those driving aids..

  • Thread starter Thread starter darkblu
  • 43 comments
  • 2,008 views
Messages
70
ok, as i've been unable to find another discussin on this tipic (though i have the feeling it's out there somewhere as people have surely bumped into this before) i'll go straight ahead and ask:

how do you manage you cars' driving aids?

up unitl recenly that was a non-issue for me, i'd leave those on their defaults and be done with it. i was feeling somehow confident PD could not have overdone them..

well, i don't feel so confident about that anymore. so now i'm on a quest to fix that as far as i can. and a natural problem arises - it may be crystal clear that a '64 car could not have any driving aids, but that's by far not the case with more recent cars, so one can't just indiscriminantly go around and turn the aids off on all cars.

so, again, how do you guys manage your cars' driving aids so that those would resemble the car's real-life characteristics?

i, for one, am at a loss here.


ed: oops, turns out i did the wrong search the first time around - plenty of driving aids discussions. so let me try to make this thread of some use. here's a suggestion: how about we opening a database of known driving aids setups of GT4 cars that match as closly as possible the corresponding models in real-life? apparenly some models would without any hesitation qualify as aid-less - e.g. all classic cars, so no need of documenting those.
 
well, although it's some sort of a solution, i don't think it works if you're after RL realism - plenty of road cars have TCS in RL. many racers too. i still think that producing a database would be useful.
 
don't get me wrong - i'm not saying turing aids off is not fun. for example, my 197BHP ginetta is a freaking drift machine (naturally my lap times took a minor hit from going no aids but they'll catch up with time) - and that's how it should be with this car. but i know that for instance BMW have had a TCS for quite some time now, and i'm willing to bet the other big road cars' manufactures have had theirs too. and i'm not sure you could switch those off at a button press IRL. so driving a '05 BMW with TCS at 0 in the game is, well, just not right.
 
I think this has nothing to do with realism per say, I think PD put Driving aids in the game like they are (way over done) so that Novice drivers could enjoy the game and make it easier to play, and then as they get better they can slowly remove them and get better times, now personally I turn them off all the time no matter what the car, even if its the Speed 12, the nI try and make the car better with gears and suspentions and all the other mods that can be done.
 
yes, i'd say that the opposite is true - the way PD have done it, now turning the aids down has to do with realism :) unfortunately in many cases it's not a true/false scenario, and since we're talking the 'sim' aspec of the game here (i.e. fun/non-fun aside) we can't just neglect that some cars have actual driving aids systems IRL. some of them firmly integrated within the car's control mechanisms. so you may claim an M5 with TCS@0 is some 'custom-built' car, but you'd never be able to claim it's a stock car, no matter how well everything else in the car's behaviour has been modelled, as usually any driving aids effect is non-negligible.

..unless what you're saying is that a car which IRL does have a TCS actually behaves at the right RL TCS levels when you set its in-game TCS to 0? IOW, that all in-game TCS is artificial, and comes as extra to what the car has IRL.
 
..unless what you're saying is that a car which IRL does have a TCS actually behaves at the right RL TCS levels when you set its in-game TCS to 0? IOW, that all in-game TCS is artificial, and comes as extra to what the car has IRL.

I personally think this may be the case in some respects, I think that the settings that all cars are set to is way too high compared to the actual settings of cars using DA, and the settings set to lower numbers say 2,2 & 4 may be more like what the real car has, who knows? What ever PD were thinking with the DA makes the cars in GT4 Slower, you have to remember its still a game and not real life. Just to add this point, PD also make all cars use sports tyres and not road tyres so you could argue the turning off of the TCS based on this asumption. if PD wanted to make it just like the read car they would have used Road tyres and not sports for most of the cars.
 
What's your opinion on the Tuscan Speed 6? I turned all the DAs off, because that's what people keep posting on this forum (and it works well in a lot of cases) and the car turned into a understeer nightmare....shouldn't this car be 'drivable' stock form without DAs?
 
iLex
What's your opinion on the Tuscan Speed 6? I turned all the DAs off, because that's what people keep posting on this forum (and it works well in a lot of cases) and the car turned into a understeer nightmare....shouldn't this car be 'drivable' stock form without DAs?

Yeh I totally agree, when I tuned the SP6 for the tuning comp having no TCS turned it into an understeering mess, but with the right tweaking it can be sorted, but this just adds to the mess that is DA in the GT series, I think that PD need to review the way in which the TCS is used, maybe to the point of cars that dont use it in any way dont have it, and those that have it do, but a level that is close to the RL car.

