Initial Torque: What do you do?

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oopssorryy

oopssorryy

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oops_sorryy
I have seen many threads all posting different theories as to what Initial Torque does to your car. As someone who is trying very hard to get serious into tuning on GT5, this is a problem. I need so solid information I can take away an apply to what I am doing.

So what I would like you other tuners out there is to post your theories on what Initial Torque does, and why, or/and, what makes you think that way. Please post in a direct, and simple manner, so that more people can understand what you are trying to say. Also I don't want to entertain Acceleration Sensitivity, and Braking Sensitivity, because most tuners are in agreement on what those two settings do.

This thread is meant to be the Argument to end all Arguments, so Initial Torque: What do you do?
 
Found this description on the net which I feel best explains how I think it works and how I implement it in my tunes...

Initial Torque-This is the amount torque necessary for the LSD to kick in. As
it's in-game description says it makes your car more stable by preventing
sudden changes in performance when the LSD is actived during Acceleration and
Deceleration.
Click to expand...

Source: http://www.gamershell.com/faqs/granturismo5cartuningguide/1.00/
 
oopssorryy
Thank you for the quick response! that guide looked great, I'll have to look deeper into it a little later.
Click to expand...

I cant gaurantee that it is all correct because I dont know the person who created it, but it seemed pretty comprehensive and Scaff from this website has some good tuning guides as well somewhere on this site.. I dont know where the link is at the moment though...
 
I already have Scaff's tuning guides, but thanks anyways. The problem is, most tuners have completely different ideas on what Initial Torque does, so even though I have read Scaff's section on LSD's I still have questions due to what other tuners have said.
 
oopssorryy
This thread is meant to be the Argument to end all Arguments
Click to expand...

Not going to happen. There's already a fevered debate going on in the "LSD- How to set it properly?" thread as well as a dozen other threads. I wish someone would just compile everone's theories into a chart and make a sticky out of it so we can lock all further LSD threads.
 
I have used the search button, and the number of arguments made by different tuners, across a good number of threads, made absorbing all the info and ideas harder than it needed to be . I want all the arguments and ideas in one place to better understand all the info being thrown at new tuners. I would gladly appreciate it if all 22 (roughly) tuning garages would would post what they think Initial Torque really does. I just tune it until it works, but in the end I have no idea what the IT has actually done. I would really like to see all the arguments in one place so I could look threw them all.
 
I'm not sure if this is the right way to do it so guys be easy on me if i'm wrong.

After i get my feel on the Acceleration(A) and deceleration(D) i'll set mine to be as close to (A) and (D) as possible.I usually find a number that will be somewhere in between (A) and (D).

Example :Acceleration is 18
Deceleration is 25

So by these numbers i'll make my Initial Torque 22.

If i'm thinking this right Acceleration and Deceleration is using Torque right?So i'll set the Initial Torque at 22 so it kicks in right in the middle of these numbers.

This might be the wrong way to go about it,but this is how i understand it.
 
Starfirebird
I'm not sure if this is the right way to do it so guys be easy on me if i'm wrong.

After i get my feel on the Acceleration(A) and deceleration(D) i'll set mine to be as close to (A) and (D) as possible.I usually find a number that will be somewhere in between (A) and (D).

Example :Acceleration is 18
Deceleration is 25

So by these numbers i'll make my Initial Torque 22.

If i'm thinking this right Acceleration and Deceleration is using Torque right?So i'll set the Initial Torque at 22 so it kicks in right in the middle of these numbers.

This might be the wrong way to go about it,but this is how i understand it.
Click to expand...

That's actually a very good way of doing it. In fact, I do this for my circuit tunes and have been since GT4 but I'm opposite to you in that I have my acceleration as the higher figure, not the deceleration.

To answer the question, the initial torque is how hard the power gets transferred through the driveline whenever you hit the throttle, it doesn't necessarily mean at launch.
 
thank you both for your thoughts and ideas on this issue, and the ease of understanding your explanations. now if only we could get LDP and some other big names to weigh in.
 
