Turbo Upgrade causes power LOSS?

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BKViper

BKViper

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bkviper
Has anyone else seen this happen before?
I decided to customize a VW Samba bus and then do a full upgrade and tune, just to see what kind of performance I could get out of it.
So I did the engine, intake, and exhaust upgrades and then moved on to the turbos upgrade.
That is when the following happened (not exact figures, but close):
Before any turbo - 160 bhp
Add Stage 1 turbo - 195 bhp
Add Stage 2 turbo - 205 bhp
Add Stage 3 turbo - 200 bhp

For some strange reason, it lost several horsepower when going from the 2nd to 3rd stage turbo kit. I have never seen this happen on any vehicle I have modified.
I will say that although I own a ton of cars, I keep 95% of them stock, so I've probably only done a full turbo upgrade on ~20 cars.

Has anyone else seen this happen?
Does anyone have an explanation as to why this would happen?

And just to share, here is my Monster Bus at present.
This thing now has decent acceleration, braking, and (most surprisingly) handling! It's a world away from the ones we had on the Top Gear challenge.

29yipw3.jpg
 
The turbo kits operate in different rev ranges rather than being listed simply from least to most powerful... I suspect that's the reason for the decreased max power output.
 
Well, the motor isn't built/doesn't have enough power/isn't big enough to spool it. I guess in theory you could say each of the upgrades is a different trim turbo.

We'll say a 60-1, 35r and 42r as stage 1, 2 and 3. In real life you take a 42r and throw it on a stock honda b16 it will never spool it but it will do fine with a 60-1.
 
The bus probably doesn't rev very high. So it cant get all the power out of the high range turbo- While the mid range rpm can.

I like mid range turbos on many of my cars.
 
Well, if the turbos are not progressive stages of upgrading, I wonder why you have to buy #1 before you can buy #2 and then buy #2 before you can buy #3?
If they are separate units, basically being a "turbo swap" to a whole different unit, then wouldn't it make sense that you could buy any of the 3, without having to buy either of the other 2?

Thanks for the info though guys. :cheers:
 
mani_23
The bus probably doesn't rev very high. So it cant get all the power out of the high range turbo- While the mid range rpm can.

I like mid range turbos on many of my cars.
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Ehh, The revs have nothing to do with it, that's just a name Polyphony gave the turbos so people with lesser knowledge of cars would differentiate them. My Kubelwagen makes 22HP and 3000rpm. Not a "high RPM car" so the Low or Mid Range turbo would be best as of the names. But it's not, the stage 3 high range one adds the most HP to the stock motor (10 more than the mid).

But, what I said earlier is most likely the reason. Forza 2 had 3 had this too. It's another realistic, misunderstood feature IMO.

EDIT: To your above post, you don't have to buy the turbos in stages, you can pick any of them. Only the engine upgrades you do.
 
BKViper
Well, if the turbos are not progressive stages of upgrading, I wonder why you have to buy #1 before you can buy #2 and then buy #2 before you can buy #3?
If they are separate units, basically being a "turbo swap" to a whole different unit, then wouldn't it make sense that you could buy any of the 3, without having to buy either of the other 2?

Thanks for the info though guys. :cheers:
Click to expand...

You can buy stage 3 turbo without 1 or 2. I do it all the time. That is only for engine upgrades and weight reductions.
 
BKViper
Well, if the turbos are not progressive stages of upgrading, I wonder why you have to buy #1 before you can buy #2 and then buy #2 before you can buy #3?
If they are separate units, basically being a "turbo swap" to a whole different unit, then wouldn't it make sense that you could buy any of the 3, without having to buy either of the other 2?

Thanks for the info though guys. :cheers:
Click to expand...

You dont have to buy all 3 turbos... Unless its only that way for that VW? Every car Ive had in the game, I've been able to go straight to the Stage 3 turbo.
 
BKViper
Well, if the turbos are not progressive stages of upgrading, I wonder why you have to buy #1 before you can buy #2 and then buy #2 before you can buy #3?
If they are separate units, basically being a "turbo swap" to a whole different unit, then wouldn't it make sense that you could buy any of the 3, without having to buy either of the other 2?

Thanks for the info though guys. :cheers:
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Uhhhh you can ? I can buy stage 3 without stage 1 just fine.
 
xNEVER-ONEx
You can buy stage 3 turbo without 1 or 2. I do it all the time. That is only for engine upgrades and weight reductions.
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hondaspeed85
You dont have to buy all 3 turbos... Unless its only that way for that VW? Every car Ive had in the game, I've been able to go straight to the Stage 3 turbo.
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sk0pe
Uhhhh you can ? I can buy stage 3 without stage 1 just fine.
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:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: 🤬 🤬 :mad: :dunce: :mad: 🤬 🤬 :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I need to start actually reading descriptions, instead of assuming how things work.
I figured since weight and engines worked that way, then turbos would obviously be the same; progressive and linear.