Turning off the DA fully dosnt always suit a particualt car SP6 a case in point, but who actually says you have to have them tuned off? Its just down to prefrence, based on driving style, if you find a car easier to drive with them on then have them on, but always try both options before making up your mind, you may find a sweet spot in-between.
 
darkblu
we can't just neglect that some cars have actual driving aids systems IRL. some of them firmly integrated within the car's control mechanisms. so you may claim an M5 with TCS@0 is some 'custom-built' car, but you'd never be able to claim it's a stock car,

The slight problem with this comment is that the majority of cars fitted with traction or stability software are able to be switched off.

The M5 is actually a good example of a car in which traction and stability control can be switched off or it GT4 terms 'set to zero'.

Granted a number of manufacturers do not give you this option (e.g. Daimler Chrysler), but they are in the minority; and even in these cases it should be remembered that just the absence of an actual on/off switch. Most of these systems are reliant in the cars software set-up, and as any main dealer can access a lot of these functions they can be easily over-ridden (at the expence of your warranty).

Regards

Scaff
 
sprite
Turning off the DA fully dosnt always suit a particualt car SP6 a case in point, but who actually says you have to have them tuned off?

Well that's an interesting thing. When everybody says turning them off makes the game more fun, then I want to try that. I have some cars on which I turned the aids back on because the car would handle poorly, but in this particular case (the Tuscan Speed 6) I thought the car would have to handle very well without aids.....too bad :ouch:
 
sprite
Just to add this point, PD also make all cars use sports tyres and not road tyres so you could argue the turning off of the TCS based on this asumption. if PD wanted to make it just like the read car they would have used Road tyres and not sports for most of the cars.

well, actually the sports tyres i can understand - it's a sports driving game after all, most of the time you'd want to have sports tyres. an if you really want to you can always slap on regulars. which by far is not the case with DA - it's not like there's a 'known good state' of a car's DA settings that would correspond to the car's RL DA settings, given the car actually has DA in real life. of course for the cases when the car has zilch DA in RL - surely DA@0 in the game should match.

again, here the easiest/best possible scenario would be if PD added all their DA on top of what the car has to provide IRL, so setting DA to 0 on every car would produce the best possible simulation. alas we get cases like the SP6 - so the question iLex raised stands - is that car similarly drivable IRL as it is with DA@0 in GT4? and if it's more drivable IRL than in-game it'd mean we have a simulation problem - namely that IRL-DA-equipped cars don't have their DA characteristics modelled by default in the game. and from there on it's all player's trial-and-error to fix that.

yes, i know it's all a game. but there's also this strong simulation aspect to it. and for me, personally, drivability is an essential part of the simulation. so if a car turns easily IRL - it'd better turn easily in-game.

ed: please, don't take the above for a rant - it's much more of an 'what needs to be done, and why' rambling.


Scaff
The slight problem with this comment is that the majority of cars fitted with traction or stability software are able to be switched off.

The M5 is actually a good example of a car in which traction and stability control can be switched off or it GT4 terms 'set to zero'.

Granted a number of manufacturers do not give you this option (e.g. Daimler Chrysler), but they are in the minority; and even in these cases it should be remembered that just the absence of an actual on/off switch. Most of these systems are reliant in the cars software set-up, and as any main dealer can access a lot of these functions they can be easily over-ridden (at the expence of your warranty).

yes, what you say is all valid, Scaff, but still the question remains - what does one need to do to get the IRL-corresponding DA settings of a car in GT4? un-tuned, un-tambered with, unmodified. so far the only answer i can see to that is - trial and error. hence the use for a DA settings database ; )
 
darkblu
yes, what you say is all valid, Scaff, but still the question remains - what does one need to do to get the IRL-corresponding DA settings of a car in GT4? un-tuned, un-tambered with, unmodified. so far the only naswer i can see to that is - trial and error. hence the use for a settings database ; )

Trial and error would be just about the only option and even then its subjective (how would you know what setting is right without driving the real life car), very difficult to say that a database with even vaguely accurate info could ever be put together.

Thats before considering that the stability systems vary quite a bit across manufacturers as to how the actually operate on the car.

Regards

Scaff
 
Scaff
Trial and error would be just about the only option and even then its subjective (how would you know what setting is right without driving the real life car), very difficult to say that a database with even vaguely accurate info could ever be put together.

well, you said it yourself - it takes RL-based input. from somebody qualified enough to tell the difference.

