Of course F1 is going to be challenge for an american driver

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A2K78

A2K78

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pretty interesting article:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/racing/news/20130710/f1-american-drivers.ap

My take --- the problem isn't a lack of talent as there are many other drivers who boast talent beyond that of *cough* Scott Speed, but rather the culture in F1 that either (a)favor mostly european drivers or (b) those drivers that a well-connected either by wealth, politics or family. In fact this is the very same mindset which also permeates in MotoGP where the top teams are favoring seem to have a liking for favoring either italians or spaniards. The end result is that now Dorna is complaining that the sport have too many europeans.

Anyhow with that in mind, until F1 and mostly the teams get over their close-mindedness its going to be a long shot for any talented american like Alexander Rossi to get into a top spot.
 
...I don't agree at all with this, the problem has more to do with the interest of American backers and motorsports in general. It's much easier to see a return in money sponsoring a Sprint Cup driver or Izod racer than someone who has to rise up the ranks to get to F1 and hope that said driver gets into a competitive car. There have been many people that are top tier and champions that weren't european and went on to win in F1. The idea that the American tag bars people from making it to F1 is ridiculous, in reality culture of American Motorsports stops people from trying to get to F1 and in the end money when backers don't come around.
 
The time just isn't right. I'm hopeful that one day an American will win at COTA, and we'll see the same spirit the British and Spanish crowds give their drivers.
 
I don't agree with the article. My impression is that NASCAR is the biggest threat to the development American F1 drivers. It seems to me that most of the talented young American drivers are thrown into the stock car ladder system instead of single seaters, and their skills are developed for the rigors of oval racing and NASCAR, and not optimized for F1. Simply put, NASCAR saps most of the talent out of the pool for itself (both directly and indirectly), so there's less young prospects aiming for careers in single seaters. It's not Europe's fault, there's plenty of South Americans and Asians making their way to Europe every year with hopes of climbing the ladder and eventually into F1, Americans aren't doing the same.

I would also don't think that Rossi and Daly merit F1 drives, though Rossi will probably get a seat due to his Caterham connections.

It's also worth noting Michael Lewis, Gustavo Menezes, Ryan Tveter and Jake Rosenzweig are in the "F1 feeder system", the article made it seem as if there's only two American drivers in Europe to make their point.
 
To me, I see Europe as the center of global motorsport, hence why so many drivers either come from here, or come to here from other continents. America however, I think has it's own bubble of motorsport, with Indycar, NASCAR, etc. So understandably, American drivers are more likely to stay to this bubble.
 
How do you explain all the South American drivers that seem to do pretty well in F1?

MotoGP has a lot of Spanish and Italian riders at the moment simply because the sport is huge in those countries. If a sport is big in your country, sponsors will always be there to further the career of a talented 'local' rider.
 
This

karl53
To me, I see Europe as the center of global motorsport, hence why so many drivers either come from here, or come to here from other continents. America however, I think has it's own bubble of motorsport, with Indycar, NASCAR, etc. So understandably, American drivers are more likely to stay to this bubble.
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TheCracker
How do you explain all the South American drivers that seem to do pretty well in F1?
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It's the lack of American sponsors that will ultimately stand in the way of an American F1 racer.

Pastor Maldonado is one example of a so-so driver with immense sponsorship, who can find his way into teams that need a pay-driver. Pedro Diniz was the ultimate example of cash overcoming mediocrity to secure a drive.

If an American company decided to pony up $50m to see a driver through European series to crack F1, it would happen.

But why would they - they have their huge domestic Nascar and IZOD market, where the return on investment is bigger.
 
Surely there are American companies which do national business. Coke springs to mind, along with any restaurant. Or Disneyland/World/EuroDisney? AT&T used to be the title sponsor of Williams...

Ford, although they wouldnt spend the money, would be good. Re-badge the hell out of the engine and call it Ecoboost or whatever.
 
TheCracker
How do you explain all the South American drivers that seem to do pretty well in F1?
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They're a special case because there aren't huge scores of Canadians, Japanese or generally South-East Asians making it to F1 either. Only recently have we had several Australians popping up but they struggle too.

I'd say Brazilians tend to get quite a bit of backing because of the legacy of drivers like Emerson Fittipaldi and Ayrton Senna. There has been a strong connection between Brazil and European junior formulae for a very long time.
 
