ride height::spring rates::bottoming out

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does body roll have any positive effect on cornering?

is tuning the spring rate a matter of the weight and weight distribution of the car?

and subsequently is lowering ride height a matter of the relationship between the new tuned spring rate and ride height limit before bottoming out?

and then adjusting ratio between front spring rate and rear spring rate to affect understeer and oversteer?

are replays the best way to know if the car is bottoming out?
 
yes, can give you more traction for RWD and there are other benefits sometimes: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5086494#post5086494

in theory: yes, in GT5: dunno, I doubt whether GT5 even models a car bottoming out, test for yourself (by lowering the car in 5mm steps until weird bottoming out stuff happens) to decide what you believe

some of the tuners here prefer to stick with the default ratio (since it matches the weight balance) and use other settings to trim balance

occasionally they will show sparks (much less than GT4), but it is far better to feel what's going on from behind the wheel than drawing conclusions from the graphics
 
Bottoming out can be seen online, via sparks from under the car, but I haven't heard, felt or seen any issues of this happening offline. Another one of the 'physics' arguing points.

I disagree with nomis that tuners should stick to default ratios for two reasons.
1: Many tuners have pointed out, that the default spring rates, don't actually match the true balance of the car in real life. Some may, but not all, so it's an unsafe assumption to base your tunes.
2: A theory about weight reduction stages performed in the tuning shop, is that they don't remove weight evenly across the car. Therefor creating an entirely different weight ratio to take into account.
 
Hi Adrenaline!
1: Many tuners have pointed out, that the default spring rates, don't actually match the true balance of the car in real life. Some may, but not all, so it's an unsafe assumption to base your tunes.
(I'm guessing there's a thread somewhere to discuss this properly? Anyway, just in passing...)
The difference could be due to suspension motion ratios, or maybe Polyphony were using different weight distributions than people have found online (perhaps due to fuel tank, driver, or even just plain errors in the data...). Not saying you're wrong or anything :), just mentioning some possibilities.

2: A theory about weight reduction stages performed in the tuning shop, is that they don't remove weight evenly across the car. Therefor creating an entirely different weight ratio to take into account.
Yeah, that's another GT5 physics argument to ponder over!
 
Real cars don't use spring rates in proportion to their actual weight distribution even when motion ratios match most of the time. There are other variables in the car, whether those get modeled to reflect the impact on handling, or whether spring rate proportions are generated to reflect their real world non-real weight distribution equipped rates, are irrelevant anyways.

Personally, I think the weight distribution from upgrades is just a simply flat rate percentage cut off the curb weight figure provided in the game. The misconception comes from the changes in handling quality of the relative stiffness of the springs and changes in weight transfer following the upgrade. Keeping the original spring proportion and adapting for percentage of weight change, in addition to ride height changes to affect weight transfer amounts, will yield the desired handling quality if one was present prior to weight reduction.
 
does body roll have any positive effect on cornering?

is tuning the spring rate a matter of the weight and weight distribution of the car?

and subsequently is lowering ride height a matter of the relationship between the new tuned spring rate and ride height limit before bottoming out?

and then adjusting ratio between front spring rate and rear spring rate to affect understeer and oversteer?

are replays the best way to know if the car is bottoming out?

From what I have noticed, on all but the bumpiest of tracks, I gain more from lowering the ride height then I lose from the suspension's travel being shorter. That being said there are some points on some tracks where the car is more likely to become unstable, usually when there is a big bump in a corner, or large curbs that you may catch with your tires in a corner, all depending on your driving style.

For most of these questions there is no "correct" answer, it all depends on how you drive, and how you can handle the car.
 