Thats before considering that the stability systems vary quite a bit across manufacturers as to how they actually operate on the car.

fair enough. but as much as we care about the behavioral aspect above everything else, as long as something can be approximated to a degree when it becomes better (read: more truthful) with the approximation that without it, i personally would not care so much if a brakes-induced TCS is used to model a differential-induced one.

ed: until we have any reasonable feedback on RL TCS, though, i'll be setting all my cars' DA to 0 ; )
 
darkblu
ed: until we have any reasonable feedback on RL TCS, though, i'll be setting all my cars' DA to 0 ; )

I wont be doing that to the Tuscan, I'm afraid... :)

I've been thinking about this some more and imo there are three simplified situations possible. These might all aply to the game for different cars in different situations (just an idea, no rant :) )
1. GT4 car without DA simulates RL car with RL DA
GT4 DA is for novice players. GT4 cannot simulate RL car without RL DA
2. GT4 car without DA simulates RL car without RL DA
Simulating RL DA requires tuning of the settings (or default settings simulate RL DA)
3. GT4 car with DA simulates RL car without RL DA.
In other words: GT DA makes up for flaws in simulation (as discussed somewhere else on this forum, can't remember where).
Overdoing DA GT simulates RL car with RL DA (option?)

Of course GT4 doesn't offer perfect simulation (why make GT5 then :) ), so where it says simulates I mean simulates as best as possible.
Point 2 and 3 suggest that the simulation is not necessarily better when DA is set to '0', but it really depends on the car and the choice of the driver to simulate RL DA or not.

That's out of my head then....
 
iLex
What's your opinion on the Tuscan Speed 6? I turned all the DAs off, because that's what people keep posting on this forum (and it works well in a lot of cases) and the car turned into a understeer nightmare....shouldn't this car be 'drivable' stock form without DAs?
It is, it's incredibly fast without driving aids, your probably just braking too far into the turn, or braking too hard. Don't try to go as fast you possibly can, go slow in fast out, start off slower than you think you need to go and get a feel for the car. The TVR's grip like anything when thery bite, but you need the bite before the power. Get the hang of the car and the fact that it's different to drive than say an S2000 and you can go very fast in a Tuscan.
 
iLex
1. GT4 car without DA simulates RL car with RL DA
GT4 DA is for novice players. GT4 cannot simulate RL car without RL DA
2. GT4 car without DA simulates RL car without RL DA
Simulating RL DA requires tuning of the settings (or default settings simulate RL DA)
3. GT4 car with DA simulates RL car without RL DA.
In other words: GT DA makes up for flaws in simulation (as discussed somewhere else on this forum, can't remember where).
Overdoing DA GT simulates RL car with RL DA (option?)

i totally agree with your break-down. i, for one, am inclined to think it's mostly a case of the 3rd option, and the fact that many of the cars have ended up way too steerable results from some serious overdoing of their DA.
 
The point live4speed has made is interesting and actually suggests that (in this particular case?) point 1 is correct. DAs are for 'novice' drivers. I've been playing GT4 for quite some time now (58% or so) and I'm not a novice driver, but I haven't had much experience with cars that drive like the Tuscan and I'm not very good at handling those cars.
If IRL the Tuscan is an understeer monster and you must be a (very) good driver to take it onto a track, then DP have done a great job simulating that behaviour.


Thanks live4speed, I'll try driving the Tuscan the way you suggest and maybe, one day, I'll come to love it...;)
 
I think that this is missing the point altogether. This is a game and there are lots of people playing it from experts to total noobs.

Im going to use a 4WD car as my case study the car im using is the "Impreza sedan WRX STi spec C" from the manufactures cars. I will do the oil change and buy "Road Tyres" (N3) seeing as I am menat to be simulating the real world and the track I will use is "Deep Forest Raceway" I will do four runs like this.

1) N3 tyres - DA on
2) N3 tyres - DA off
3) S2 tyres - DA on
4) S2 tyres - DA off

The reason behind this car is because It has a large amount of TCS compared to ther cars in GT4

they are

Driving Aids
-ASM Oversteer: 10
-ASM Understeer: 10
-TCS: 7

Then I will see which is fastest and the better to drive, what i hope to prove from this is that Driving aids only come into play if you only in use with road tryes (seeing as most cars come with road tyres)

test runs

1) N3 tyres - DA on - 1'29.781
2) N3 tyres - DA off - 1'30.346
3) S2 tyres - DA on - 1'26.279
4) S2 tyres - DA off - 1'26.077

And my theory is proved true, what if PD wanted the DA to be used in conjuction with Road tyres? and as soon as you switch to sports or racing tyres you dont need them, the last run actually had and mistake by me too so it could have been faster.

At the end of the day it all boils down to which gives you faster times and helps you drive a clean lap, if its realism your going for then maybe the only way to achive it fully is actually get a car and rive around tracks in RL not in a game, PD can only go so far to provide us with a game that not only feels good to play but also makes it fun enough for new comers to actually stick with it and give PD a huge fan base.

