they have in previous games. And they now seem to go off the road from mistakes, rather than consistantly at the wrong place (examples in GT4, cars always braking too late hitting the barrier first right-hander at New York, many cars sliding into the gravel first turn at MSL road course, sliding wide on the long right hander at Fuji etc etc).

In GT4, I didn't find the missions boring in the slightest. I know that many of the events were purposely geared towards making you have to buy a particular and perhaps unusual car that you wouldn't have necessarily bought for it's performance (the pick-ups race comes to mind in GT4, though I have to say I thought they were great fun!) but GT is "the real driving simulator" and a large portion of the game is devoted to collecting cars, otherwise they wouldn't offer as many as they do.
 
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