SagarisGTB
I don't agree with the article. My impression is that NASCAR is the biggest threat to the development American F1 drivers.
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NASCAR a threat to F1? I don't buy into that argument. In fact to say that NASCAR is threat to F1 would be like saying that NASCAR is the primary reason why MotoGP and AMA is failing to make a splash in america. Not even MotoGP legends Schwantz and Rainey blames NASCAR for the lack of american participation in international motorsports.


SagarisGTB
It seems to me that most of the talented young American drivers are thrown into the stock car ladder system instead of single seaters.
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When you consider the cost of competing in F1 and oppose to championships like IndyCar, NASCAR and AMA(for motorcycles) at thier junior/amateur levels its quite obvious as why most gravitate towards those as oppose tpo international championships...

SagarisGTB
It's not Europe's fault, there's plenty of South Americans and Asians making their way to Europe every year with hopes of climbing the ladder and eventually into F1, Americans aren't doing the same.
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First of all I didn't say its exclusively europe's fault. As I said earlier, alot of it has to do with the fact that most other drivers are "well-connected" especially to individuals with influence and its something no F1 fan can deny.
 
karl53
To me, I see Europe as the center of global motorsport, hence why so many drivers either come from here, or come to here from other continents. America however, I think has it's own bubble of motorsport, with Indycar, NASCAR, etc. So understandably, American drivers are more likely to stay to this bubble.
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Agreed, though I don't think Indycar plays into it that much. I would argue that Indycar loses more talent to stock car racing at the grass-roots level than anything else. In the end, Indy car doesn't have any talent that F1 teams would want.
Ardius
They're a special case because there aren't huge scores of Canadians, Japanese or generally South-East Asians making it to F1 either. Only recently have we had several Australians popping up but they struggle too.

I'd say Brazilians tend to get quite a bit of backing because of the legacy of drivers like Emerson Fittipaldi and Ayrton Senna. There has been a strong connection between Brazil and European junior formulae for a very long time.
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But Canadians, Japanese, Australians and South-East Asians do get their chances in lower formula. For the most part, they don't impress enough to make it to F1.

It is easier for Europeans to get seats in lower formula, but that's only natural. The whole process starts in karting followed by start-up formula, and these are mostly run locally, so it's obviously easier to get local kids and kids from neighbouring states into the karts/cars. Look at this year's ADAC Formel Masters series, 20 of the 21 drivers are Germans or are from Germany's neighbours. By F3, FR2.0 and GP3, there are more non-Europeans coming over, but by this point, costs are much higher and so only the most well backed non-Europeans are making the trip over. Often these are among the most talented young drivers from their countries, though that's not always the case.

There's also the issue of local grass-roots motorsport in the countries in question. Canada doesn't have a strong motorsport heritage (Villeneuve family aside) and the Indycar ladder is an option for young Canadians. Japan and Australia have their own motorsport ladders, though they aren't as well developed as those in Europe (I would guess karting participation is quite low in these three countries, especially Japan). I imagine South-East Asia and India don't have very well developed karting programs. These countries (perhaps Japan aside) aren't good comparisons with the US either, the US being a large developed country with a strong motorsports industry.
A2K78
NASCAR a threat to F1? I don't buy into that argument. In fact to say that NASCAR is threat to F1 would be like saying that NASCAR is the primary reason why MotoGP and AMA is failing to make a splash in america. Not even MotoGP legends Schwantz and Rainey blames NASCAR for the lack of american participation in international motorsports.
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NASCAR isn't a threat to F1, it's a threat to the creation of American F1 drivers. It's undeniable that there's driving talent in the US, but most of it goes into the NASCAR ladder system. It's the smart thing to do. There's money in stock cars in the US and I imagine there's more support and it's cheaper to run than single seaters. If NASCAR wasn't the behemoth it is, there would be more talented kids going to into single seaters and eventually coming to Europe for F3/FR2.0, but that's not the case. Instead, the US is sending over duds like Michael Lewis and Jake Rosenzweig.
 
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A2K78
NASCAR a threat to F1? I don't buy into that argument. In fact to say that NASCAR is threat to F1 would be like saying that NASCAR is the primary reason why MotoGP and AMA is failing to make a splash in america. Not even MotoGP legends Schwantz and Rainey blames NASCAR for the lack of american participation in international motorsports.
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Pretty sure my post explained quite well what you seem to miss in understanding from this other user. Nascar is a threat to American drivers wanting to join F1 thus it is a threat to F1. Sponsors will go out of their way to back nascar drivers. Also your analogy is one of the worse I've seen, why would a popular sedan racing league hinder the number of racers for two wheel sports? I'd say more people rather do dirt bike racing because of marketability than AMA, WSBK, and MotoGP. Also the payout is much more readily seen in Nascar circle....