Just to add this, do any of you guys who are actually complaining about the realism (this is not to criticise your valid questions), but do you actually have the simulation handeling turned on and do you use a DFP or DF wheel? if not then how can you say this isnt a real thing in GT4 when you havent done this? Also my dad actually has all DA on all the time no matter what the car, and he enjoys playing the game just as much as I do. And also dont the 18** daimler carrage cars have TCS? did they even have it in those days? if not :D why has PD given it to them?

edit.

even PD recomends you buy road tyres when buying new cars, they tell you at the bottom of the screen.
 
sprite
I think that this is missing the point altogether. This is a game and there are lots of people playing it from experts to total noobs.

Nobody is saying that it isn't a game and I like to make clear that for me too the most important thing is to have fun. But GT4 is also meant to simulate car handling etc. as best as possible. This thread is only meant to discuss the DA and how it's compared to RL DA. Why are the DAs there and when do you reach maximum software simulation (regardless of hardware, e.g. a DFP or a complete car cabine)? Even when using a DS2, reaching maximum software simulation adds to the fun of the game. For example: I am excited to go and tame the Tuscan after live4speed's post, this will give me a lot of gaming time trying to achieve something... If I was certain that I was trying to tame a car that is only simulated well when all DAs are applied I would apply those. (maybe I'm a loony....)
In the end the simulation is part of what makes the game fun for me. Otherwise I would go out and buy me a copy of 'The Need for Speed'.
It's a bit like playing a soccer game. There is no input device that will give you the ultimate soccer experience, but it is nice to play a soccer game as you would see it on TV, same with GT4.
Your point on the DFP is of course a good point. To reach total maximum simulation, You would need a DFP, but that's beyond this thread (at least for me).

sprite
And my theory is proved true

Well, not really. It takes a bit more than single run lap times to prove a point like this. You'll have to drive more laps, so you have more data. The fact that you made a driving error in the last lap shows this. I am interested in the results though!
I don't really get the point your trying to prove. If the DAs are only meant to work for N# tires, then what do they simulate? Do they simulate the cars DAs ONLY with N# tires? In other words: You can't simulate an M3 on S# tires with DAs in GT4?
The other thing is that the DAs are 'intelligent'. They only act when a particular situation occurs. TCS for example reacts to the tires loosing grip. When your car has S2 tires, you generally have more grip so TCS doesn't have to work as often as with N3 tires. This might be the cause of the differences in lap times.

sprite
you guys who are actually complaining about the realism
It's questioning the realism and trying to achieve a higher grade of realism. I think the questions raised in this thread are valid and nobody is just complaining...
Ok, To be honest, my question about the Tuscan was a bit complaining, but live4speed cleared that issue up :)

sprite
And also dont the 18** daimler carrage cars have TCS? did they even have it in those days? if not why has PD given it to them?
That's another valid question for this thread :) Of course this particular car doesn't need DAs anyway, but for other cars that don't have DAs IRL this is a good point.

ed: sorry for the massive post
 
iLex, I'd agree with you on the most part, but there are certainly cars that go undoubtably faster WITH aids on. Again, I will refer to the FGT. With aids ON, my lap times are on average 1-3 seconds faster (:scared:), than with them off. For one to say that aids are for "novice" players, is a vastly innacurate statment. IT IS car dependant, so the rule of 👍 is to test with and without them to establish what works best with the car.

👍 Good test, sprite.

PS: iLex, your post is not big, believe me! :scared:

FormulaGT
 
At the end of the day though, good enough use of the throttle and brakes will yeald better results than letting driving aids do the job for you. Sure I use them on some races, it just makes it easier to preserve your tyre's in some cars on the endurance race. But without the driving aids on, you have more control over the car, this is a fact. It's just a question of how you use that extra control. You can go faster, or you can go slower depending on ability to control the car, though in my experience, it is a lot harder with the pad than with the wheel, since with the wheel it's easier to make smaller adjustments.
 
Yeah, I agree. I was just stating that there are some cars that go faster with aids on than with them off. Not conventional, I know, but this is sometimes the case. You do make a good point about that extra control you gain without driving aids though. Some can undoubtably use it better than others:tup:.

FormulaGT
 
FormulaGT
iLex, I'd agree with you on the most part, but there are certainly cars that go undoubtably faster WITH aids on. Again, I will refer to the FGT. With aids ON, my lap times are on average 1-3 seconds faster (:scared:), than with them off. For one to say that aids are for "novice" players, is a vastly innacurate statment. IT IS car dependant, so the rule of 👍 is to test with and without them to establish what works best with the car.

F1 is a typical example of some serious employment of TCS - FIA tried to ban them in '98 just to re-introduce them back in '01. even after the recent draconian updates to F1 regulations TCS is still legid and widely used.

so you're legid with TCS in FGT ; )
 
Back