Learn physics with extreme, body roll angle

+ is toe in, - is toe out
I found this when playing around with memory editor (PEC). I found the address for toe setting in setup screen, its 8016E922 and 8016E923 for PAL version (8016E8F2 and 8016E8F3 for NTSC ver 1.2). The default value is 128/128 for 0.00/0.00 toe setting. By assigning 0 to those address will get us -6.40 toe, assigning 255 will get us +6.35 toe.


If we assign 254 for front toe, we will get +6.30:



We can see from the image that the + toe make the front wheel looks like this / \.

If we assign 2 value for rear toe, we will get -6.30


The rear wheels look like this \ /.

Later I will post the toe effect on acceleration and highspeed stability (maybe in here or in side by side thread), but when driving with -6.40 or +6.35, I CAN NOT turn the car when the speed reach 200kmph. I can only make the car turn (slightly) when the speed is bellow 100kmph.

I don't know if this had been posted before.

Most stock car already has LSD installed
The car that do not have LSD installed is usually K car.
this is the config in stock Nissan Micra SR:


installing 1 Way LSD:


installing 2 Way LSD:


installing 1.5 Way LSD:


installing Full LSD:



Installing LSD upgrade on other car will give the same number, trust me . Although the value will be reverse in FR car.
Like 1.5 Way LSD on NSX will give LSD: 0/0/0 - 6/36/16

other car stock LSD value (all new car):
Audi S4 : 1/16/6 - 0/0/0
BMW 328Ci : 0/0/0 - 1/16/6
Civic Type R : 1/16/6 - 0/0/0
Corvette grand : 0/0/0 - 2/16/11
Viper RT/10 : 0/0/0 - 2/16/11
Elise 190 : 0/0/0 - 2/16/11
Esprit 350 : 0/0/0 - 2/16/11
Honda Life : 0/0/0 - 0/0/0
Mitsu Lancer Evo 6 : 0/14/4 - 26/0/0
Nissan Primera : 46/26/0 - 0/0/0
Skyline R34 : 6/36/16 - 0/0/0
RUF BTR2 : 0/0/0 - 2/16/11
Silvia Type S : 0/0/0 - 0/14/4
Supra RZ : 0/0/0 - 1/16/6

Handling test using extreme setting on Lotus Elise 190
Using extreme setting, I try to experiment the car handling. The test track is High speed ring.

Stock:
Spring Rate : 3.3/4.2
Ride Height : 135/135
Damper : 1/1
Camber : 0.0/0.0
Toe : 0.00/0.00
Stabilizer : 1/1

Impression:
the car feel slight oversteer on high speed, easily drifting with little steering movement.

Testing 25.4/25.4 spring rate, impression:
the steering become more sensitif, the car will turn hastily, the car feels have more grip

Testing 0.1/0.1 spring rate, impression:
the steering become less responsive, driving become easier, the rear feels have less grip.

Testing 25.4/0.1 spring rate, impression:
the car feels oversteer, with many rear slide happen.

Testing 0.1/25.4 spring rate, impression:
the car become more neutral, rear slide is more controllable, less likely to happen.

Testing 254/254 ride height, impression:
the car feels more oversteer, with the inside wheel sometimes lifting.

Testing 30/30 ride height, impression:
the car feels less oversteer on highspeed, but the oversteer is still strong on low speed.

Testing 30/254 ride height, impression:
the car feels very oversteer, will spin easily, feels more faster.

Testing 254/30 ride height, impression:
the car feels understeer, has very slow acceleration and top speed compared to above setting.

Testing 254/254 damper, impression:
the car feels has less grip

Testing 25.4/25.4 camber, impression:
the car feels has less grip and very slow

Testing -3.00/0.00 toe \ /, impression:
the car steering response is quick but understeer more

Testing +3.00/0.00 toe / \, impression:
the car steering response is slow but oversteer more

Testing 0.00/-3.00 toe \ /, impression:
the car wandering around on straight, it will turn it self to the left when the road is banking to the left, but the car do not feels oversteer, just feel turning is easier with the rear do not slide more.

Testing 0.00/+3.00 toe / \, impression:
the car also wandering around but only a little, the rear slide more, but can be easily controlled, making long drift is easier, the drift angle is bigger.

Testing 254/254 stabilizer, impression:
less body roll?

