Problems with 'Initiating the drift'

Just a quick background. I am relatively new to GT4 and never owned a racing game before this one except Extreme-G64. But I turned out to be a grip driver. I eventually pushed my '94 Nissan Skyline GT-R V-spec II (R32) with stock power and few mods other than racing brakes and a clutch to win some nifty 200 A-spec point races in several professional races. It was all about the cornering because the computer destroyed me at the starts and straightaways. I didn't really know what the points meant, but it was pretty obvious that more points meant that you were challenging yourself harder. I was so satisfied with my progress in just a month, that I started with my other favorite car.

If you guessed from my first car, just like many other GT4 players, I am an Initial D fan. So I waited until I finally got me the yellow '91 Mazda RX-7 Type R (FD, J). I was ok at grip driving with it, but I could not keep up in the same races as my Skyline with stock power. I was disappointed. So I thought, "Well... I lose a lot of time on the tight hairpin turns... so let's try drifting as a solution..."

Of course, I didn't really understand tuning and the driver aids that were in play, so needless to say I was unsuccessful for a whole month. I gave up for a short while and then I found this site and turned them damn aids off and got me some N3 tires. But still not much success over the next two weeks of practice.

Oddly enough, I think my throttle control and countersteering are surprisingly effective. Every so often during a corner's mid-turn, I'll run over a different surface or the striped curbs and my car will go gaga, but I recover really well and end up using this to a great advantage, especially during a linking corner. I have almost completely stopped spinning out (as long as another car didn't whack me). I also have successfully applied pumping/less throttle to help me navigate tighter corners and strong/full throttle to really stretch my drift to travel long distances sideways. Counter-steering throughout and straightening the car at the exit swiftly with max RPM's always felt natural and extremely easy to intuit for me. So far,... decent progress in that area.

But I'll be damned if I can initiate the drift on my own. "Huh?! How can you improve the second and third part of drifting if you can't start the first part?!" Well, as explained before, sometimes different surfaces or painted stripes or an initial car bump during a turn will put me in a full sideways drift. I honestly feel like I got my mid turn control and exiting down to a decent level. But my turn-in is just horrible. I have tried the Mazda RX-7 Drift Settings Journal tuning specs to help me, but I am still having little success with the turn-in. I watch the videos and read the threads and the initial turn-in seems easy as pie... but I can't do it.

In fact, the only successful method I can use consistently is the 'power oversteer.' Steer, fully apply the acceleration, let the rear spin out and voila, you're sideways with your nose pointed at the corner! But it only seems to help me for really slow speed turn-ins, mid-drifts and linking corners. I just downright suck with brake and lift-off.

I've tried analyzing it and it appears that I initially oversteer, but end up understeering. In other words, I can shift the weight forward and kick out my rear end to a certain degree, but my front tires lose grip shortly afterwards and I cannot keep the line, go careening forward and miss the turn completely. This happens frequently when I try entering short corners or hairpins at 50+ mph. So then I tried compensating in two directions. First, I make a slower entry, but my rear tires never lose grip to ever get sideways. I've tried lifting off to initiate drift, and then braking to slow down and navigate at the start of the corner, but all that ends up doing is allowing my rear tires to regain grip control and I lose the drift before getting close to the halfway point of the corner. To help further illustrate, the B license test with the rally car was so easy for me because the turn-in was effortless. The mid-turn control and exit came so naturally it was a joke.

Did you guys encounter this problem also when learning how to drift and how did you overcome it? If you need more details, I will do my best to describe further. I've looked at the Drift FAQ by Swift and Boundary, multiple help-me threads and Bryan C's In-Depth guide, but many of these guides point out that getting your car sideways is easy and that mid-turn control and exiting is the difficult thing to establish. I am completely opposite. I really need help. I mean... over two weeks and I haven't initiated a drifting turn-in outside of 'power oversteering!' Is my focus completely wrong? Is my intuition just not kicking in whatsoever? Am I mixing up terms like mid-turn and junk?

you can practice with a stock car on N1's and try like another car, use like a FC

We could all give you a technical Explanation on how to Initiate Oversteer. But that's only theory. You need to put all the Information you gather into practise, or practical.

From all the Information it seems uve read. Is basically most of the knowledge us members obtain, so unless your looking for some miracle explanation that will make you drift perfect.
Practice would be your best bet.