I certainly do not claim to be a pro at any of this, but I do tune my own setups and race online constantly. I use a wheel and I'm not a very good driver, I find myself way overly aggressive and turning abruptly in corners and I've noticed when my ride hight is set very low my outside front wheel turns red and slides. Raising hight a little seems to cure this. I could very well be wrong, but I think my aggressive turning combined with low hight and soft springs is bottoming out and contributing to the wheel slide. I've also found while tuning Nascar at Daytona, too low of ride hight causes bottoming out in the corners and does take a couple tenths off my lap times
 
During the Deep Forest time trial that took place a while back, one of the drivers in the top ten, recommended raising the ride height to max and the spring rate to max on the AmemiyaAsparadrink RX-7. At the time it seemed so unconventional that I thought he's just trying to throw us lesser drivers off. But it worked well. This completely shattered my pathological compulsion to automatically lower the ride height.
 
Adrenaline, would you mind explaining "rolling over"? I'm still pretty much a noob at this tuning/lap times aspect of the game, though I'm very much enjoying it, and aspire to become better. I'm currently about 3 seconds behind you on your Deep Forest 69 Z28 hot lap :P
 
Adrenaline, would you mind explaining "rolling over"? I'm still pretty much a noob at this tuning/lap times aspect of the game, though I'm very much enjoying it, and aspire to become better. I'm currently about 3 seconds behind you on your Deep Forest 69 Z28 hot lap :P

Rolling over...
I'm sure someone else can explain the theory of it better than I can, but the basic idea, is that you've put too much force on the outside front tire, to the point, that the tire starts to roll under the car. Imaging the inside of the tire in the air, the outside edge of the tire hard into the ground, so much to the point that you've started to drive on the sidewall of the tire. You've effectively rolled the tire onto it's side, and the contact patch is no longer the tread of the tire.

Here, I did a quick google image search, this shows what I'm talking about:
1111946344_pkUFC-L.jpg


t even has a decent description above/under the image if you'd like to read that as well: http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_arti...andling-part-five-adding-negative-camber.aspx

Do note, I'm not sure if this is even a possibility in GT5 physics.
 
Do note, I'm not sure if this is even a possibility in GT5 physics.

Good description of "rolling the tire over." Do you think they went to the trouble to program this into the game? I don't ever feel any tire play, or squishiness on comfort or sport tires. The advantage of race tires in the real world vs. treaded tires is that the race tire has a more solid feel. A street tire will bend the treads before it breaks loose giving a sort of squishy feel. I don't feel that at all in GT5. The tires either grip or slide - which is how programmers usually think - "A" goes one way and "B" goes another.
 
On the ride height subject, I haven't found a car yet that I have liked better, completely slammed to the ground. There is a point where if I lower it any further, it begins to lose grip and slide around more. Doesn't make sense to me, but the car becomes much less forgiving, the lower I go. Plus, with a slammed low car and stiffer springs, don't touch any curbs.

I'm not seeing faster lap times either with the slammed car. Once I find that point of ill handling, I move the car back up one number and call it optimized.

Maybe I'm not spending enough time trying to optimize all of the other settings specifically for a slammed car? I tend to lower it a little, fine tune it, then creap it lower and lower and lower.

Bottom line: I'm not a fan of dropping the car to the ground. GT3 and previous slamming the car was the way to go. In GT4 the in-game description even warned about going too low, so I think they added something to the programming. For GT5, I feel the too low limit even more.
 
Good description of "rolling the tire over." Do you think they went to the trouble to program this into the game? I don't ever feel any tire play, or squishiness on comfort or sport tires. The advantage of race tires in the real world vs. treaded tires is that the race tire has a more solid feel. A street tire will bend the treads before it breaks loose giving a sort of squishy feel. I don't feel that at all in GT5. The tires either grip or slide - which is how programmers usually think - "A" goes one way and "B" goes another.

I agree, it's unlikely that it's programmed in.
The best way to find out, I suppose, would be to design a tune that overloads the RF on Comfort Softs, then watch the replay as close as you can, to see if it's even visually happening.
 
