M3 CSL vs. 330i

  • Thread starter Thread starter kablammo
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kablammo

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I've had it with the CSL!!! I believe that there is something serioulsy wrong with all settings on the CSL, as I've tried a ton. When compared to the 330i I think there is a flaw in the game.

There is absolutely no reason why a lightly modded 330i with 100 less hp turns better, brakes better, and laps on most tracks +/- 1 second.

Anyone feel my pain?? Please post with your findings.

P.S. Oh by the way, when I did my testing, I even tried a wing on the CSL and the 330i DID NOT have one!!!
 
My CSLs have no problems putting buslengths on normal M3s, let alone a "mere" 330i. Maybe you bought a car built during Octoberfest ;) What is the specific problem with yours?


M
 
If you are experiencing excessive understeer on turn-in with the M3 CSL, you are probably braking too late and trying to carry too much speed through the turn.

Have you read Scaff's excellent explanation on braking distances?

With the CSL, it is better to brake early and use some trail braking to get the car rotated. Some playing around with rear toe and front camber can probably improve turn-in as well.

I'm not at home, but I can post my CSL settings later tonight.


M
 
///M-Spec
If you are experiencing excessive understeer on turn-in with the M3 CSL, you are probably braking too late and trying to carry too much speed through the turn.

Have you read Scaff's excellent explanation on braking distances?

With the CSL, it is better to brake early and use some trail braking to get the car rotated. Some playing around with rear toe and front camber can probably improve turn-in as well.

I'm not at home, but I can post my CSL settings later tonight.


M
Click to expand...

The M3 CSL is an excellent car, and far better than the standard M3 (it realy suprised me how much better) and a damn fast car.

M-Spec - thanks for the link, I've put a lot of work in on that thread with some excellent help from a lot of other people.
 
The CSL is one of the best production cars in the game. Try these settings:
Spring rate 9.2 9.4
Ride height 84 84
Bound 8 8
rebound 3 3
camber 2.0 1.0
toe 0 0
swaybar 1 4

downforce 30 30
All driving aides off

Full custom limited slip - Default setting
Medium Race tires.

Max HP
Max weight reduction
No rollcage
No Brake controller
Racing brakes
 
Thanks for all the info everyone I really apprciate it.

I should note what I was using full downforce, sport soft tires, and a plethera of different settings on the CSL. My only engine mod is a chip, exhaust and port job. I just can not tame down the understeer. Even at 35mph it would plow as if on ice and this should not be the case. Maybe I need to refresh the chassis??? I won't give up yet and I'll try all posted settings.

Thanks again for input :dopey:
 
kablammo
Thanks for all the info everyone I really apprciate it.

I should note what I was using full downforce, sport soft tires, and plethera of different settings on the CSL. My only engine mod was a chip and exhaust. I just can not tame down the understeer. Even at 35mph it would plow as if on ice and this should not be the case. Maybe I need to refresh the chassis??? I won't give up yet and I'll try all posted settings.

Thanks again for input :dopey:
Click to expand...

Post your exact modifications and settings so we can have a look, I'm sure someone will be able to help.

Just out of interest why are you running full downforce?
 
I was running no downforce and I figured downforce would help understeer - 30 front 15 rear. I've even tried miss matched tires/harder on the rear and that helped some but so far the 330i seems much better balanced. It has:

no downforce/wing
sport soft tires
slightly different settings on racing suspension
racing exhaust
chip
Custom diff - default
racing clutch and flywheel
Stage 2 lightening
no driving aides
ApProx 300hp

These setting with 100 less hp and I'm within +/- 1 seconds from my best CSL time on the Paris Street track

My latest settings on the CSL were:

