TVR's Chairman on ABS, airbags and safety

Scaff · Apr 19, 2004

Check out the following interview with Peter Wheeler (TVR's chairman).

Its an interesting take on the current obsession manufacturers and governments have with passive safety equipment.

Please read, enjoy and feel free to comment (as if I need to say that).

http://www.pistonheads.com/tvr/index.asp?storyId=8303

///M-Spec · Apr 19, 2004

Interesting perspective, though I have to disagree somewhat with Mr. Wheeler. Living in country with no access to TVRs (boo), I haven't read any press on crash worthiness, good or bad.

But I'm surprised to find someone in this day in age who is still anti-ABS. Mr. Wheeler points to both longer stopping distances and the 'understeery' nature of street cars as supporting evidence. Those don't sound like good reasons to me.

I won't dispute that a non-ABS car will outbrake the same identical one with even the very latest Bosch programmed ABS system. But how good is your average driver at threshold braking? Especially when his life is at stake? Perhaps the average TVR driver is much better than your average Honda or Ford driver, but even then, if you take a random population sampling, most people will end up locking the brakes in a critical situation --dry OR wet. And when you lock up the brakes, you can't steer... if you can't steer...then... CRUNCH.

Bottom line is ABS is safer for the vast majority of the population because it lets them steer while applying max braking.

And so what if street cars are set up to understeer? That's not going to help you if someone is T-boned in front of you and you need to stop in a straight line.

I understand if airbags make Mr. Wheeler uneasy, though. They make a lot of people uneasy. Sometimes, they even make them dead. So that's fine and understandable.

No crumple zones? Now I think he is mad. So what if they crashed a test car and it did fine? How did the DUMMY do? Or was there even one?

M

Dave A · Apr 19, 2004

On certain cars it can be best to leave the ABS off, although I think TVR's should keep with no ABS and so on, I don't think the reasons are right, TVR's are the pure British sports car, and part of being that means total driver control, no ABS no TCS nada and TVR's wouldn't be the same with them.

Dave A · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Interesting perspective, though I have to disagree somewhat with Mr. Wheeler. Living in country with no access to TVRs (boo), I haven't read any press on crash worthiness, good or bad.

No crumple zones? Now I think he is mad. So what if they crashed a test car and it did fine? How did the DUMMY do? Or was there even one?

M

TVR's are safe cars, they are safe in crashes and they are even reliable now, the speed six engine is the best TVR has ever used. The lack of crumple zones is made up for in the materials used, if you crash a TVR you will be as safe as crashind a Honda S2000 for example.

///M-Spec · Apr 19, 2004

There is no reason why a company can't equip a vehicle with ABS, and allow the driver to disable it at will. Traction control and stability control are good examples of saftey devices that can be switched off on most performance oriented cars.

Some cars even have different settings of aggressiveness (ie. a Normal, Sport and Track modes) No reason why TVR can't do the same... except for probably money.

Which I think is the bottom line.

M

Dave A · Apr 19, 2004

But if a TVR has a component that takes any control away from the driver, it no longer is a pure British sports car, tis the truth I tell ya, even if it's there and off, it's there, and it add weight.

///M-Spec · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by live4speed
The lack of crumple zones is made up for in the materials used, if you crash a TVR you will be as safe as crashind a Honda S2000 for example.

I'd like to see some proof. An independant crash test by a reputable source would convince me.

Crumple zones are designed to absorb energy from an impact to the vehicle and reduce energy (and thus injuries) to the occupants. There's plenty of studies showing that properly designed crumple zones can reduce injury and save lives. Otherwise, why did virtually every large automaker in the world adopt this?

M

///M-Spec · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by live4speed
But if a TVR has a component that takes any control away from the driver, it no longer is a pure British sports car, tis the truth I tell ya,

Okay, that's fine. Continue to build pure sports cars. But don't try to convince people you've also built a safe a car as say, a Volvo at the same time.

Originally posted by live4speed
even if it's there and off, it's there, and it add weight.

ABS adds very little weight to a car. Not as much as say... air con or a radio.. both these things a TVR has, no? What else does a TVR have? Power windows? Leather seats?

