Super car/Sports car power barrier

You know, its obvious that a 730BHP Ferrari F12 is a Super car, and a Mazda MX-5 at 170BHP is only a sports car - but at which point does the power of the car become high enough to consider it a Super car (by the standards of 2012) and lower than that number means its only a sports car.

If it had 450BHP, and weighed less than 1000kgs, it would go faster than a 2000kg 600BHP power, but the latter car would be more likely to be considered a super car.

I think it might be 475BHP, I look at the Maserati Granturismo S and I think 'its not fast enough', even the Aston Martin V12 Vantage with 510 BHP only gets to 60 in 4.1, but surely that is a Super car?

I would put a poll, but I don't think I could accurately divide the options precisely enough. But I think the marker 'must' be somewhere between 400-550 BHP, others may think otherwise.

That's one opinion, a lack of one I would call it, but otherwise, there must be a point where it becomes super car and not just sports car.

Hard question to answer, but famine seemed to some it up well. I guess a supercar to be called such has to generally (at least) loosely fit/have a certain spec/criteria - ergonomics, power, weight, drive, styling, cost, insanity, non practicality and so on, but each one of those criterias are not necessarily to be measured or fit exactly to qualify a car as a supercar. Imagine a pot, lots random ingredients, mix it all together and if it smells and tastes like how you imagine a supercar to be then that's what you have.

I think the whole "is it a supercar" is more subjective and is upto people's interpretation.

Well then there's acceleration to consider as well, top speed is like a whole seperate thing.

Again, everyone would agree that an MX-5 isn't, and a Ferrari F12 is, so there has to be some sort of criteria to define them, the Ferrari has more power, faster speed and acceleration, but ultimately there are defining factors that makes one a super car and one a sports car.

Conza

Well then there's acceleration to consider as well, top speed is like a whole seperate thing.

Again, everyone would agree that an MX-5 isn't, and a Ferrari F12 is, so there has to be some sort of criteria to define them, the Ferrari has more power, faster speed and acceleration, but ultimately there are defining factors that makes one a super car and one a sports car.

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Plenty of mad kit cars that will smoke a Ferrari f12 from 0-100mph but they are not considered by many to be supercars. Stick an f12 motor and fat rear Tyres in/on an mx5 and it will smoke an f12. Its not any one criteria met that makes what is to be considered a supercar a supercar, but numerous boxes have to be ticked plus a healthy dose of opinion. Mabe an estate car ticks all the perceived boxes, power, acceleration, engine type etc, but the mere fact that it is an estate for many won't qualify it as a supercar.

Conza

Well then there's acceleration to consider as well, top speed is like a whole seperate thing.

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Then the same thing applies again - the original supercar is now outrun by any one of a number of hot hatchbacks. Or a bunch of Japanese three-box rally-derived family cars.

Outright acceleration/speed performance cannot be an arbiter of supercarness.

It's an unsatisfactory conclusion to come to, but supercars have to be defined by a je ne sais quoi in my opinion.

Quickest car I've driven is the Jaguar XKR-S. Does it look stunning? Yes. Does it have a suitably powerful engine? Yes. Is it quick? Yes - sub 4s to 60mph, and does 186mph. Top speed aside it's every bit the equal of the Jag XJ220. And yet the XJ220 was (and is) a supercar, the XKR-S is just a very fast GT. It's not low and sleek enough, it's not special enough.

If I were to throw out my own arbitrary criteria, it would simply be "high performance engine, out-of-the-ordinary styling". And that's about it.

And styling is probably the most important thing. If it's low, sleek, wild, and turns heads, then it's most of the way to becoming a supercar. Thus a Lamborghini Miura qualifies even though, as Famine points out, it'd get soundly thrashed on performance by modern average-performance cars today.

Relative performance could be a factor - i.e. back in the 60s a Miura was one of the quickest cars on the road - but then judging on my je ne sais quoi criteria I'd call stuff like the Spyker C8 or Morgan Aero Supersports, supercars - they certainly have plenty of performance, but they're by no means the quickest vehicles on the road. But they do stand out an absolute mile next to plenty of quicker cars.

I'm building on my criteria here as I type - does it turn heads outside the Grand Casio in Monaco, or the Burj al Arab in Dubai, even though it's parked beside a dozen Ferrari 458s? The Morgan and Spyker almost certainly would. So again, probably supercars IMO.

Supercar is a term used most often to describe an expensive high end car. It has been defined specifically as "a very expensive, fast or powerful car".[1] Stated in more general terms: "it must be very fast, with sporting handling to match", "it should be sleek and eye-catching" and its price should be "one in a rarefied atmosphere of its own"

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I can roll with that.

Like has been said there is more to it than just horsepower. Most people don't consider the Dodge Viper a supercar yet it has more horsepower than a lot of cars that are considered supercars. I don't even really know what my own criteria for categorizing a supercar is but it's about more than just power.

I believe the only true test of a supercar is to place a 10 year old boy* within 2 metres of the car in question and measure their reaction.

Anything less than open-eyed amazement mean it's just another car.


*With a comprehensive hot wheel collection.

I believe the ZR1 is a Supercar even though some would like to think otherwise.

To put it as simple as I can, it's a simple term defined by the media, and one's opinion

I think the "barrier" is the brand name. Most people will think a Ferrari is a supercar whilst, say, a Mazda, is a sports car.