That's where I was lost, I didn't even consider that PD actually put that extent of physics into it (still don't , though haven't tested that deep into it) I'm sticking with the "lowest isn't always better" theory for now, and I'm gonna continue to work on being more subtle with my corner entry. By the way, love your tune reviews Adrenaline, been following them and using your findings to help improve my own tunes and times
 
That's where I was lost, I didn't even consider that PD actually put that extent of physics into it (still don't , though haven't tested that deep into it) I'm sticking with the "lowest isn't always better" theory for now, and I'm gonna continue to work on being more subtle with my corner entry. By the way, love your tune reviews Adrenaline, been following them and using your findings to help improve my own tunes and times

I definitely agree about ride height. I'm usually skeptic about people who just slam the ride height in their tunes. A lower center of gravity is good, but not if it's at the expense of throwing off the suspension geometry. This doesn't seem to be an issue offline, but in online racing, it seems as if too low has a greater effect on handling (negatively), but that could just be placebo.

Glad you enjoy the reviews, I've got some decent feedback and it's definitely helped me testing such a wide array of tunes, playing with them and documenting the results. I still don't know how to make a tune from scratch, but if I can find a good starting point to work from, I've been somewhat successful in adapting existing tunes, to my personal needs.
 
By the way, love your tune reviews Adrenaline, been following them and using your findings to help improve my own tunes and times

+1 Mad respect for your reviews and organizing every tune on the forum into one place.
 
thanks all. GT5 just doesn't give any objective measures for tuning!

GT4 driving park was very useful.

Seems like we can only guess how PD calculated/set/tuned suspension ratios for SL65 Tuned version, GT-R Academy version, 370Z Academy version, etc.
 
The advantage to a lower ride height is less body roll. The disadvantage to a lower ride height is not enough body roll and reduced traction on bumpy sections of tracks.

I've driven a few slammed tunes and here's what I don't like
* Poor braking, especially trail braking. The front tires lack grip entering turns because you cannot use your momentum and the brake pedal to shift weight forward onto the front tires.
* Poor grip over rumble strips, curbs, and uneven pavement. With a softer suspension you can drive over edges of the track under full throttle without worrying about what will happen. With a low stiff suspension you typically have to avoid touching the curbs entirely.

Most of my tunes use default height or at most -10. I will run slightly stiffer springs and dial down body roll with the rollbars. This still gives me the ability to trail brake because the nose will still dip under heavy braking.

The only time i venture lower than -10 is when I am using downforce and racing tires.
 
The advantage to a lower ride height is less body roll. The disadvantage to a lower ride height is not enough body roll and reduced traction on bumpy sections of tracks.

I've driven a few slammed tunes and here's what I don't like
* Poor braking, especially trail braking. The front tires lack grip entering turns because you cannot use your momentum and the brake pedal to shift weight forward onto the front tires.
* Poor grip over rumble strips, curbs, and uneven pavement. With a softer suspension you can drive over edges of the track under full throttle without worrying about what will happen. With a low stiff suspension you typically have to avoid touching the curbs entirely.

Most of my tunes use default height or at most -10. I will run slightly stiffer springs and dial down body roll with the rollbars. This still gives me the ability to trail brake because the nose will still dip under heavy braking.

The only time i venture lower than -10 is when I am using downforce and racing tires.
This is inline with how i have experienced things, however i still try to lower cars as much as possible (because it suites my driving style). Sometimes i'll do this:
-calculate the spring rate ratio
-calculate the maximum spring rate that can be achieved without deviating from the desired spring rate above.
On some cars you can not make the springs hard enough to compensate for the amount that you have lowered the car - you must bare in mind the units of springrate kgforce per mm. So for every mm you lower the car you must increase the springrate.

You can test this: Take a default setting and drop it to minimum ride height and watch the nose of the car dive under braking. This is because the springs are no longer stiff enough for the job.

So once you have found the optimal minimum ride height and stiffened the springrate to account for this you need to take further steps to compensate for lowering the car.
-stiffen the bump and rebound as the suspension travel is much less so the dampers have to be stiffened as well.
-Now that the car is very stiff the car will respond faster in terms of handling, but the window that you have to work with is smaller - you have to be more precise and on the money with everything. The reason that the car responds faster is that the roll moment is smaller - there is less body roll. So to reflect this you must experiment and reduce camber on the wheels. If you had a higher ride height and a softer setting for say nurburgring you may have had camber on the front around 2.0-2.5 degrees but this must be reduced in a stiffer setup as the car is not going to roll enough to need this much camber.
-Another issue is tyres: very stiff setups can exceed the performance of low grade tyres.