The 'stronger' the setting.. the less likely you're to experience unexpected changes in handling and performance.


To me... that sounds like, if I set my Initial Torque to 60.. I am less likely experience changes in Handling and Performance without warning.

  • Less likely changes 'without warning' occur.

So the weaker setting being 5... would mean a small amount of torque can activate the LSD. Changes in accel and decel are more probable.
 
itstheDRE4M
The 'stronger' the setting.. the less likely you're to experience unexpected changes in handling and performance.


To me... that sounds like, if I set my Initial Torque to 60.. I am less likely experience changes in Handling and Performance without warning.

  • Less likely changes 'without warning' occur.

So the weaker setting being 5... would mean a small amount of torque can activate the LSD. Changes in accel and decel are more probable.
Click to expand...

Hmmm well that is a good overview. I do think that your makes the most sense right now, but I still want to get all the other tuners comments to make a final decision on my part. Thank you for the post!
 
Honestly, initial torque is something I've confused myself on so many times it's not funny...

It may affect the torque required to shove the clutches together and cause partial lock, it may work only as a "transition" (as you go from deceleration to acceleration and vice-versa), or it may affect total lock.

The truth is, I've no idea any more. I've previously thought I knew what was going on and since have tested every possible theory... And I've not been happy with any of them. Because of this, I've started going entirely off of feel and course time results... This has resulted in fairly interesting differential settings for certain AWDs... Which seem to cause "understeer" on-throttle yet make the car faster out of corners.
 
The following images are from test I ran using the LSD.

Test 1: 5/5/5 --

  • Inside tire losses traction before the outside.
  • The inside tire does have less weight on it during turns.
  • Car is harder to spin out.
5437499708_85bd670939_z.jpg


Test 2: 60/60/60 --

  • Outside tire losses traction before the other.
  • The outside tire during a turn has more weight on it.. meaning the inside tire is more likely to spin.. rather than this one.
  • Car spins out easier

5436890637_a2226defc5_z.jpg


You can see in both images where I was staying on the throttle and where 5/5/5 just doesn't want to spin the outside wheel "where all the weight is during corner exit".

However...

60/60/60 spins the outside tire with ease.. but is more likely to lose control.






Test 3: 60/5/5

  • Outside tire loses traction first!
  • Car harder to control.
  • Both tires spin simultaneously, first the outside (more weight during transfer).. then the inside(less weight)
 
Rotary Junkie
Honestly, initial torque is something I've confused myself on so many times it's not funny...

It may affect the torque required to shove the clutches together and cause partial lock, it may work only as a "transition" (as you go from deceleration to acceleration and vice-versa), or it may affect total lock.

The truth is, I've no idea any more. I've previously thought I knew what was going on and since have tested every possible theory... And I've not been happy with any of them. Because of this, I've started going entirely off of feel and course time results... This has resulted in fairly interesting differential settings for certain AWDs... Which seem to cause "understeer" on-throttle yet make the car faster out of corners.
Click to expand...

So work on the Acceleration Sensitivity and the Braking Sensitivity until you've stopped getting wheel spin and and the Engine Brake Strength were you want it and then tune Initial Torque to what feels best? I do like that as it's a more analog then a bunch of formulas.

Edit: I'm sorry I forgot to thank you in the original post. So Thank you for sharing our methods of tunig with Initial Torque, every bit of info is usable, and helpful!
 
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itstheDRE4M
Test 1: 5/5/5...

Test 2: 60/60/60...

Test 3: 60/5/5....

[/LIST]
Click to expand...

Try getting a good set up with your cars Acceleration Sensitivity and Braking Sensitivity and then mess with your Initial Torque. Messing with all three settings will skew the results as were trying to figure out what Initial Torque does, and only what it does. Right now I'm in the same Boat as Rotary Junkie is in. I tune every other setting for performance and then tune Initial Torque for the feeling of the car. If we could figure out what exactly it did it would allow tuners to tune cars to a much higher degree.