Maybe the driver can simply go on a diet.

M

Dave A · Apr 19, 2004

Unfortunatley there is no info on crash test I know of other than the occasional real crash in which no driver has been killed or seriousely injured as fas as I know and I've seen a mangled TVR or two.

retsmah · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Okay, that's fine. Continue to be a pure sports car. But don't try to convince people you've also built a safe a car as say, a Volvo at the same time.

I agree. If I were buying a TVR or a similar car I would want it without all the electronic stuff too, but I don't think you can pass off not having ABS as a safety feature.

Dave A · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
ABS adds very little weight to a car. Not as much as say... air con or a radio.. both these things a TVR has, no? What else does a TVR have? Power windows? Leather seats?

Maybe the driver can simply go on a diet.

M

Nope, TVR's don't have power windows, they stick to a tried and tested formula, they can have leather seats but British sports cars are allowed leather seats, if you were a Brit you wouls see how important all this is for TVR to get right, the fact that the lack of ABS saves weight is only a small part of why it isn't their, the main part has been explained.

///M-Spec · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by live4speed
Unfortunatley there is no info on crash test I know of other than the occasional real crash in which no driver has been killed or seriousely injured as fas as I know and I've seen a mangled TVR or two.

Then how do you know for sure a Tuscan (just as an example) is just as safe as an S2000? Was there an S2000 wrecked right beside the TVR you saw?

M

///M-Spec · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by live4speed
Nope, TVR's don't have power windows, they stick to a tried and tested formula, they can have leather seats but British sports cars are allowed leather seats, if you were a Brit you wouls see how important all this is for TVR to get right, the fact that the lack of ABS saves weight is only a small part of why it isn't their, the main part has been explained.

Okay. Does it have a radio? Perhaps an amp for the speakers? How about air con?

M

Dave A · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by retsmah
I don't think you can pass off not having ABS as a safety feature.

That I agree with, as I said in my first post I agree that TVR's shouldn't have ABS, but not for the given reason, Wheeler has also used the pure British sportscar reason before but I think he's looking for further justification there, you have to remeber Wheeler is a pro TVR race driver so he will tihink more like one.

///M-Spec · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by live4speed
Nope, TVR's don't have power windows, they stick to a tried and tested formula, they can have leather seats but British sports cars are allowed leather seats, if you were a Brit you wouls see how important all this is for TVR to get right, the fact that the lack of ABS saves weight is only a small part of why it isn't their, the main part has been explained.

Okay. Does it have a radio? Perhaps an amp for the speakers? How about air con? I promise you all the parts from an ABS system adds to less weight than your average car stereo.

And forget about air con. You can shed 35-50 lbs. by ditching that.

M

Dave A · Apr 19, 2004

Did you read my post? I said that is only a smaal part of why it isn't there, the full reason is it would take control away from the driver, the fact that it save weight is an beneficial extra and will be mentioned because of that. What a TVR can and carn't have as long as it keeps to it's tradition, is dictated by the concept of that Pure British sports car which you probably won't get as well as me, a self professed TVR nut.

///M-Spec · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by live4speed
Did you read my post? I said that is only a smaal part of why it isn't there, the full reason is it would take control away from the driver, the fact that it save weight is an beneficial extra and will be mentioned because of that.

Sure I did. But we're not talking about whether or not TVR builds pure sports cars. We're not talking about whether or not the driver has absolute control. Those facts are not in question. What is in question is whether or not they are safe.

M

vat_man · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
I understand if airbags make Mr. Wheeler uneasy, though. They make a lot of people uneasy. Sometimes, they even make them dead. So that's fine and understandable.

That's a crock. When the airbag issue first arose in the US a few years ago, the press here tried to beat up a similar story here, and failed miserably. Why? 99%+ of drivers in Australia wear seatbelts.

Airbags are a supplementary restraint system, not a primary one.

Dave A · Apr 19, 2004

And I answed that in my first post.

///M-Spec · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by vat_man
That's a crock.

Airbags have injured and sometimes killed people. In these cases, they were also wearing their seat belts. Explain to me how what I wrote was a crock.