So the limiting factors are springrate (whether the car can go stiff enough for its minimum ride height) and tyres, (whether the tyre can withstand the force place upon it by the stiffly sprung setup.
Dampers and camber are fine tuning; Apply anti rollbars to keep force equally placed on tyres from left to right.
If you do these things then you should get a pretty tight car and will not be affected by bumps as badly as you'd expect. You will be compromised by steep curves (like you get on grand speedway) if the wheel does not hit the bump square on, however, the car will respond so much more quickly that you can drive on the track and not have to resort to going off road. Unfortunately this type of setup doesn't always work in timetrials as you can't exploit the track fully.
Still on other tracks it works just fine.

edit:
Yes, Praiano63 you're right, if the camber is high then the tyre contact area to the ground is small and if the tyre doesn't provide enough force on entering a corner then the car won't roll over onto the tyres full surface area properly. This issue is magnified on tracks like nurburgring where the track goes off camber on some corners and/or is very bumpy. In this case its better to have less camber so that you can try and maintain full surface area contact with the tyre and road as often as possible.
In addition to this, large differences in camber on the front and rear of the car can cause the car to be come unstable. This is because whilst the front tyres may have maximum surface contact to the road in a corner and the camber on the back of the car is too different then at that moment the rear wheels will probably not have maximum surface contact to the road. Sometimes this can be sorted by clever tuning like lewis_hamilton's 1989 Nissan GTS-T tune for the recent 1989 Tsucuba timetrial. (i've tested very few tunes - i'm new to GT5)
Lastly it should be noted that even if you do make a setup with racing softs and have everything setup well for a high camber setup then you may end up with a tune that works VERY well on a few corners but will be unstable or handle poorly on others.
 
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This is inline with how i have experienced things, however i still try to lower cars as much as possible (because it suites my driving style). Sometimes i'll do this:
-calculate the spring rate ratio
-calculate the maximum spring rate that can be achieved without deviating from the desired spring rate above.
On some cars you can not make the springs hard enough to compensate for the amount that you have lowered the car - you must bare in mind the units of springrate kgforce per mm. So for every mm you lower the car you must increase the springrate.

You can test this: Take a default setting and drop it to minimum ride height and watch the nose of the car dive under braking. This is because the springs are no longer stiff enough for the job.

So once you have found the optimal minimum ride height and stiffened the springrate to account for this you need to take further steps to compensate for lowering the car.
-stiffen the bump and rebound as the suspension travel is much less so the dampers have to be stiffened as well.
-Now that the car is very stiff the car will respond faster in terms of handling, but the window that you have to work with is smaller - you have to be more precise and on the money with everything. The reason that the car responds faster is that the roll moment is smaller - there is less body roll. So to reflect this you must experiment and reduce camber on the wheels. If you had a higher ride height and a softer setting for say nurburgring you may have had camber on the front around 2.0-2.5 degrees but this must be reduced in a stiffer setup as the car is not going to roll enough to need this much camber.
-Another issue is tyres: very stiff setups can exceed the performance of low grade tyres.

So the limiting factors are springrate (whether the car can go stiff enough for its minimum ride height) and tyres, (whether the tyre can withstand the force place upon it by the stiffly sprung setup.
Dampers and camber are fine tuning; Apply anti rollbars to keep force equally placed on tyres from left to right.
If you do these things then you should get a pretty tight car and will not be affected by bumps as badly as you'd expect. You will be compromised by steep curves (like you get on grand speedway) if the wheel does not hit the bump square on, however, the car will respond so much more quickly that you can drive on the track and not have to resort to going off road. Unfortunately this type of setup doesn't always work in timetrials as you can't exploit the track fully.
Still on other tracks it works just fine.