When you consider the cost of competing in F1 and oppose to championships like IndyCar, NASCAR and AMA(for motorcycles) at thier junior/amateur levels its quite obvious as why most gravitate towards those as oppose tpo international championships...
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...If so then how do American teams make it in the expensive world of Sportscar racing? Also there is a strong following of Americans in Motorcycles, and it's much easier to get into two wheel racing than open wheel racing. Also you clearly have no idea how much it cost to run the smaller feeder systems for Nascar for example. 125,000-150,000 a week in Nationwide alone then you take that to half a million a week in Sprint cup a week, the multiply that over a season with exhibition races also. So they are running on a level of a small F1 team.

First of all I didn't say its exclusively europe's fault. As I said earlier, alot of it has to do with the fact that most other drivers are "well-connected" especially to individuals with influence and its something no F1 fan can deny.
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We aren't denying it, what you are missing is the fact that America is to blame for not having a stronger standing in F1. Groups could easily set up a junior league other than Indy Lights and American backers (once again) rather spend their money at home than abroad.

@Ardius, South America isn't a special case nor is Middle America (Mexico and lower). We've seen plenty of drivers from these "special case regions" stock the F1 field and feeders system over the decades. You know what we haven't seen much of...American drivers.
 
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Phil Hill, Dan Gurney, Richie Ginther and Mario Andretti didn't do so badly.

But these days multi-disciplined champions are an increasing rarity. It's a culture thing; US motorsports culture is quite different from the rest of the world.
 
I don't see where the article missed anything.

Money is perhaps the big matter.

South American and Asian drivers have no higher series to aspire to than F1. In the United States, the big money series are NASCAR and Indy, which filter away the top talent that might otherwise go to European feeder series, looking for a seat in F1.

And the popularity of NASCAR in the United States ensures that drivers can find sponsors for their trip there. Without a lot of sponsorship money, it's difficult to break into F1.

It's like asking why American carmakers don't sell compact/midsized pick-ups in the United States, even though they produce them by the millions outside. Because it makes more sense for them, and more money, to build large pick-ups solely for the American market.
 
Of course it's a challenge, they have to turn left & right.:sly:

On a serious note, most of the cars that conform to the current Pro Mazda series cost around 60k, you could almost run a full schedule with that in stock cars or spec Miata which is probably why most talented U.S. drivers end up in NASCAR or sports car racing.
 
I've always wondered how MotoGP has consistently had successful American riders in its field for decades, but theres only been 2 Americans in F1 over the past 25 years, with only one podium to show for it.

I think its a combination of things people have already mentioned. Kyle Larson is the next big thing in American motorsports, yet he chose NASCAR over Indycar, most likely because of money. AJ Allmendinger was developing into a decent openwheel driver, but left for NASCAR.

In the end the major problem is I think most Americans are not interested in running F1, because theres always Indycar or NASCAR to make alot of money in and they can stay in the states. Top NASCAR drivers pull in 20, 25M a year which is on level with F1, so why go through the trouble to reach F1, where your shelf life will likley be much, much shorter then a career in NASCAR? Or they simply see the odds are too stacked against them so they dont really try to take their career down that route.

If you look at moto racing, the biggest series in the US is AMA, and I seriously doubt they pay as much as NASCAR or Indycar, so thats why alot of American AMA riders aspire to reach WSB or motoGP. Much more money, much more fame.
 
Justin
Of course it's a challenge, they have to turn left & right.:sly:

On a serious note, most of the cars that conform to the current Pro Mazda series cost around 60k, you could almost run a full schedule with that in stock cars or spec Miata which is probably why most talented U.S. drivers end up in NASCAR or sports car racing.
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I just showed the numbers to run a weekend in stock cars, and you'd be more than lucky to be able to run on $60,000 for a weekend. Maybe you can run that much for a few races in ARCA but not Truck, Nationwide and for sure not Sprint Cup. Sportcar racing is just as bad, I'm not sure why people think Nascar is so cheap, maybe due to the lack of an extra zero at the end of the price tag, that F1 has.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
I just showed the numbers to run a weekend in stock cars, and you'd be more than lucky to be able to run on $60,000 for a weekend. Maybe you can run that much for a few races in ARCA but not Truck, Nationwide and for sure not Sprint Cup. Sportcar racing is just as bad, I'm not sure why people think Nascar is so cheap, maybe due to the lack of an extra zero at the end of the price tag, that F1 has.
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I was talking about the lower tiers though that people would get into shortly after karting, legends or quarter midgets. I would imagine cost being much more important at that level as most participants won't have much, if any sponsorship to help cover costs.