According to the NHTSA, over 105 fatalities have been attributed to airbag deployment from 1996-1998. Many of the people were short statured women and children who are close to the deployment zone of the airbag. This is why dual stage or low-powered bags and plenty of warning stickers have become common place in cars.

M

///M-Spec · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by live4speed
And I answed that in my first post.

So TVRs are safe because they are pure driver's cars?

M

Dave A · Apr 19, 2004

No, I said I agree ABS should be left out of a TVR, but I dissagree with the reason given. Go back and re-read my first post.

///M-Spec · Apr 19, 2004

I read it fine the first time; though it is confusing. So maybe you can clarify it. Are you making a comment on the safety levels of a TVR or are you just saying it doesn't matter because pure sports cars shouldn't be concerned with safety? Just help me understand what you're saying.

M

Dave A · Apr 19, 2004

No, a pure British sports car like a TVR shouldn't have ABS, it's a Brit thing. But the lack of ABS no doubt makes it less safe in the hands of a lesser skilled driver, however, anyone who buys a new TVR gets a free drivers course on how to control the car, that still doesn't mean they are suddenley safer, because they only would be if the driver used the correct techniques, easy in theory but put yourself going 40Mph and a kid walks infront of you and it's a different story. However, TVR's are safe cars for their class, you don't see many crashes involving a TVR off the track though, it's almost like people who drive them drive them with respect, you'd think that people would speed in cars that can run rings round your average Ferrari or Porsche, but they don't on the roads.

///M-Spec · Apr 19, 2004

But the lack of ABS no doubt makes it less safe in the hands of a lesser skilled driver

Okay, well that certainly makes more sense to me. Thank you.

M

Scaff · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by live4speed
Nope, TVR's don't have power windows,

Sorry, but most TVR models do have power windows. I've driven quite a few, all of which had electric windows. Also the models without standard door handles (all modern models) have a dimple switch under the drivers door mirror, press this to open the door and the window will also drop (electrically) to aid opening the door.

The picture below clearly shows the brass electric window control from a Cerbera.

Dave A · Apr 19, 2004

Hmm, your right about that one. the newer ones do, I haven't been in a TVR newer than a 1998 model which didn't hav that, I didn't know. But still, electric windows are different to ABS, they don't affect the drivers control.

Scaff · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by live4speed
Hmm, your right about that one. the newer ones do, I haven't been in a TVR newer than a 1998 model which didn't hav that, I didn't know. But still, electric windows are different to ABS, they don't affect the drivers control.

No problem and no argument on the control point.

By the way an interesting point I know of on ABS systems, due to the kick-back felt when it engages most average drivers will back off the brake pedal and substantially increase the cars braking distance.

This is why manufacturers have developed emergency braking systems that detect the velocity of the pedal travel and if the driver brakes hard applies maximum brake force even if they back off the pedal slightly. The maximum force is applied until they completly remove presure from the pedal.

Technology was needed to get round a problem caused by technology.

daan · Apr 19, 2004

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Perhaps the average TVR driver is much better than your average Honda or Ford driver, but even then, if you take a random population sampling, most people will end up locking the brakes in a critical situation --dry OR wet.

An average driver drives to get from A to B and doesn't really care what car gets them there. Most average drivers will not be interested in a TVR.

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
No crumple zones? Now I think he is mad. So what if they crashed a test car and it did fine? How did the DUMMY do? Or was there even one?

No crumple zones in the chassis. The body crumples and takes the energy.

Where a monocoque car will compress its chassis and bodywork in the event of an impact - via its crumple zones a TVR will absorb a huge amount of energy in the glass fibre before the chassis takes any impact.

///M-Spec · Apr 20, 2004

Originally posted by daan
Most average drivers will not be interested in a TVR.

Sure, I'd agree with this. But that skirts the issue. A TVR is safe because most TVR drivers are above average drivers. It says nothing about the car, just the people that buy them.

Originally posted by daan
No crumple zones in the chassis. The body crumples and takes the energy.

That doesn't make sense to me. Body panels don't absorb very much impact energy. Try holding up a fiberglass hood and have someone hit you with a truck.

M

TVR's Chairman on ABS, airbags and safety

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