It's mainly just opinion.

My Supercar Criteria as Follows 1 Design 2 Accelaration 3 Speed 4 HorsePower

The barrier between sports car and super car evolves as the car world does. It's never ever really set entirely in stone. Hence why you see Miuras being referred to as supercars back when they were released, when now much modern stuff with much less style as a Miura beat it. It's all to do with evolution.

Famine

There isn't one.

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This. A "super car" is more an idea than an actual thing. One thing that is true about all supercars is that there's just something special about them. Is that vague enough? A supercar is a supercar, that's just the way it is. Don't think too hard or you'll spoil it for everyone.

I would consider weight more important than power when it comes to supercarness. But ultimately, it's down to performance as a whole (especially performance that does not involve only straight lines).

At 170 hp, a Miata has more than enough engine to be a supercar, but the overall package doesn't have the performance to meet my the criteria in my opinion. Likewise, a the latest 800 and 1000 hp Mustangs aren't supercars to me.

I like to think of the supercar barrier as being between the base Corvette C6 and Corvette C6 Z06. The latter is a supercar, the former isn't.

Highly subjective term. But for me, a super car is a combination of rarity, performance and technology, excelling in all 3. Take Ferrari for example, only the 288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo are super cars, all other more common models are simply high end sports cars.

One of the oddities that breaks up most "supercar" definitions is the Corvette/911-like tier of models. A ZR1 or a GT2 are certainly capable enough to be considered a supercar. But, they have base models which agreeably are just sports cars or grand tourers.

Ok, everyone is completely off the mark - Its my fault, this happens in all my threads, I just need to restate the question for debate.

What power level would seperate a sports car from a super car - today - in your opinion.

Nothing else matters, rarity, weight, shape, ect ect, just power. Clear on that?

Conza

Ok, everyone is completely off the mark - Its my fault, this happens in all my threads, I just need to restate the question for debate.

What power level would seperate a sports car from a super car - today - in your opinion.

Nothing else matters, rarity, weight, shape, ect ect, just power. Clear on that?

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Then it's simple, there is none.

A lightweight car with a few hundred horsepower will have the same affect as a 2 tonne car with a thousand. Power:weight is perhaps more relevant.

Then it isn't simple, you've once again misunderstood the question.

P-O-W-E-R level, forget weight entirely, most super cars weigh between 1400-1800kgs, its about power. That's it. Quantifiable number. God am I regretting not doing a poll.

Conza

Then it isn't simple, you've once again misunderstood the question.

P-O-W-E-R level, forget weight entirely, most super cars weigh between 1400-1800kgs, its about power. That's it. Quantifiable number. God am I regretting not doing a poll.

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No, I haven't. I've simply stated that the P-O-W-E-R level is irrelevant, and thus so is your question.

Exorcet

I like to think of the supercar barrier as being between the base Corvette C6 and Corvette C6 Z06. The latter is a supercar, the former isn't.

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That's an interesting statement. See, I don't consider the Z06 a supercar. I don't even think the ZR1 is a supercar. I think it's still a Corvette, and Corvettes are just as common as Miatas around here. If every time I saw a Corvette was an "Oh snap!" moment I'd have arthritis by now.

DeMuro would probably tell you that Ferrari 360s and 430s aren't supercars either because the place is crawlin' with them. Eh, a 458 might be a supercar. Maybe. I kind of just think it's a top-tier sports car. The Enzo is a proper supercar and always will be.

As for Lamborghini, the Gallardo isn't a supercar anymore and the Murci is teetering on the edge of losing its status.

Vipers have never been supercars. I don't even think the new one qualifies simply because it's being held back by its predecessors.

But the Ford GT is a supercar and always will be. Any car that when you drive it off the lot and it goes up in value is obviously something very special.

Porsche's only supercar of recent history was the Carrera GT. Porsche has a tough time making supercars because they're all 911s. The only difference is the engine and the price.

Conza, you're asking an impossible question. There is no answer to your question, the rest of us know that, and therefore we cannot answer. Even if you did a poll, none of us would have answered if there wasn't a "it doesn't matter" category.

Conza

Ok, everyone is completely off the mark - Its my fault, this happens in all my threads, I just need to restate the question for debate.

What power level would seperate a sports car from a super car - today - in your opinion.

Nothing else matters, rarity, weight, shape, ect ect, just power. Clear on that?

Click to expand...

Conza

Then it isn't simple, you've once again misunderstood the question.

P-O-W-E-R level, forget weight entirely, most super cars weigh between 1400-1800kgs, its about power. That's it. Quantifiable number. God am I regretting not doing a poll.

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Famine

There isn't one.

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Post two.

Conza

Then it isn't simple, you've once again misunderstood the question.

P-O-W-E-R level, forget weight entirely, most super cars weigh between 1400-1800kgs, its about power. That's it. Quantifiable number. God am I regretting not doing a poll.

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Let's examine doing it by P-O-W-E-R level and nothing else. Let's say the number is 600 HP.

604 HP. Supercar:

594 HP. Not a Supercar:

I think what decides whether it's a super car or sports car is the power, build quality and materials, price, it's capabilities and last but not least the desirability to own the car. For example the desirability for a Nissan 370Z is not as high as maybe a Mercedes SLS AMG.