Testing 254/1 stabilizer, impression:
feels little more understeer

Testing 1/254 stabilizer, impression:
feels little more oversteer


Verification
Verifying the knowledge on Viper RT/10 using non hybrid setting
stock:
Spring Rate : 3.6/3.2
Ride Height : 127/127
Damper : 1/1
Camber : 0.0/0.0
Toe : 0.00/0.00
Stabilizer : 1/1

the car feels oversteer, the rear easily slide but can be controlled. feel understeer on highspeed.
diagnose:
need less front spring or higher rear
the rear toe is too +, use -
need more ride height, but ride height is max replaced with + front toe.

result:
still not enough, the rear still sliding,
need to increase the rear grip, trying to use max spring rate for rear

result:
still not enough, the rear still sliding,
try using - toe for front

result:
the rear still sliding, but the car become understeer
give up.


Verifying the knowledge on Honda Accord SiR-T '98 using non hybrid setting
stock:
Spring Rate : 4.2/2.5
Ride Height : 155/155
Damper : 1/1
Camber : 0.0/0.0
Toe : 0.00/0.00
Stabilizer : 1/1

the car understeer at high speed
try increasing the front spring rate more.
it become too oversteer on low speed
try replacing it with lower the front height
ok
try replacing it with negative rear toe
ok, but like the previous better


Verifying the knowledge on Honda NSX '90 using non hybrid setting
stock:
Spring Rate : 3.2/3.8
Ride Height : 135/135
Damper : 1/1
Camber : 0.0/0.0
Toe : 0.00/0.00
Stabilizer : 1/1

the car oversteer with some controllable rear sliding
try using + toe, and reducing front spring rate
it works.

This test is very subjective, it can be wrong or different, so, what is your step by step procedure to tuning your car everyone?

So that settles it. All this time, I thought the manual was right about the toe issue. Meanwhile, negative toe means your front tires are pointing OUTWARD not inward. How retarded. That's so wrong man.

There's a lot of info here, I'll check it out when I have more time. Looks interesting.

ok, now to replicated this for GT3 and GT4 j/k

VIPFREAK

ok, now to replicated this for GT3 and GT4 j/k

Click to expand...

Nice idea, but it seems the GT4 people in this forum do not have gameshark...............
As the GT4 user guide mention + is toe out, it would be interesting to know if the mistakes carry on ...............
The only clue that I have is picture from Scaff. I stitch the picture into one.

The - toe value shot is a bit to the outside, so the rear car body shows more.

sucahyo

Nice idea, but it seems the GT4 people in this forum do not have gameshark...............
As the GT4 user guide mention + is toe out, it would be interesting to knowif the mistakes carry on ...............

Click to expand...

I do. but it's ok, I'm not technical enough to use any of this for my own good.

And I am not good enough to verify my own tuning ............

sucahyo

And I am not good enough to verify my own tuning ............

Click to expand...

wEll, proper tuning comes with time. It's an intuitive thing. You'll get it. ¬

The reason I do so many test is because I get inpatient

You got more patients than me...

Downforce effect on cornering
324 hp stock Mitsubishi 3000 GT VR4 Turbo 97 + racing mods on super speedway

front/rear = slow corner, fast corner, recorded top speed
00.1/00.1 = 170kmph, 207kmph, 238kmph
25.4/25.4 = 205kmph,205kmph,218kmph

614 hp stock Mitsubishi 3000 GT VR4 Turbo 97 + racing mods on super speedway
00.1/00.1 = 170kmph, 207kmph, 274kmph
25.4/25.4 = 205kmph, 238kmph, 266kmph

the car feels more sensitive when using high downforce

614 hp stock Mitsubishi 3000 GT VR4 Turbo 97 + racing mods on super speedway
using 1/254 ride height
00.1/00.1 = 170kmph, 207kmph, 288kmph

So, using ride height do not affect downforce, but it will allow the car to reach the top speed faster.

614 hp stock Mitsubishi 3000 GT VR4 Turbo 97 + racing mods on super speedway
using 20.0/20.0 spring rate (other suspension in stock)
00.1/00.1 = 180kmph, 215kmph, 266kmph

using spring rate increase cornering speed, this will need more testing.