Thank you for posting your ideas, but lets focus them a bit more.
 
oopssorryy
Try getting a good set up with your cars Acceleration Sensitivity and Braking Sensitivity and then mess with your Initial Torque. Messing with all three settings will skew the results as were trying to figure out what Initial Torque does, and only what it does. Right now I'm in the same Boat as Rotary Junkie is in. I tune every other setting for performance and then tune Initial Torque for the feeling of the car. If we could figure out what exactly it did it would allow tuners to tune cars to a much higher degree.

Thank you for posting your ideas, but lets focus them a bit more.
Click to expand...

Compare 5/5/5 to 60/5/5. Go now.

Try doing donouts. Go slow through a corner then try stomping it on corner exit.


My results of Initial Torque differences of being set at 5 and 60 are below:

Set at 5:
  • Tire with least amount of weight during transfer(inside) loses traction first.
  • Car is easier to control.

Set at 60:
  • The tire with the most weight during transfer loses traction first(outside).
  • Car is harder to keep under control.




Initial Torque is exactly what it says in game.

The higher the initial torque, the more responsive an LSD becomes. However, too much initial torque makes a vehicle extremely hard to turn and affects the vehicle's smoothness.
 
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Well that is certainly interesting, so it seems like the Initial Torque setting must be tuned in unison with Acceleration Sensitivity, as the Initial Torque can make the car more stable or looser, but at the cost of wheel spin. This added wheel spin, weather it be on the inside wheel, or the out side, can be tuned out with proper use of the Acceleration Sensitivity values.
The question is do a value of 60 produce oversteer or understeer in your eyes? And what about a value of 5.

This is exactly the kind of information we need here on this site. I'm still waiting for some of the other tuning garages to weigh in and post what they think. So far it seems as if we only have one working theory, and even though it's good, the other theories are needed to get a fuller understanding about this misunderstood LSD setting.
 
oopssorryy
Well that is certainly interesting, so it seems like the Initial Torque setting must be tuned in unison with Acceleration Sensitivity, as the Initial Torque can make the car more stable or looser, but at the cost of wheel spin. This added wheel spin, weather it be on the inside wheel, or the out side, can be tuned out with proper use of the Acceleration Sensitivity values.
The question is do a value of 60 produce oversteer or understeer in your eyes? And what about a value of 5.

This is exactly the kind of information we need here on this site. I'm still waiting for some of the other tuning garages to weigh in and post what they think. So far it seems as if we only have one working theory, and even though it's good, the other theories are needed to get a fuller understanding about this misunderstood LSD setting.
Click to expand...

Yes. A 5/5/5 the tire with the least amount of weight during turn-in loses traction. Also, the car is easier to control while attempting to do a burnout which would mean understeer*

60/5/5 power is sent to the other wheel because I noticed the outside tire loses traction during weight transfer. Now remember when you exit a corner this is where all the weight is and we don't want that tire to lose traction. Also, the car is harder to control while attempting a burnout which would mean oversteer.








TESTING on Mazda Roadster NA Spl. Pgk. 89'
246hp
202ft-lbs.
831kg.

5Laps Tsubuka Circuit.

Suspension: unchanged.
Brakes: 4/6
Click to expand...

LSD Settings - Initial changes only.

5/5/5 --->
  • Inside tire loses traction on turn (1) exit.
  • Inside tire loses traction on turn (8) exit.
  • Inside tire loses traction on turn (4) exit.
  • Unstable during braking, oversteer.

Average Lap: 1:02.716
Fastest Lap: 1:02.701


25/5/5 --->
  • No longer lose traction on the Inside tire during ANY turns.
  • Still unstable during braking, but not as drastic as before.

Average Lap: 1:02.150
Fastest Lap: 1:01.986


50/5/5 --->
  • Slight Oversteer, outside tire losing traction.
  • More control under braking.

Average Lap: 1:02.130
Fastest Lap: 1:01.944


60/5/5 --->
  • Slight oversteer mid corner, only when contact with rumble strips.
  • Slight Understeer under braking

Average Lap: 1:02.074
Fastest Lap: 1:01.853





Fastest lap while testing Initial came from using the strongest setting.
Click to expand...