Oh well, at least I didn't spend a ton of money, as I said I don't upgrade most of my cars.

For the cars that you have bought all 3, can you activate any of the 3 for a given race?
Like a small tight track and I could run the low RPM turbo, but for a high speed track with long straights I could run the high RPM turbo?
 
BKViper
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: 🤬 🤬 :mad: :dunce: :mad: 🤬 🤬 :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I need to start actually reading descriptions, instead of assuming how things work.
I figured since weight and engines worked that way, then turbos would obviously be the same; progressive and linear.

Oh well, at least I didn't spend a ton of money, as I said I don't upgrade most of my cars.

For the cars that you have bought all 3, can you activate any of the 3 for a given race?
Like a small tight track and I could run the low RPM turbo, but for a high speed track with long straights I could run the high RPM turbo?
Click to expand...

yup, the turbos and superchargers can be taken off anytime you want. So if you have all 3, you can switch to any one of the 3 or even take it off all together.
 
Killer bus. Tempts me to try the same now. The TG event was loads of fun too.

That pic reminds me a lot of the VW bus with Porsche 911 running gear that ran in the Bullrun TV rally.

25967340001_medium.jpg



I like your wheel and tire package better though. Some sidewall looks good, imo. :)
 
DrkPhnyx
Killer bus. Tempts me to try the same now. The TG event was loads of fun too.

That pic reminds me a lot of the VW bus with Porsche 911 running gear that ran in the Bullrun TV rally.

25967340001_medium.jpg



I like your wheel and tire package better though. Some sidewall looks good, imo. :)
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That is the exact car that I modeled mine after with the color scheme and optional bumpers. But I preferred my wheel and tire combo.
I went with the old school tires that have the white lettering, wrapped around a classic set of Torque Thrust wheels. And then I painted the wheels with "Matte Red" paint. It was very close to the Red on the body and the Matte finish went quite well with the wheel design and tire combination.
Plus I slammed the suspension down for that low look.
 
Abscissa081
Ehh, The revs have nothing to do with it, that's just a name Polyphony gave the turbos so people with lesser knowledge of cars would differentiate them. My Kubelwagen makes 22HP and 3000rpm. Not a "high RPM car" so the Low or Mid Range turbo would be best as of the names. But it's not, the stage 3 high range one adds the most HP to the stock motor (10 more than the mid).

But, what I said earlier is most likely the reason. Forza 2 had 3 had this too. It's another realistic, misunderstood feature IMO.

EDIT: To your above post, you don't have to buy the turbos in stages, you can pick any of them. Only the engine upgrades you do.
Click to expand...

My bad, Stand corrected. I don't know much about turbos, So I thought the turbos would literally kick in-in either low rpms, mid rpms, or high rpms.

My bad
 
Well this is good news, these tiny engine/big turbo combos that I've been using with the Samba Bus/Kübelwagen/Schwimmwagen/500 results in massive, massive lag (shocking, I know), so being able to take at least the Bus to a mid range turbo should help with that. I never even check the Stage 1 or 2, I think I will with the other three.

Also, I'd just like to say that if there's a single person still ruing PD's decision to make any of those four cars a premium, they seriously need to buy then tune them. They are so much fun when fully tuned, I managed to get my 500 to lap Tsukuba only 3 seconds slower than a showroom fresh 430 Scuderia... I realise that 3 seconds on a 1 minute lap is a HUGE gap, but come on, it's got 86bhp!
 
In real life a turbo actually uses a huge amount of power from the engine just to operate.
For example, an engine running 200hp (let's say) may be boosted by 60hp with a turbo. The turbo is using maybe 40% of the engines original power to achieve this boost. Maybe PD have modeled some of the turbos to act in a RL kind of manor. Just a thought.
(Example was theoretical, not based on any actual car/engine.)
 
shem
In real life a turbo actually uses a huge amount of power from the engine just to operate.
For example, an engine running 200hp (let's say) may be boosted by 60hp with a turbo. The turbo is using maybe 40% of the engines original power to achieve this boost. Maybe PD have modeled some of the turbos to act in a RL kind of manor. Just a thought.
(Example was theoretical, not based on any actual car/engine.)
Click to expand...