Spring rate effect on cornering
Hard spring rate increase cornering grip

The car
With the help of computer driver, I can get a stable lap time . So this make testing cornering possible. The track still Super Speedway. The car using 472hp, 1710kg 3000GT VR-4 Turbo with:
custom suspension
normal tire
racing brake
brake controller
stock gear
triple clutch
carbon driveshaft
racing flywheel
stage 2 turbo kit
racing intercooler
racing muffler
custom LSD
ASCC
TCSC
no weight reduction

Spring - 2.0/2.0
Height - 96/96
D Bound - 1/1
Rebound - 1/1
Camber - 0.0/0.0
Toe - 0.00/0.00
Stabilizer - 1/1

Gear : Stock

Downforce : stock = 0.15/0.25
LSD : 1/1/1 1/1/1
ASCC : 1 (stock: 2)
TCSC : 1 (stock: 2)
Tire : Normal

The test
Using 2.0/2.0 spring rate.


Notice the lap time, the computer lap time is consistent in 0.1 seconds.

Using 20.0/20.0 spring rate.


Using hard spring rate seems to increase the cornering grip, the cornering speed (first image) is higher 20/20 spring rate has better speed.The turning capability (second image) also higher 20/20 spring rate has more distance from the wall.

Camber effect on cornering
Same with previous, the AI driver do the hardwork .

Using 0.0/0.0 camber


Using 1.0/0.5 camber


Using 2.0/1.0 camber


Using 3.0/1.5 camber


Using 4.0/2.0 camber


Using 5.0/2.5 camber


Using 6.0/3.0 camber


Using 12.0/10.0 camber


Conclusion:
Using few camber do not make noticable increase in cornering speed. But using too much (in this case, more than 4) will slows the cornering speed. The camber value will be less in harder spring or higher stabilizer or lower ride height or lower car weight or etc.......

What the computer opponent use
I am curious that some people say computer is using normal tire, so using super soft tire will give us big advantage.

Tuned NA no 1, race 2
It seems the computer use super soft tire, because with my fully tuned default setting spoon integra driven by AI, the opponent spoon integra manage to keep up.



Manufacturer event
On standard race, it seems the computer car use stock car. The car is stock, normal tire.


On race mod race, the computer also use almost stock car. The car is race modified + triple clutch + racing flywheel, normal tire.



Japanese championship, midfield, 197hp
The computer seems to use normal tire. 160hp Az1 is too much even when using normal tire.



GT300, race 1
The computer use super soft tire, only with super soft my MR2 can keep up with opponent MR2.

It's always been my theory that in many races, the sim cars are on normal tires, and the computer makes up for the lack of grip by using walls as well as smacking into YOU at times to gain corner advantages. It's also been my theory that the computer uses slicks in some of the tougher races like the GT300, World Cup, Laguna Seca and Rome enduros, etc. so it's cool to see some confirmation on this. You might also want to check the mid-rear races at Red Rock and High Speed Ring. The MR cars in these always seemed unusually stable to me on those high banks.

As I get further into GT3, I'm finding this is somewhat true here as well, but in some of the Amateur 5-lap races, the cars are obviously on medium-slick tires to get the maximum ratio of grip + endurance. Try using medium tires, and you'll be going red by lap 4 or 5. Try using slick tires, and by the end of the race, they'll just be turning yellow.

Parnelli Bone

It's always been my theory that in many races, the sim cars are on normal tires, and the computer makes up for the lack of grip by using walls as well as smacking into YOU at times to gain corner advantages. It's also been my theory that the computer uses slicks in some of the tougher races like the GT300, World Cup, Laguna Seca and Rome enduros, etc. so it's cool to see some confirmation on this. You might also want to check the mid-rear races at Red Rock and High Speed Ring. The MR cars in these always seemed unusually stable to me on those high banks.

Click to expand...

I have to use sport tire in midship race 2, because using normal tire will make my zz-s coupe left behind by opponent's car on straight. On race 3, using normal tire can still make my Venturi GT400 faster than the opponent's car. Both car is fully modified, except the tire.

Easy code to increase power
Someone may already know this code, but I never see it. Fit stage 4 turbo on NA car, fit stage 3 NA on turbo car. This work on setup screen before you race.
0 = not equiped
1..x = fitness

PAL Code:
80170074 - suspension
80170076 - brake
80170078 - bbc
8017007a - front tire
8017007c - rear tire
80170080 - gear
80170082 - clutch
80170084 - flywheel
80170086 - carbon shaft
80170088 - chip
8017008a - polish
8017008c - engine
8017008e - NA tune up
80170090 - displacement
80170092 - turbo
80170094 - intercooler
80170096 - muffler
80170098 - weight reduction
8017009A - racing modify
8017009C - ascc
8017009e - tcsc
801700a0 - differential

With this code I try to equip stage 3 NA + stage 4 turbo on R34, this result in 2WD like behaviour from R34 and wheel spin in 5th gear..........:




And I found the reason why no one want a high powered FF (stage 4 turbo Accord), get understeer badly when you push the throttle ............. :

Hey you should try and see if Bound and Rebound dampers really get stiffer with higher numbers..or is the opposite true like I've seen some people say on the 'net. In other words, is a damper softer when it's at 1 or 10?