F R
Spring rate 11.5 9.5 'tried various setting +/- 3.5 front and rear
Ride height 85 85 'varies from track to track +/- 5mm
Bound 6 6 'tried +/- 3
rebound 8 8 'tried +/- 3
camber 2.5 1.5 ' +/- .5
toe 0 0 or 0 -1 'tried +/- 2
swaybar 5 5
Brake Bias 10 12

downforce - no wing 'tried with 30 30 and 30 15
All driving aides off

Parts installed
Full custom limited slip - Default setting
stage 3 lightening
racing clutch
racing flywheel
Sport Soft Tires
Racing Exhaust
Port and Polish
Chip 412hp

try it on the Paris track in Pan AM Euro leage

Thanks again:)
 
kablammo
I was running no downforce and I figured downforce would help understeer - 30 front 15 rear. I've even tried miss matched tires/harder on the rear and that helped some but so far the 330i seems much better balanced. It has:

no downforce/wing
sport soft tires
slightly different settings on racing suspension
racing exhaust
chip
Custom diff - default
racing clutch and flywheel
Stage 2 lightening
no driving aides
ApProx 300hp

These setting with 100 less hp and I'm within +/- 1 seconds from my best CSL time on the Paris Street track

My latest settings on the CSL were:

F R
Spring rate 11.5 9.5 'tried various setting +/- 3.5 front and rear
Ride height 85 85 'varies from track to track +/- 5mm
Bound 6 6 'tried +/- 3
rebound 8 8 'tried +/- 3
camber 2.5 1.5 ' +/- .5
toe 0 0 or 0 -1 'tried +/- 2
swaybar 5 5
Brake Bias 10 12

downforce - no wing 'tried with 30 30 and 30 15
All driving aides off

Parts installed
Full custom limited slip - Default setting
stage 3 lightening
racing clutch
racing flywheel
Sport Soft Tires
Racing Exhaust
Port and Polish
Chip 412hp

try it on the Paris track in Pan AM Euro leage

Thanks again:)
Click to expand...

Right, just a first look at your settings (I have not tried these yet).

Your front swaybar setting is not going to help, may be stiffening up the front too much, try lowering it to 1.

Your brake bias is set towards the rear, not generally a good move as the fronts will get the weight transfered under braking and are capable of doing more work than the rears, bias it towards the front slightly. It should help, it will also make the car more stable under threshold braking. Have a look at my linked thread and the StopTech paper on brake bias.

Also with the sports tyres (even soft) try and avoid braking and turning at the same time, its just to much work for tyres of this type. Additionally the CSL is a much lighter and faster car than your 330, you will have to brake much earlier and be very smooth when appling the throttle.

I will have a proper play in a few hours time, but the above should help.

Just noticed that front spring rate looks to high when compaired to the back, I tend to run them quite close on the CSL, its got excellent weight distribution to start with.

Try these cahnges one at a time and build up, near change a whole load of settings in one go, you will never figure out which one work and which ones don't.
 
Thanks for the help Scaff . . . . I'll try your suggestions when I get home.

Just for grins, the only reason I had rear brake bias was to help induce rotation.
 
kablammo
Thanks for the help Scaff . . . . I'll try your suggestions when I get home.

Just for grins, the only reason I had rear brake bias was to help induce rotation.
Click to expand...

OK wife and kids off to bed and I've had a play around with a 330 and CSL spec'd as per your post.

I left the 330 as you describe and tried a few settings on the CSL, 5 laps with each setting.

The first was yours which I used as a baseline for CSL times, against my best 330 lap it was 2 seconds faster. Lots of understeer on the faster sweeping corners.

Next were the default settings for the parts fitted (except driving aids - all off), with these I was a second faster than your CSL settings and 3 seconds faster than the 330's best.

Finally my own settings (which are below), these were 3 seconds faster than your CSL settings and 5 seconds faster than the 330's best.

I then compaired my settings with the best 330 lap in the data logger to see where you gain the time.

As expected the CSL is far faster on the straights (approx 10mph), throught the very tight corners its about the same (tyres are the limit here it seems), with the longer corners the CSL gains about 5mph over the 330. This is the key in my mind, use the extra 5mph on the nasty corner than breaks up the two straights and with the additional 10mph on the straight itself you hammer the 330.

Now the 330 is a lot easier to drive on the limit than the CSL and with the CSL you need to watch the kerbs. I personally just clip the very edge of the curbs when apexing the corners, any more and it seriously upsets the cars balance.