I always thought the point of a turbo was to not use any power the engine creates, which is why they're preferred over a supercharger?

I can't claim to know exactly how turbos work, but I do know a bit... I always figured the reason a small engine won't work with a huge turbo is that they can't create enough pressure in the exhaust manifold to get the turbo to spool up. To make things worse, a bigger turbo, which will create more pressure in the inlet manifold, needs a much lower compression ratio in the engine to make sure it won't pop when the boost comes, so a small, low compression engine will be pretty much dead off-boost, and with a large turbo you'd have a lot of lag (try a stage 3 turbo on the Schwimmwagen and accelerate from standing, it takes a while to get going), so you basically get nowhere.

Now, a small turbo on a small engine requires a less reduced compression ratio, combined with a lower pressure requirement to get spooled. Of course, a lot of methods exist to improve this problem (including the types of bearings used, the material the turbine blades are made from, the shape of the blades (look up Variable Geometry Turbos, for example)) but I'm not sure if any are modelled in GT5; I for one was expecting them to include an anti-lag system upgrade option which allows you to delay the ignition in the engine so the spark comes just as the exhaust valve opens, thus sending the rapidly expanding gases through the turbo and spooling it instantly, like a WRC car.

This is why Subaru started using a 2.5 litre engine in their Imprezas, it gave them better off-boost drivability because of the increased torque, and I guess this is why the Samba Bus has such huge lag (if it's anything like the Schwimmwagen, which is it, having a very small, low output engine (aren't they the same engine, even?)) and produces less power.

Having said that, that would imply that the same is true for any car with a small engine, and I don't think it is, so I'm probably wrong, but my guess would be that the Bus, for whatever reason, can't fully spool the turbo (as has been said), or it's a glitch.
 
A SC and a turbo will both consume power because of the laws of physics. A turbo runs of exhaust gas compressed by the piston, to compress this gas the engine must be put under more strain than it would under normal exhaust motions, so the turbo is effectively draining some of the engines power. A super charger runs on a belt drive usually, also taking power from the engine to turn charger and force more air into the engine.
To my knowledge this is pretty much a simplified (accurate) version of how these work.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
A supercharger takes more power to operate than a turbo. It's also harder to get as much boost out of one as you can from a turbo. These 2 reasons are why turbos are preferred.

Both do rob power, but the turbo robs FAR less of it.

Superchargers have certain inherent advantages [lower specific fuel consumption, more linear power band, easier to install and tune, just to name a few], but, when it comes to raw power output, and both types are allowed/available, tubos will always be chosen.
 
DrkPhnyx
A supercharger takes more power to operate than a turbo. It's also harder to get as much boost out of one as you can from a turbo. These 2 reasons are why turbos are preferred.

Both do rob power, but the turbo robs FAR less of it.

Superchargers have certain inherent advantages [lower specific fuel consumption, more linear power band, easier to install and tune, just to name a few], but, when it comes to raw power output, and both types are allowed/available, tubos will always be chosen.
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I'm not very knowledgeable in this area, but in the game, the super always gives a higher out put than the high RPM turbo. I have yet to find a case that isn;t so.
 
xNEVER-ONEx
I'm not very knowledgeable in this area, but in the game, the super always gives a higher out put than the high RPM turbo. I have yet to find a case that isn;t so.
Click to expand...

Mazda RX-8. Stage 3 Turbo owns the Supercharger in power gains for this car.
 
A turbo will experience lag due to the time taken for the build up of pressure.
A supercharger runs directly from the drive (Cam or crankshaft I think) therefore having instant response from the turning over of the engine.
A supercharger being a connected part of the mechanical system will need more power to operate as opposed to a turbo which utilizes exhaust/waste gases for movement/operation, and therefore not being directly powered by the engine.
 
shem
In real life a turbo actually uses a huge amount of power from the engine just to operate.
For example, an engine running 200hp (let's say) may be boosted by 60hp with a turbo. The turbo is using maybe 40% of the engines original power to achieve this boost. Maybe PD have modeled some of the turbos to act in a RL kind of manor. Just a thought.
(Example was theoretical, not based on any actual car/engine.)
Click to expand...