Parnelli Bone

Hey you should try and see if Bound and REbound dampers really get stiffer with higher numbers..or is the opposite true like i've seen some people say on the 'net. In other words, is a damper softer when it's at 1 or 10?

Click to expand...

Ok, I will try that for my next test. My current test is about reducing jump, it should answer a little, but to be sure I will test bound and rebound individually.

Reducing re-jump
Small car in seattle uphill will jump around,


so what is the best method to reduce the jump?

Test car: 266hp Opti Club Sport 4WD '97.
spec : spring rate f/r - bound damper f/r - rebound damper f/r - downforce f/r

Reference:
20/20 - 1/1 - 1/1 - 0.10/0.16






Reduced spring rate:
11/11 - 1/1 - 1/1 - 0.10/0.16






Increased bound damper:
20/20 - 10/10 - 1/1 - 0.10/0.16






Increased rebound damper:
20/20 - 1/1 - 10/10 - 0.10/0.16






Increased downforce:
20/20 - 1/1 - 1/1 - 0.37/0.62







Conclusion
On 20/20 spring rate opti club is jumpy. It will jump again after landing (I call this rejump). Different suspension setting affect the rejump.


Reducing spring rate is the best way to reduce rejump,


more bound damper will make the car easier to rejump,


more rebound damper make the car less likely to rejump but it transfer the force to other wheel,


more downforce can reduce rejump.



Rank based on my easiest to drive feeling:
1. Less spring rate
2. More downforce
3. More rebound damping
4. Reference
5. More bound damping


Feel free to give comment.............

Parnelli Bone

is a damper softer when it's at 1 or 10?

Click to expand...

Damper value 255 is softer than 1
I think if 255 is softer, than 10 is also softer than 1. Based on my understanding, I assume that if the damper is weaker, then the car will be bouncing non stop.
I assume that 1 is softer than 10 before .................
First I do the test using 20/20 spring rate, but it is very hard to see the difference.
So I use 2/2 spring rate,


and it show clearly, with just braking is enough to make the car bouncing non stop:



It shows more obvious in video

So, I was wrong again, 10 damper is actually softer than 1 .............
This will encourage me to use 1 damper value more............

I remember in GT1 I did an experiment one day...I put all my dampers on 1, removed the stabilizers (you can do this in GT1...they can be purchased separately) so that in theory, only the springs were left to support the car. It was pretty wild. I went around Deep Forest....I think I was in a Miata, which bounced over and over and over thru those turns! I mean, it was up on 2 wheels ...bounce bounce bounce. In GT2, they didn't get this part right.

Also in GT1, if you lower some cars all the way and boost spring rates, they'll actually LOSE speed because the bottom starts dragging on the ground. Again, they axed this in GT2 for some reason. I've noticed in GT3, some cars create sparks on the ground as they fly up the Seattle Staircase if they're too low.

Parnelli Bone

I remeber in gT1 i did an experiment one day...i put all my dampers on 1, removed the stabilizers (you can do this in GT1...they can be purchased seperately) so that in theory, only the springs were left to support the car. It was pretty wild. I went around Deep Forest....i think i was in a Miata, which bounced over and over and over thru those turns! I mean, it was up on 2 wheels ...bounce bounce bounce. In GT2, they didn't get this part right.

Click to expand...

What spring rate did you use, hard or soft? Did the bounce continue when stopping?
I ask because GT2 will also do that, if you use hard spring and damper 1, the car will also bounce all over the place.
I can't tell the difference when using 255 bound damper or 1 bound damper on 20/20 spring on this experiment, because the car keep bouncing ...........

Parnelli Bone

Also in GT1, if you lower some cars all the way and boost spring rates, they'll actually LOSE speed because the bottom starts dragging on the ground. Again, they axed this in gT2 for some reason. I've noticed in GT3, some cars create sparks on the ground as they fly up the “Seattle Staircase” if they're too low.

Click to expand...

It seems there are bottoming out in GT2, but it "help" us instead of dragging us.