For braking drifts, use higher front brake bias (for example F24 R12), it'll help you transfer all the weight to the front and unload the rear tire so you can easily break them loose. The way I initiate most of the drifts are handbrake, it's the most effective way to to it, and pro drifters (in real life) use handbrake all the time to initiate drifts.

Holy good god. Not five minutes after posting my desperate plea for help, I actually did it. Yellow '91 Mazda RX-7 Type R (FD, J), complete stock car with the exception of racing brakes set at 4-front and 9-rear. I even had default S-2 tires because I wanted to start from scratch.

90 degree left hand turn, I took an outside line after passing the computer on a straightaway, I really didn't know how to approach that turn because I've failed like 30 times today, so I just panicked and decided to feint w/brake to initiate the drift. I approach at full throttle 90 mph, a slight shift right, with a full hard turn left, immediately followed with a full press on the brakes for a second to slow down to 67 mph. The drift itself had initiated almost from the beginning of my brake application with my nose pointed at the corner and my nose came within feet of the inner part of the guardrail as I passed the apex at 60 mph with zero brakes and zero throttle. After the apex, I hit full throttle with the slightest countersteer and flew along the most beautiful latter half line I have experienced at near 56-60 mph, I withdrew the countersteer naturally, regained grip on all four tires and let my revved RPM's take me to an instant exit speed of 70+.

I can't believe its taken me this long to initiate a brake drift properly ONCE. Watching it on replay, it is literally the epitome of a perfect line from start to finish for that 90 degree turn. I'm guessing it was the proper line + the proper entry speed + the feint + the perfect application of braking power that allowed it. Just going over every single detail was intimidating. I still can't recall even from looking at the replay when I exactly stopped my hard turn left... I had no idea from your guides that it would take this long JUST to get lucky. Warning to other beginners... 2 weeks can go by without a single properly initiated brake/liftoff drift. Now I have to work on finding a general proper drift line. Then finding that particular line's optimal entry speed. Too much or too little speed has to be the problem I've been facing with the lines I'm taking. I think I've been focusing too much on weight-shifting and rear grip loss and started ignoring proper lines and accompanying proper entry speeds... I'm upset that its going to take so long, but I'll be damn satisfied once I start getting it consistently.

I need a beer. That drift was better than sex.

nos2

For braking drifts, use higher front brake bias (for example F24 R12), it'll help you transfer all the weight to the front and unload the rear tire so you can easily break them loose. The way I initiate most of the drifts are handbrake, it's the most effective way to to it, and pro drifters (in real life) use handbrake all the time to initiate drifts.

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Can't say I agree with any of that lol..

By far the easiest way to learn (IMO, of course) is feint drift. I was in exactly the same predicament when I learned... I felt early on that my throttle control and exits were acceptable, but I couldn't initiate drifts at all... Try a feint, quickly followed by a short stab at the brakes OR throttle after you've turned in, depending on whether you're want to slow down or keep the speed up. You should also be ready to countersteer just as you make the wheels slip.

Something that was sort of a revelation to me is when I learned that I should countersteer a lot earlier than I though.. as a matter of fact, that initial countersteer is what will give you angle to start with.

So, a quick breakdown of what worked for me for starters (I hope you'll understand ):
0. Start earlier than you think
1. Feint
2. Tap the brake if needed, to shift weight forward
3. Turn in quickly
4. Stab the throttle and countersteer pretty hard almost at the same time.
5. Decrease the countersteer slightly and lower the throttle to balance your car (this part is very much about practice). Try to keep the angles low at first, or you'll either stall, snap or spin.

Using the brakes to get angle was a bit harder for me, and I don't think learning with the e-brake will help you much personally.

As for cars and settings: I'd suggest either a Nismo 270R or an early FD RX7 for starters... or even a Renault Clio V6. All those have beautifully set up stock suspension, and all they need is a custom gearbox (maybe a power upgrade for the FD and Clio). I'd also use N1 or N2 tires.. I find N3s to be a little harder to drift with, and may be better used for semi-sideways racing. A lot of the settings you'll find here are more focused on mid-drift control, so they're a bit harder to initiate. You could try My first FD settings, those were made when I was learning.. and should provide a LOT of turn-in response and ease of use, if I recall correctly.