Also, I was wrong on the Pro Mazda thing as they would likely go to USF2000 first, but the cars seem to cost the same there so I still see cost being a major issue.
 
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Liquid
But these days multi-disciplined champions are an increasing rarity.
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Are they? Perhaps not champions, but certainly the following drivers have switched categories and won races or challenged for the championship...or at least been a major force;
Sebastien Loeb, Yvan Muller, Sebastien Bourdais, Simon Pagenaud, Stephane Sarrazin, Romain Grosjean..hang on I'm listing almost only Frenchmen :lol:

Robert Kubica isn't doing too shabby in a rally car.

Any one of these could be champion in several different types of motorsport with the right amount of luck. Yvan Muller already is a multiple touring car champion and ice-racing champion. Bourdais and Pagenaud could feasibly win Le Mans one day and Indycar (Bourdais already having won Champcar multiple times). Sarrazin and Loeb seem pretty handy in anything although don't hang around in many series long enough (yet).
Grosjean pretty much won a race in anything he drove before F1 from GP2 to GT1.

Kubica could well have been an F1 champion and is clearly very fast (if crashy) in a rally car.
 
Justin
I was talking about the lower tiers though that people would get into shortly after karting, legends or quarter midgets. I would imagine cost being much more important at that level as most participants won't have much, if any sponsorship to help cover costs.

Also, I was wrong on the Pro Mazda thing as they would likely go to USF2000 first, but the cars seem to cost the same there so I still see cost being a major issue.
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Oh I see, you were talking about dirt track, see I thought we were all just talking about feeder tiers like GP2, WSR 3.5, and GP3 compared to Nascar feeder tiers and IZOD
 
And honestly, what's more popular to an up-and-coming American driver? Saying something like "I want to drive in this obscure racing series that maybe 1-2% of Americans have heard of, it's less popular than lacrosse, and I might have to pay my way into a seat if I'm not absurdly talented...and I'll be home to visit maybe twice a year."

If a kid makes some announcement to his friends and family along the lines of: "My dream is go into NASCAR or drive in the Indy 500", there's going to be a bit more support.

You can see where this is going.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Oh I see, you were talking about dirt track, see I thought we were all just talking about feeder tiers like GP2, WSR 3.5, and GP3
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I think when you look at Formula 3 level you see a better picture of the difference between the US and everyone else:

Europe
European Union F3 Euro Series
United Kingdom British F3 Championship
Germany ATS Formel 3 Cup (Germany)
Italy Italian Formula 3 Championship
Spain Spanish F3 Championship
Russia Russian Formula3 Series
Austria Austria Formula 3 Cup
Finland Nordic F3 Masters (former Finnish F3 Championship)
North European Zone Formula 3 Cup

South America
Formula Three Sudamericana
Brazil Formula 3 Brazil Open
Chile Chilean Formula Three Championship

Asia
Asian F3 Championship
Japan All-Japan F3 Championship
Macau Macau Grand Prix

Oceania
Australia Australian F3 Championship
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That pretty much reflects the common nationalities seen at F1 level bar one or two like Chile and Macau.
 
Ardius
I think when you look at Formula 3 level you see a better picture of the difference between the US and everyone else:



That pretty much reflects the common nationalities seen at F1 level bar one or two like Chile and Macau.
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What the hell are you going on about? First off we were talking about price with what you quoted and how American series aren't cheap, but since they by far have much more American backing from American companies than F1, the money is there much sooner for up and coming drivers. Maybe quoting my post in response earlier to you would have made more sense.

@Ardius, South America isn't a special case nor is Middle America (Mexico and lower). We've seen plenty of drivers from these "special case regions" stock the F1 field and feeders system over the decades. You know what we haven't seen much of...American drivers.
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This is probably what you were referring to when you wrote that. Problem is there are series in America that help a driver take the leap to GP3, and are close to Formula 3 level and drivers that want to take the leap toward F1 like Conor Daly and Rossi. You are skewing the reality that has been laid out and I wonder if you know what we have here in the states. Just because there isn't an F3 series does not correlate a reason for American drivers not going toward F1. In reality Indy Lights picks up these drivers and they aren't always American.