This car should be bouncing endlessly, but with the help of car bottoming, it managed to be stable after jumping. The speed seems not reducing.

No, you don't get what I'm saying. In GT1 the car kept bouncing thru turns ON 2 WHEELS. It was way more noticeable than in GT2. And no, the car didn't keep bouncing after I stopped. Tell you what, I'll fire up my GT1 disc tonite (if I can find it) and let you know exactly what happens. I don't remember what spring rates I used in my test.

And also, when I say lowering a car in GT1 makes it lose speed, it REALLY makes it lose speed. Even at a track like Trail Mountain, when you go over those bumps & in turns, a car that is too low will shudder like an angry cat.

Parnelli Bone

No, you don't get what i'm saying. In GT1 the car kept bouncing thru turns ON 2 WHEELS. It was way more noticeable than in GT2. And no, the car didn't keep bouncing after i stopped.

Click to expand...

You are right !
The damper 1 is softer than 10 in GT1 !, so this makes GT2 damper tuning reverse of GT1 damper tuning !
Damper 255 in GT2 is equal to damper 0 (memory) in GT1, but damper 1 in GT2 seems close to damper 100 (memory) in GT1.


GT1 PAL
800BB624, 800BB631 = ride height
800BB625, 800BB632 = spring rate front/rear
800BB626-29, 800BB633-6 = damper front/rear

single damper value in GT1 is actually stored as 4 number, with value of 10 represent 48, 73, 180, 222 (I don't know why it's so many)

1 2 3 8 9 10
------------------------------------------
30 32 34 44 46 48
46 49 52 67 70 73
18 36 54 144 162 180
24 46 68 178 200 222



With 0.1/0.1 spring rate, 255/255 ride height, and in memory damper 1/1/1/1 1/1/1/1 (abormal value), the car bounce endlessly:


glanza bouncing video


The car shuddering seems to happens when using 10/10 damper, if we use 1/1 damper the car seems go along trial mountain smoothly. (0.1/0.1 spring rate, 34/34 ride height). And I think this is not caused by car bottoming.

Damper 1:

using damper 1 video

Damper 10

using damper 10 video
The speed is lower ..................

And BTW, the GT1 spring rate is too hard for me to enjoy even on lowest setting 👎 ......

Wow. What a total BLAST FROM THE PAST that was! I fired up my GT1 disc today after not touching it for over a year and a half. It was like a brand-new game...I even forgot what the menu sound effects sound like! That brought back memories. Looks like I'm gonna be the next one to drag up that GT1 Memories thread in the GT1 forum...

Anyways, it was real interesting..lots of stuff I forgot. The car graphics in GT2 seem smoother and a little less cartoonish, even if they are not as consistent; but the OVERALL graphics of GT1 (background scenery included) are definitely better. There seems to be less pop-up and pixellation. I even watched my very first replay of a race, which I saved from a Nissan Silvia at High Speed Ring. I won this race, but (unlike now) I bashed a couple cars to get there.

So I bought a Miata, got a racing suspension for it, and took it to the Autumn Ring Spot Race. And sure enough, memory served me well (I smoked a lot more unmentionables back in 2003-2004). I raised the Miata to 140 mm, kept the spring rates stock, and lowered the dampers all the way to 1...and sure enough, every time I hit one of those curbs or took a corner too fast, my car would bounce bounce bounce. Very cool.

Now back to GT3 for me....

Yes, thing like this make us want to go back to the past , I play GT1 again for some hour ...........

Me too. I'm so tempted to go back to GT1 but I already have such a busy schedule with GT2 & 3...

If I go back to GT1 now, I may never make it to GT4!! But yeah, even tho everything looks crummy and there isn't much car variety in GT1, I still feel that temptation. I love the "make or break" qualifying sessions. I did a couple of those and my palms were actually starting to sweat a little! I don't feel that pressure in other GT games, know what I mean?

Opponent in rally driver is human, because AI is too stupid
I suspect this because my B-spec driver is get left behind too much in every dirt race.


So I force the opponent to use computer driver too.
Auto pilot 1 to 6, fill with 1
800A9E6A
800AA9AA
800AB4EA
800AC02A
800ACB6A
800AD6AA

And the result is, the opponent become as dumb as my b-spec driver:


Last image show how the AI turn into the wall, this is happens on almost every dirt track. So, don't be surprise if this happens on other track too...........

So, the opponent driver has to be human, I never see my b-spec driver do drifting like opponent do ...................