My CSL settings (using kablammo's parts)

F / R
Spring Rate 12 / 12.5
Ride Height 73 / 73
Bound 3 / 2
Rebound 6 / 4
Camber 3 / 1.5
Toe 0 / 0
Swaybar 4 / 5
Brake Bias 3 / 3

No downforce as I refuse to fit a wing to my CSL.

Give these a go, but remember that you will need to take care with the CSL, its far faster than the 330 and as such you will need to brake earlier, watch you tyres grip levels through the corners (keep the speed constant during the first part of the corner) and use the throttle gently when leaving the corner. With the CSL and these tyres you can get power oversteer out of some of the tighter corners and while this is fun, its not fast.

Bloody wonderful car the CSL, just needs to be driven smoothly.
 
As promised, here are my CSL settings. This car currently has stage 2 reduction, rollbar, full custom LSD and makes about 420 hp. It does NOT have a brake balancer.

Springs: 7.8 / 8.8
Ride Height: 70 / 78
Shock bump: 7 / 9
Shock rebound: 8 / 6
Camber: -3.2 / -1.8
Toe: 0 / -1
Sways: 4 / 5

The LSD has these settings: 20 / 60 / 30

There is flatout no real way to completely tune out the high-speed understeer without seriously compromising stability. Part of the reason is because of tires. BMW fits 235/35-19s on the front of the CSL and 265/30-19s in the rear, which will naturally cause the car to push in most cases.

The key to making the CSL really perform is choosing an aggressive front camber (-3.2 or more) and LSD setting (I use 60). Camber is crucial on a front strut suspensioned car. And the LSD allows the car to rotate very nicely under power.

The CSL rewards the old adage "slow in, fast out". My approach is to brake early and in an absolute straight line. Trail brake where ever possible and roll on the power early and often. The car should rotate very well with the custom LSD installed.


M
 
All of your help was been wonderful. When I came home from work I sold my CSL and started over fresh - this time with no wing (I'm with you on this one Scaff)

My favorite settings are really a blend of everyones - again thanks for posting!
F R
Spring rate 10 10.5
Ride height 82 82 'varies from track to track +/- 5mm
Bound 6 5
rebound 7 6
camber 3.0 1.5
toe 0 -1
swaybar 2-3, 5
Brake Bias 7 5


All driving aides off

Parts installed
Full custom limited slip - 20/60/30 c.o. //mspec
stage 3 lightening
racing clutch
racing flywheel
Sport Soft Tires
Chip

Thanks again everyone, your help has made me love the CSL again.
 
kablammo
Thanks again everyone, your help has made me love the CSL again.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear that :) One other thing I forgot to post because I was pressed for time; don't forget that each track calls for slight tweaks and that a good general setup is just a baseline to work from. The final product may vary slightly from track to track and even tire to tire.


M
 
I'm currently at work on an M3 that I thoroughly enjoy, but would like to see if my setup is worth pursuing. I thought I'd compare settings with those you folks have developed for the CSL. Any point to that, or is the CSL a different enough beast that I should just start with one of those?

I won the M3 GTR with this M3 lightened and chipped. Both of these cars are fantastic (and I'm a Porsche owner in the real world) and now have me worshipping at the altar of M!

I'll post my settings if you think these cars are comparable.

~Keith
 
The M3 that I mentioned now has racing flywheel, brakes, and exhaust. Stage 3 tune and port polish. Roll cage. Full cust. tranny with 3-plate clutch and carbon drive shaft and full cust. LSD (set at default). 503 hp. I usually tune with sports tires (med and/or soft). The settings I'd muddled into were as follows (F / R):

spring rate: 12 / 10
ride height: 92 / 92
bound: 3 / 3
rebound: 9 / 9
camber: 2.0 / 1.0
toe: 0 / 0
stabilizers: 5 / 5

Interestingly, the car feels very similar to the radically different settings that Jaberwocky posted above, with the exception that I feel the car is easier to "save" with my settings. I don't understand Jaberwocky's reversed bound/rebound values. I'm guessing my higher spring rates are offsetting the lower ride height that Jaberwocky has. The CSL must be able to get lower than the regular M3 because I can't match M-spec's ride height values. M3 only goes down to 79.