If you want to try brake drift, I'd suggest a brake balance of 3/12 as a starting point. Softer rear suspension and lower LSD decel will also help making this technique more effective. Countersteering a little extra while braking will also increase your angle more.

Why is it that everyone seem to be sacrificing grip and control just so they can pull off a drift? I am having problems initiating the drift myself, so I came here looking for some settings. But just about all the settings I see, they're all either different tires for the front and rear, the crappy Economy tires, or changing the brake settings to be stronger at the front. This will not help me win in a real race (I don't play against computers much). Doesn't anyone know how to drift without having to gimp their car?

Who says we use drifting techniques for racing?

Point taken. But, I do, and that's because my friends are drift freaks. Except they're gimping their cars just so they can drift, which won't work for me. I still have no idea how I'm supposed to initiate a drift, without having to use the hand brake.

You won't get too far drifting during races, unless your in front (sort of a psychological effect, meaning your in a slide -> Making opponent think your almost out of control, they slow down.), are in a tight track so that you cover your line, or you just feel like being a cocky bastard .
These are the only times I would personally "Drift race".

There are ways of using lift-off oversteer to initiate a drift, but that involves heavy turn in and high speed.

Me and my friends are all cocky bastards. So tell me, master, how would I go about doing this?

Well it depends, do you guys race cautiously or destruction derby style?

Cautiously. We try to avoid bumping into each other as much as possible.

Ok, on certain turns (90 degree turns, some short hook turns) You feint slightly to the right, then turn back in heavy, while turning in dab the brakes then throttle accordingly. I would advise to keep your angle as low as possible, because you would want to keep some speed to carry yourself through. Cover the fastest line on the turn (Usually the inside line) because your opponent will want to overtake on the inside.

They usually won't go to the outside, but if they do, they're taking the slower line. When you exit the turn, try to minimize the wheel spin because you will lose some valuable speed, and you don't want that.

Well, I've been trying to pull off a feint drift, and I've only done it a few times. Still, the times I pulled it off was pretty shaky and rather ungraceful. I've actually been doing what you said the whole time, so maybe it has something to do with my car's settings?

I'm driving a Subaru IMPREZA Sedan WRX STi sp.C, if that has any bearing.

Ske

Can't say I agree with any of that lol..

By far the easiest way to learn (IMO, of course) is feint drift. I was in exactly the same predicament when I learned... I felt early on that my throttle control and exits were acceptable, but I couldn't initiate drifts at all... Try a feint, quickly followed by a short stab at the brakes OR throttle after you've turned in, depending on whether you're want to slow down or keep the speed up. You should also be ready to countersteer just as you make the wheels slip.

Something that was sort of a revelation to me is when I learned that I should countersteer a lot earlier than I though.. as a matter of fact, that initial countersteer is what will give you angle to start with.

So, a quick breakdown of what worked for me for starters (I hope you'll understand ):
0. Start earlier than you think
1. Feint
2. Tap the brake if needed, to shift weight forward
3. Turn in quickly
4. Stab the throttle and countersteer pretty hard almost at the same time.
5. Decrease the countersteer slightly and lower the throttle to balance your car (this part is very much about practice). Try to keep the angles low at first, or you'll either stall, snap or spin.

Using the brakes to get angle was a bit harder for me, and I don't think learning with the e-brake will help you much personally.

As for cars and settings: I'd suggest either a Nismo 270R or an early FD RX7 for starters... or even a Renault Clio V6. All those have beautifully set up stock suspension, and all they need is a custom gearbox (maybe a power upgrade for the FD and Clio). I'd also use N1 or N2 tires.. I find N3s to be a little harder to drift with, and may be better used for semi-sideways racing. A lot of the settings you'll find here are more focused on mid-drift control, so they're a bit harder to initiate. You could try My first FD settings, those were made when I was learning.. and should provide a LOT of turn-in response and ease of use, if I recall correctly.

If you want to try brake drift, I'd suggest a brake balance of 3/12 as a starting point. Softer rear suspension and lower LSD decel will also help making this technique more effective. Countersteering a little extra while braking will also increase your angle more.

Click to expand...

I have to disagree. Feint drifts are the hardest and most advanced drifts to do. I started out drifting doing braking drifts and then now I moved to using more handbrake drifts (for style reasons). As for the brake settings, the front biased brake settings will help transfer more weight to the front, and that's the point of braking drift. OneDumbG0, I guess you'll have to try it out and see what works for you.