It is obvious by increasing initial torque you are shifting the power on the axle. Starting at 5 you have the inside tire losing traction, but if you change it to 60. The outside tire is losing traction even though it's the tire with most weight under corner exit.
 
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i don,t actually now what it does precisly but i tune a car with very much grip im fastest with it set to 5. so i think it is just as many others already have said :)
 
I am of the opinion that it's referring to the amount of torque required to engage the clutch pack within the LSD, although ironically it would seem a higher number means less torque is required. Acceleration and deceleration values can not be a measure of engine torque, it's merely an arbitrary value associated with the amount of slip differential between the two wheels.

Regardless of its true meaning, the effects are fairly obvious.
 
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Well thank you Paulie, competizone, and itstheDRE4M. I sound like most of you are in agreement with what everybody else is saying, which is good. I think this is really going to help my tuning ability, and hopefully it helps somebody else as well.
 
itstheDRE4M
LSD Settings - Initial changes only.

5/5/5 --->
  • Inside tire loses traction on turn (1) exit.
  • Inside tire loses traction on turn (8) exit.
  • Inside tire loses traction on turn (4) exit.
  • Unstable during braking, oversteer.

Average Lap: 1:02.716
Fastest Lap: 1:02.701


25/5/5 --->
  • No longer lose traction on the Inside tire during ANY turns.
  • Still unstable during braking, but not as drastic as before.

Average Lap: 1:02.150
Fastest Lap: 1:01.986


50/5/5 --->
  • Slight Oversteer, outside tire losing traction.
  • More control under braking.

Average Lap: 1:02.130
Fastest Lap: 1:01.944


60/5/5 --->
  • Slight oversteer mid corner, only when contact with rumble strips.
  • Slight Understeer under braking

Average Lap: 1:02.074
Fastest Lap: 1:01.853

It is obvious by increasing initial torque you are shifting the power on the axle. Starting at 5 you have the inside tire losing traction, but if you change it to 60. The outside tire is losing traction even though it's the tire with most weight under corner exit.
Click to expand...

Would you mind running this test again with x/30/30? I would like to know if changing the initial will change the "sweet-spot" for accel or in case of this test if the sweet-spot for initial changes with the accel setting.

Thanks for all the testing and sharing done so far!
 
Z1-AV69
Would you mind running this test again with x/30/30? I would like to know if changing the initial will change the "sweet-spot" for accel or in case of this test if the sweet-spot for initial changes with the accel setting.

Thanks for all the testing and sharing done so far!
Click to expand...

Absolutely, I plan on testing Accel and Decel. Also, I plan on testing combination's of all three.

5/25/5 --->
  • Slight oversteer on full throttle; not much traction loss.
  • Unstable during braking

Average Lap: 1:01.975
Fastest Lap: 1:01.749
 
itstheDRE4M, it looks like you've put a fair bit of time into testing this, thanks for sharing your results.

itstheDRE4M
...because I noticed the outside tire loses traction during weight transfer
Click to expand...
Are you assuming loss of traction based on the tyre colour going red? If so, the red actually indicates that the tyre is overheating. This can be caused by cornering/braking/acceleration, so it's not necessarily wheelspin aka loss of traction. A clutch-pack LSD isn't ever capable of spinning the outside wheel, so the red in this case is probably due to cornering grip.

----

To answer the OPs question, here's how I used LSD initial
- increasing it resists the car yawing (makes the car harder to turn)
- high initial instead of high accel+decel (eg 30/10/10 vs 10/30/30) avoids quirky handling due to changes as throttle is applied/released
- often I use initial to reduce lift-off oversteer in MR and RR
- the real life equivalent is LSD pre-load, which is the torque difference between the wheels that is required to unlock the diff. Until cornering causes a greater torque difference than the pre-load value (in Nm or ft-lb), the diff is locked so the car is harder to turn. I highly doubt that the "LSD initial" value is in Nm or lb-ft, it is just an arbitary scale between no pre-load (0) and always locked (60)

Hopefully my explanation isn't too confusing, if you've got any questions I'm happy to try to explain better.
 

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