I was tuning it to win the Supercar Festival in the Pro series. In GT3 I spent most of my time in the Gran Turismo World Championship series trying to see how low I could go in HP and still win the championship, so I'm headed toward that again it seems. Not that 503 hp is low, but it would be a tough challenge.

~Keith
 
Keith, the real M3 amd M3 CSL have very similar suspension geometry. However, the CSL has much more aggressive spring and shock rates from the factory than the standard car, and the bushings are much harder.

I use very similar settings between the standard M3 and the CSL with a few variations.


M
 
Thanks for the info, M-Spec. These are great cars (in the game, and I'm sure in the "real" world as well.)

Upon further experimentation, I think my spring rates are too hard. At truly high speeds my settings didn't help me as much as Jaberwocky's did. Although, like I said, I don't understand the bound/rebound values Jaber used. I'm gonna play with your CSL settings as a comparison.

Thanks!

~Keith
 
Keith S
Thanks for the info, M-Spec. These are great cars (in the game, and I'm sure in the "real" world as well.)

Upon further experimentation, I think my spring rates are too hard. At truly high speeds my settings didn't help me as much as Jaberwocky's did. Although, like I said, I don't understand the bound/rebound values Jaber used. I'm gonna play with your CSL settings as a comparison.

Thanks!

~Keith
Click to expand...

Here you go Bro. I had a Set up for the CSL, but I did it a while back, I saw this thread, and decided to refine her a bit and drop them here for you. Hope they help, she corners like on rails (And Im not just saying that, Im serious) these and many more at www.gt4tuneshop.com :crazy:

Hope you like em

BMW M3 CSL 03

__________ (Race)
SR________9.8/7.9
RH________77/80
SB_________3/4
SRB________6/8
CA________2.6/1.9
TA_________ 0/0
ST__________6/2

LSD
IT__________17
Acel________38
Decel_______22

Breaks______4/2

Gears
1st___________3.842
2nd___________2.384
3rd___________1.720
4th___________1.324
5th___________0.046
6th___________0.846
Final_________3.463
Auto___________16

NoS_______User-pref

ASM over______0
ASM under_____0
TCS___________4

Settings by Rac3rX :crazy:

As for Parts, I install everything, if there is a Supercharger or a Turbo as an option; I use the one with greater hp, UNLESS stated otherwise.

With all my settings the downforce should be adjusted according to the track, as well as the Tires, get oil changes as often as possible, as the cars engine will loose hp that you can’t regain if you prolong the change. In some tracks the banks will be on a steep angle, slight increases to the Camber can be made to improve handling in the banked turns.

With all my settings I leave the ASM “Over-steer”, & “Under-steer” at 0, but theses are adjustable to your own preference, and to what YOU are comfortable with.

With all my settings, when setting the gears, you must always go in the following order; Auto, Then the Final, then individual gear settings if posted.

Enjoy!
 
I use weird bound and rebound setting because I dont believe that this game models the physics of a real life correctly. Real cars have lower bound and higher rebound generally because the bound stroke dampens the unsprung mass during compresion and the rebound dampens the much larger sprung mass during expansion. I used funky shocks setting in many of my cars.

But I could be wrong. I just go with whatever damper setting makes the car feel lively too me.

I like all the different settings posted.

I haven't played this game much lately, too busy working, just picked it up again for the first time in weeks and am loving it.
 
hey if u guys get a normal m3 and put the csl settings on it and it will beat the normal m3 csl. then put it up to the 330i and it will kill it.
 
I tested M-Spec's suggested settings on my modded (500 hp) M3 with the only real alts being ride height (my M3 can't get as low as the CSL, so I ended with 88f / 96r) and the fact that I chose to use brake balancing to bias the brakes slightly to the front (5f / 3r).

Fabulous results! I'm getting seconds in handfuls off my lap times! Needless to say that the car is vastly easier to drive. I can correct my problems holding the line at all speeds and the odd catch of the curb doesn't automatically spell doom.