Ske

Something that was sort of a revelation to me is when I learned that I should countersteer a lot earlier than I though.. as a matter of fact, that initial countersteer is what will give you angle to start with.

So, a quick breakdown of what worked for me for starters (I hope you'll understand ):
0. Start earlier than you think
1. Feint
2. Tap the brake if needed, to shift weight forward
3. Turn in quickly
4. Stab the throttle and countersteer pretty hard almost at the same time.
5. Decrease the countersteer slightly and lower the throttle to balance your car (this part is very much about practice). Try to keep the angles low at first, or you'll either stall, snap or spin.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. I'll also take a look at your settings. They should translate pretty well to my own RX-7. I am a bit sketchy on the early counter-steer suggestion, I did in fact countersteer almost immediately after initiating that one drift but not drastically. But it can't hurt to try and I'll try anything to get better.

I do have a general question though. I know that if I want to maintain a decent pace, I shouldn't drift every turn and try to use it mainly as a supplement to my grip driving. With some tight hairpins off a long straightaway, 'power oversteer' has certainly shaved some time off for me. But do I have to sacrifice my racing time with N class tires? I hate them altogether. They really make grip driving harder than I thought they would. I actually accomplished that first drift of mine with S2 tires. So, here's my question... "Is it feasible to continue practicing drifts with them or maybe even S1 tires?" As a counterpoint, am I underestimating N-class tires altogether? Maybe my management of shifting weight laterally is so poor that I should stick with them until I can race at the same pace as if I had S-2 tires? Suggestions?

EDIT: Nos2, I appreciate your suggestions, but are you sure about your brake balances? Within the game itself, it states that if you set the rear brakes stronger it will induce more oversteer. When you highlight the rear brake settings, thats what the moving blurb says at the bottom...

N tyres if you want to do it for fun / showing off.

S tyres if you want to drift/grip, but a word of advice, don't expect angles you would get with N tyres without a huge sacrifice in speed.

MdnIte

N tyres if you want to do it for fun / showing off.

S tyres if you want to drift/grip, but a word of advice, don't expect angles you would get with N tyres without a huge sacrifice in speed.

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Guess N tires do suck,... bah humbug!

nos2

I have to disagree. Feint drifts are the hardest and most advanced drifts to do.

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Certainly not, its slower and makes for an easy entry.

NO!, N Tyres are the suggested tyres to do exhibition drift.

Sports tyres can be used for, Racing Drift its a different style.

Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses.

Lift-Off Oversteer: Approach a turn from the outside, while turning in towards the apex heavily, let off the gas then get back on it straight away. This is usually trial and error, where you either understeer or oversteer. Practice will get your timing right.

Mazda Rx7 RX-7 GT-X (Fc, J)1990
parts: refresh the chasis
Racing exhuast
sports chip
N2's tires
Stage 1 turbine kit
racing brakes
racing suspension
full customize transmission
triple plate
racing flywheel
carbon drive shaft
full limited slip
Settings:
spring rate: 2.6/2.6
ride height:110/110
shock bound : 2/2
rebound:4/4
camber angle: 3.5/3.5
toe angle: 0/0
stabilizers:1/1
LSD:
Initial Torque:15
Limited slip acceleratior:10
Limitied slip accelerator:11

MdnIte

Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses.

Lift-Off Oversteer: Approach a turn from the outside, while turning in towards the apex heavily, let off the gas then get back on it straight away. This is usually trial and error, where you either understeer or oversteer. Practice will get your timing right.

Click to expand...

Hmm. I always assumed you had to shift your weight forward first before turning. Or at least at the same time... Are you suggesting that I turn in and then lift off the gas? And do you personally find lift-off or braking friendlier for initial d?

And on another note... do you guys generally agree that using N3 tires will foster quicker initial drift technique? I may be more comfortable with S2 tires and their grip, but if it'll be quicker to jump in the cold water to get acclimated, I'll do it. I know eventually I'm going to have to adjust back to S-class tires because grip driving and even high speed steadiness get compromised by the lack of grip in N3 tires.