Where did you hear that rubbish? Turbo's work via the exhaust stream flowing from the engine. The faster the engine runs, the faster the exhaust stream is coming out, the faster the turbo will spool up. There's basically 2 halves to a turbocharger, the turbine, which is in the exhaust side, and the compressor, which is in the engine intake air side. It's a free boost for all practical purposes. The downside is the restriction in the exhaust created by installing the turbo, but the hp gain far outweighs the loss. Now a supercharger on the other hand will first rob an engine of power in order to make more power, which can be much more than that of a turbo, depending on the rotor size. Superchargers are driven by a belt connected to the crankshaft. Thus, as the engine turns over, the belt needs to drive the SC as well as any accessories attached to the motor, such as the alternator, power steering pump, water pump and so on. All of these accessories rob the engine of power. In the case of the SC, the net hp gain is even more of a bonus than that of a turbo, with the added bonus of no turbo lag. I could go on but you get the point.
 
shem
A SC and a turbo will both consume power because of the laws of physics. A turbo runs of exhaust gas compressed by the piston, to compress this gas the engine must be put under more strain than it would under normal exhaust motions, so the turbo is effectively draining some of the engines power. A super charger runs on a belt drive usually, also taking power from the engine to turn charger and force more air into the engine.
To my knowledge this is pretty much a simplified (accurate) version of how these work.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

No, you're thinking of it the wrong way. As the engine runs, it is already creating the exhaust flow right? Forget the turbo for the moment, and just visualize the engine running as normal. Air in, exhaust out ok. Intake, compression, ignition, exhaust. 4 stroke. Now, add in the turbo to the exhaust stream, and allow it to spin a fan. Yes, there's an added restriction to the exhaust flow, but at the moment it's irrelevant. Now the exhaust is causing this fan to spin, so let's attach a shaft to it and on the other side attach a compressor and mount it in the incoming fresh air stream going to the intake. The compressed air is now under pressure(boost) as it enters the engine, rather than at atmospheric pressure which is what a naturally aspirated engine is. The engine is now not working harder, but is allowed to create greater horsepower because of the denser air charge entering the cylinders. With this air comes more fuel. More air + more fuel + spark = bigger bang = greater hp. The engine isn't really being put under more strain, it is being allowed to perform at a higher rate of efficiency due to the addition of the turbo.
Yes, the added hp boost is harsher on all of the reciprocating parts of an engine than on a nat. asp. engine, which is why there are many differences to each. This part is no different on a SC engine.
Btw, I'm getting my info from 3 yrs. of college for auto diagnostics + 20 yrs in the field of auto repair.
 
BKViper
And just to share, here is my Monster Bus at present.
This thing now has decent acceleration, braking, and (most surprisingly) handling! It's a world away from the ones we had on the Top Gear challenge.

29yipw3.jpg
Click to expand...

That is one mean hippie bus 👍
 
turbolefty78
No, you're thinking of it the wrong way. As the engine runs, it is already creating the exhaust flow right? Forget the turbo for the moment, and just visualize the engine running as normal. Air in, exhaust out ok. Intake, compression, ignition, exhaust. 4 stroke. Now, add in the turbo to the exhaust stream, and allow it to spin a fan. Yes, there's an added restriction to the exhaust flow, but at the moment it's irrelevant. Now the exhaust is causing this fan to spin, so let's attach a shaft to it and on the other side attach a compressor and mount it in the incoming fresh air stream going to the intake. The compressed air is now under pressure(boost) as it enters the engine, rather than at atmospheric pressure which is what a naturally aspirated engine is. The engine is now not working harder, but is allowed to create greater horsepower because of the denser air charge entering the cylinders. With this air comes more fuel. More air + more fuel + spark = bigger bang = greater hp. The engine isn't really being put under more strain, it is being allowed to perform at a higher rate of efficiency due to the addition of the turbo.
Yes, the added hp boost is harsher on all of the reciprocating parts of an engine than on a nat. asp. engine, which is why there are many differences to each. This part is no different on a SC engine.
Btw, I'm getting my info from 3 yrs. of college for auto diagnostics + 20 yrs in the field of auto repair.
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This is fascinating, yet still incredibly confusing. Just when I thought I knew enough you guys throw me something new to look into.
 
No bloody way! Are you telling me I have wasted a mountain of money since GT1 on upgrading turbo's rather than just buying the stage 3? How the hell did I not know this? Or at least try at some point in the past 13 years to buy a stage 2 or 3 without stage 1.

FACE-EFFING-PALM!
 
KyleR
No bloody way! Are you telling me I have wasted a mountain of money since GT1 on upgrading turbo's rather than just buying the stage 3? How the hell did I not know this? Or at least try at some point in the past 13 years to buy a stage 2 or 3 without stage 1.

FACE-EFFING-PALM!
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depends
short tracks a mid turbo probably better for the acceleration
but i tried this on nords last night and the high rev turbo way better for me
 

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