Jaberwocky's point about the shock values being suspect in the game in general does seem to have some validity. At least in some cars, religiously following the game recommendations (e.g., bound vs. rebound ratios) doesn't seem neccesarily to yield the best results.

Thanks again to you all.

spring rates: 7.8 / 8.8
ride height: 88 / 96
bound: 7 / 9
rebound: 8 / 6
camber: 3.2 / 1.8
toe 0 / -1
stabilizers: 4 / 5
LSD: 20 / 60 / 30
brakes: 5 / 3

~Keith
 
Keith S
I tested M-Spec's suggested settings on my modded (500 hp) M3 with the only real alts being ride height (my M3 can't get as low as the CSL, so I ended with 88f / 96r) and the fact that I chose to use brake balancing to bias the brakes slightly to the front (5f / 3r).

Fabulous results! I'm getting seconds in handfuls off my lap times! Needless to say that the car is vastly easier to drive. I can correct my problems holding the line at all speeds and the odd catch of the curb doesn't automatically spell doom.

Jaberwocky's point about the shock values being suspect in the game in general does seem to have some validity. At least in some cars, religiously following the game recommendations (e.g., bound vs. rebound ratios) doesn't seem neccesarily to yield the best results.

Thanks again to you all.

spring rates: 7.8 / 8.8
ride height: 88 / 96
bound: 7 / 9
rebound: 8 / 6
camber: 3.2 / 1.8
toe 0 / -1
stabilizers: 4 / 5
LSD: 20 / 60 / 30
brakes: 5 / 3

~Keith
Click to expand...



Have you tried my set up yet?

If not It would be cool if you could try it out to have a comparison :dopey:
 
Rac3rX
Here you go Bro. I had a Set up for the CSL, but I did it a while back, I saw this thread, and decided to refine her a bit and drop them here for you. Hope they help, she corners like on rails (And Im not just saying that, Im serious) these and many more at www.gt4tuneshop.com :crazy:

Hope you like em

BMW M3 CSL 03

__________ (Race)
SR________9.8/7.9
RH________77/80
SB_________3/4
SRB________6/8
CA________2.6/1.9
TA_________ 0/0
ST__________6/2

LSD
IT__________17
Acel________38
Decel_______22

Breaks______4/2

Gears
1st___________3.842
2nd___________2.384
3rd___________1.720
4th___________1.324
5th___________0.046
6th___________0.846
Final_________3.463
Auto___________16

NoS_______User-pref

ASM over______0
ASM under_____0
TCS___________4

Settings by Rac3rX :crazy:

As for Parts, I install everything, if there is a Supercharger or a Turbo as an option; I use the one with greater hp, UNLESS stated otherwise.

With all my settings the downforce should be adjusted according to the track, as well as the Tires, get oil changes as often as possible, as the cars engine will loose hp that you can’t regain if you prolong the change. In some tracks the banks will be on a steep angle, slight increases to the Camber can be made to improve handling in the banked turns.

With all my settings I leave the ASM “Over-steer”, & “Under-steer” at 0, but theses are adjustable to your own preference, and to what YOU are comfortable with.

With all my settings, when setting the gears, you must always go in the following order; Auto, Then the Final, then individual gear settings if posted.

Enjoy!
Click to expand...


Anybody try this set up yet, I got a 6:33:XXX at the ring with it first lap first try.

Im not the fastest driver Im sure, but it was a breeze and the car was stable the whole way.

Tell me what you think. :)
 
Hey Rac3rX,

Didn't mean to leave you out of my thanks. I tried M-Spec's setup first and it was golden. I will try yours as well, I'm sure it's everything you've said. Thanks!

Meanwhile, I won the M3 GTR Race Car which is just sick and wrong! I love it.

~Keith
 
Keith S
Hey Rac3rX,

Didn't mean to leave you out of my thanks. I tried M-Spec's setup first and it was golden. I will try yours as well, I'm sure it's everything you've said. Thanks!

Meanwhile, I won the M3 GTR Race Car which is just sick and wrong! I love it.

~Keith
Click to expand...

Hey no worries Bro, Let me know what you think :sly:


Rac3rX :crazy: (I just love that smillie)
 

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