If its not terribly important, I was also thinking, since it took me 2 weeks to get one initial d down, I was thinking of taking my time and running with S2 tires and then tweaking each setting one at a time to get a better understanding of how they work and how they affect my driving style. Has anybody done this and if so, in what order did you tweak your settings? Even if you haven't done this entirely one at a time,... in your opinion, "What are your 3 most important things to adjust after braking balance?" I mean, I'm going to have to learn to tune my suspension and LSD for my '94 Nissan Skyline GT-R eventually, so I may learn a thing or two while I'm figuring out how to drift. If not, maybe I'll post my trials and results for future reference.

Lift-off and braking in Initial D are easier because ID is an arcade game. I don't play it so I wouldn't really understand.

Initial D is way different... try this... GO WATCH THE DRIFT BIBLE

MdnIte

Lift-off and braking in Initial D are easier because ID is an arcade game. I don't play it so I wouldn't really understand.

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Nononononono. I am an Initial D fanboy, but I thought I could save some typing by abbreviating drift into 'd!' Bah... I won't make that same mistake again...

Anyway, please read my questions one more time with that in mind. What I'm really asking about is whether it is generally easier to find your line and entry speed with lift-off or with braking... The 'initial d' I was referring to was supposed to stand for the initial drift before the apex of the turn which is the area I'm having problems in. Thanks for the advice so far guys!

BTW, I'd still like to know about your order of tuning... I've been reading M-Spec's fantastic pocket guide, but its kinda hard to take it all in at once. I could use some dummy advice to help me intuit, like, "Learn to adjust your spring rates and camber angle before LSD, nimrod!"

I wasn't threatening you or anything

Ok I understand what your saying. At this point, I find it easier to lift-off, because I brake poorly (understeer :-| )/. A drift line isn't that much different from a racing line, the only difference being that you turn in MUCH more aggresively than you would in a racing line.

My order of tuning is 2-way LSD, Stiffness, Camber, Camber Angle, the stabilizers.

Go one by one on each of these things, steadily changing the values (cept the 2-way LSD. duh) Until you feel that the car is too your liking. But once your driving the car around, it's your skills that should be the determining factor. The settings are merely there to complement your style.

OneDumbG0

And on another note... do you guys generally agree that using N3 tires will foster quicker initial drift technique? I may be more comfortable with S2 tires and their grip, but if it'll be quicker to jump in the cold water to get acclimated, I'll do it. I know eventually I'm going to have to adjust back to S-class tires because grip driving and even high speed steadiness get compromised by the lack of grip in N3 tires.

If its not terribly important, I was also thinking, since it took me 2 weeks to get one initial d down, I was thinking of taking my time and running with S2 tires and then tweaking each setting one at a time to get a better understanding of how they work and how they affect my driving style. Has anybody done this and if so, in what order did you tweak your settings? Even if you haven't done this entirely one at a time,... in your opinion, "What are your 3 most important things to adjust after braking balance?" I mean, I'm going to have to learn to tune my suspension and LSD for my '94 Nissan Skyline GT-R eventually, so I may learn a thing or two while I'm figuring out how to drift. If not, maybe I'll post my trials and results for future reference.

Click to expand...

Personally I think N3s are too grippy to drift, maybe viable with a very powerful car doing power overs, but not a good choice for learning. I'd learn on N1s/N2s actually. If you try S tired for drifting, I understand you're having a lot of problems though.. I really can't help there but say again don't use em Once you've mastered the technique you could go grippier and apply your techniques.

The first things I'll adjust in a drift car is (after tires, brakes and aids):
- Spring Rate (soften the rear a bit)
- Stabilizers (I usually start with 2/1 or something)
- LSD Decel (I usually set this at 10)

different cars do different things. With AWD its not uncommon to use the handbrake when initiating or straightening out a drift. With almost all FR cars though, you just turn away from the turn, let go of the gas (or brake, depending on how easily the car turns) and then turn sharply in the direction you want to go.
Once you know that, all you need to practice is, the speed at which you enter certain turns, how soon you initiate the drift before you go into the turn, what line you're going to take to make it through the turn at a high enough speed without going off the track, and continuing and exiting through the turn without over or understeering.
If you're race drifting, I suggest harder tires, like super soft racing, or hard sports, but again that depends on what car you're using, since some naturally slide much easier than others.
One last thing, if you're using an FR car, dont try to get lots of angle with it, you'll spin out extremely easily. Get some settings from the settings depot for your car, and practice.