Also it'd be a much better conscious decision to show Formula Ford which is usually a natural leap to F3 and we've seen that for many famous drivers of any national or international racing; drivers in europe usually go to F1 with it, in America and even South America they seem to rather go to IZOD more so than F1, in Australia it is as bad, with them going to V8 Supercars. I'd say Asia is far worse when it comes to producing famous race drivers any where.
 
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I've always felt that the Bubble Theory is the reason Americans have not featured in F1 for a while. As many have mentioned, it is simply not cost efficient for an upcoming American driver to want to drive in F1, or ride in MotoGP, or pretty much any other discipline excluding NASCAR, IndyCar, or even ALMS & Grand Am.

I might try to draw up a diagram of what I see the Bubble Theory to be if I can, but I can't personally see any other reason, as even costs come under that bracket. But it is always nice to see an American driver competing in Europe every once in a while, or any driver from F1 go to America with the ambitions of being successful. I admire Nigel Mansell for that. Not so much Juan Pablo Montoya, but I guess he counts.
 
TheEnd35000vr
I've always felt that the Bubble Theory is the reason Americans have not featured in F1 for a while. As many have mentioned, it is simply not cost efficient for an upcoming American driver to want to drive in F1, or ride in MotoGP, or pretty much any other discipline excluding NASCAR, IndyCar, or even ALMS & Grand Am.

I might try to draw up a diagram of what I see the Bubble Theory to be if I can, but I can't personally see any other reason, as even costs come under that bracket. But it is always nice to see an American driver competing in Europe every once in a while, or any driver from F1 go to America with the ambitions of being successful. I admire Nigel Mansell for that. Not so much Juan Pablo Montoya, but I guess he counts.
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I agree, but there are plenty of riders and more than 7 times the amount of champions in MotoGP alone (not even counting WSBK). And the number of champions seen in the past two decades alone crushes the number of american drivers seen in F1, also there are currently five American riders this season in MotoGP, that is far more than the last decade of F1. Though Dirt Bike racing pays well for the big guys and is easier to get into (though expensive), AMA isn't that bad and it does help promote American guys to the international stage. The american feeder system for Formula type racing keeps them here sadly and they end up in Indy cars or Nascar because of it, but fame is fame I guess.
 
Earth
I've always wondered how MotoGP has consistently had successful American riders in its field for decades, but theres only been 2 Americans in F1 over the past 25 years, with only one podium to show for it.
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You bring up an interesting point and I have a theory as why...its a cultural thing. When I look at F1 all I see is a rich boy sport that emphasis wealth, celebrity, glamour and personal connections as oppose to talent. In MotoGP you have none of that and as a result there is an extreme focus on talent hence why individuals like Rainey, Lawson, Schwantz, Roberts, Hayden, Spies, Edwards, Hopkins were able to get noticed and have a shot at MotoGP.
 
Poppycock.

While Formula One drivers are the rockstars of the motor-racing scene, you won't find a single one who was a wealthy playboy dilletante before becoming a Formula One driver. And you will still not find a successful one who doesn't put in hours a day in terms of practice and conditioning. These guys have been racing from an early age. Most started racing in karts before they were legal to drive.

If you think the drivers in F1 are not "talented", you don't know much about F1. Yes, you get "pay" drivers who get in due to connections, but even these guys are competitive drivers or champions from lower series.

American drivers get into MotoGP because there is no counterpart American-only series for drivers to level-up to.

As discussed earlier in this thread, American four-wheel drivers have another series to level up to. One with a bigger field of competitors (allowing for more berths for drivers), a (somewhat) more level playing field, and huge media exposure inside the United States. Media exposure which means sponsorship money.
 
Earth
I've always wondered how MotoGP has consistently had successful American riders in its field for decades, but theres only been 2 Americans in F1 over the past 25 years, with only one podium to show for it.
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Dirt tracks.

During the period where the Americans won a lot of championships, (1978-1993), most if not all of the Americans had extensive dirt experience before they got on a road bike.

It became their advantage when the bikes started to have too much power for the tires to cope with, sliding the bike turned into the quickest way around the track.

Thus the 13 championships in 16 years.

(Of course now it's all Spaniards because they're riding 24/7 :/ )
 

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