Agree 100%, i would write this if my english were good enough..:)
I would add just one thing, the camber must be lower for lower grade tires even for the ring soft springs . Also you need to consider that a higher value of camber is bad for tire wear if you need to make some more laps and can bring stability problems in certain cases or poor direction in low speed turn.

:)👍 Nice and clear , congrats.
 
Has any one ever tried this, say a cars front and rear ride height arent even. Such as -40 -30. I visually look at the car in garage and adjust height and test. Works well for me. Anyone?
 
Has any one ever tried this, say a cars front and rear ride height arent even. Such as -40 -30. I visually look at the car in garage and adjust height and test. Works well for me. Anyone?
Wasn't there a guy once who said +15/-15 works great for Nascars (circuit tune of course, not oval) because of the exact same reason? Didn't like it at all.
 
Care to elaborate on that..?? I'm curious to know how you calculate the spring ratio...

{Cy}
Short answer: (assume use of fully customisable suspension kit)
-I get the default front and rear spring rate and add them together to get the 'total spring rate'.
-then divide the front spring rate by the total spring rate. This give the default front spring rate as a ratio.

Long answer:
If you take the front spring rate ratio you can then use this to calculate stiffer settings.
Eg you lowered the car 15mm (front and back) and so you want to make it stiffer to suit. So get the total spring rate (say 20) and add 15*, gives total of 35. Then multiply the total spring rate by the spring rate ratio. This gives the new front spring rate.
For the rear spring rate get the total spring rate and subtract the front spring rate. You will be left with the new rear spring rate.
*i chose 15 here because the unit used for spring rate is kg of force per mm.

Longer answer:
-I compare the stock spring rate ratio to the spring rate derived from the cars weight distribution. I use this range between stock and 'weight distribution derived spring rate' for testing. And i go above or below that range if i feel i should.
-I get the 'weight distribution derived spring rate' by taking the total spring rate and multiplying it by the front weight distribution. So if the weight distribution is 60:40 (front and rear respectively) i multiply the total spring rate by 0.6 and this gives the front spring rate ratio relative to the cars weight distribution. You can then subtract the new front spring rate from the total spring rate to obtain the new rear spring rate which will be relative to the cars weight distribution.
For stick controller driving i found that the spring rate ratio derived from the weight distribution was often spot on, but for steering wheels, most often this will not work; you have to test further.

To add to this: These methods assume that the suspension/spring rate relationship is linear. With a Macpherson strut the spring is over the rotation point so the relationship will be linear eg 1mm drop 1kg increase in spring rate. next example: with the trailing arm suspension on the rear of volvo 245 the spring is NOT over the rotation point of the suspension so the relationship is not 1:1. Most modern cars have Independant rear suspension so you should be safe here...mostly...

I've used the method to develop a tune for the toyota 86 2012 running a weight distribution of 47:53 just as an experiment. This setup is working surprisingly well. Sometimes i've not had much luck moving the weight distribution (center of gravity) so far from its stock ratio. What this setup has enable me to do is run the car with stage 1 weight reduction then add the weight back to stock weight and then shift it to get the 47:53 ratio. I can then play with running a lighter weight or slightly heavier and decide whether i want to run slightly more or less power for this current time trial at grand valley.
 
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Thanks Yak, I'll have a look at this when I'm on next. Spring rate, for me, is the most important suspension element. All other elements, IMO, are used to trim the car...


{Cy}
 
Not sure doctor, but on a oval NASCARS bottom out at +6 +6 (At Daytona Speedway, I cant imagine a + and negative that extreme. Even on a road course. But NASCAR heights are even, im talking about some visually looking at the car. Some cars have ride height -20 - 30, If you lower it all the way (not a good idea). But visually the car may be even at -10 -10 instead. Its the uneven ride heights. Most cars are even, but some arent. Was redoing NASCAR tune last night. and at 15 8 I got real loose on Daytona
 
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