GT4 vs. GT3- which is better?

Please vote with an explanation.

I vote for not better, just different, because that's what they are.

I love GT3 for its physics, cars are way easier to drive in that game,

But GT4 the physics are more realistic, making the cars more challenging to drive, like how MR cars understeer if you gas it during a corner, and how their trail braking will bite you in the ass if you let go of the throttle. Plus, GT4 is 10x more expansive.

Your pick is....?

I voted for GT4 (for reasons Wolfe and I will almost certainly debate until the cows come home).

Quite a surprise this thread as last night I actually fired up GT3 for the first time in a while (alongside Enthusia and GT4) and I have to say the lack of understeer in GT3 compared to both Enthusia and GT4 shocked me. I'd forgotten how easy it was to drive particularly as the grip levels in GT3 are massive when compared to the other two.

The scope of GT3 comes home as well, particularly how annoying it is to run GT mode time trial on anything but a handful of courses.

Regards

Scaff

THat's what I meant to say by sayinig crs were easier to drive in 3. Few cars understeered.

GT4 is defiantly best. Much more realistic, more cars, better competitions, B-Spec mode is sometimes useful as a money maker for enduros, but the biggest plus has to be photomode!

I am going to run in here - Scream

GT Fooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooore,

And run back out and never look back... Simply because that's the better one IMHO.. And I've had enough psychics talk in the misc. GT3 vs. Mario Kart vs. GT4 vs. Enthusia vs. Pole Position vs. PGR vs. Stunt Car Racer threads to last me a lifetime - But by all means, knock yerself out :-)

(Yes, I wrote psychics on purpose....)

GT4, it's physics are better IMO, it's got the Mitsubishi Evo 8 and best of all it has the Monaro!! (on going thing between me and slider-s15 ) GT3 was starting to look a bit dated, as far as i remember it had a sort of similar menu layout as GT1. by better i mean the physics seem to be much more realistic than before, but i feel that the whole GT series lacks a few key elements, i'm not sure what they all are but i can name some than play most on my mind
1. no skid marks - you get tyre squeal and smoke, but no mark (although i know there aren't always marks left behind) Polyphony Digital made the air brake on the Mclaren Mercedes SLR and Chrysler Crossfire work so why no skid marks.
2. burn outs are difficult to initiate and hold without moving very much, even with frontal brake bias
3. no ability to change colours on a car. if you get bored of your car colour you have to go buy a new car, this is really expensive.
this is probably me just whinging so i'm going to shut up now.

I voted GT4... it's simply better. period.

GT4 to me is just the GT that GT3 should have been.

GT4 for me. Mostly because for some reason i find the racing al ot more enjoyable. Even though the AI is incredibly dodgy i still find it more fun that GT3. Although i do miss SSR11

stinger061

Although i do miss SSR11

Click to expand...

One of the best tracks ever (well, exept Nurgburgring & De La Sarthe on GT4) & I miss it alot.

GT3 because I get to do donuts when I'm break from racing.

GT4 has more cars, which I like, but both GT3 and GT4 physics aren't everything they could be. In all honesty, I have both on my HDD, and I play both.

Colinod

I love GT3 for its physics, cars are way easier to drive in that game

Click to expand...

Honestly, I found the cars in GT3 harder after I tried it ofter a lot of GT4. Got mad and pulled it out after half a lap of GVS. Must be the cars I drive.

I do like the old Grand Valley configuration and it would be cool to still have SSR11. When I first tried GT4, I was also really REALLY suprised at the amound of body roll in some of those cars.

But, GT4 has better graphics, much more stuff & b-spec. Having more stuff makes it more fun to do stuff in arcade mode or practice. B-spec also allows racers to not spend 24 hrs of their life doing each enduro.

All in all, GT4

I voted for GT3 in a heartbeat. Why? The only trump card GT4 holds over GT3 is content.

Sounds? The same. "Career mode" gameplay? The same. Graphics? A bit different, but hardly a leap, and quite obviously based on the same exact engine (along with every other facet of the game, though not to the cookie-cutter extent that GT4 and Tourist Trophy share).

Physics? Well, I'm not going to tell you that GT3 is significantly more realistic than GT4, or that GT3 is the best driving sim for the PS2. Both of those statements are wrong. However, I will say that GT3 was a pretty good sim for its day, and that GT4 was a step backwards. As Scaff noted, GT3's understeer was weak. Laughably weak. You can chalk up most of the problem to the godly tires that the game gives you, which didn't disappear in GT4 -- they were simply shifted "up" to make room for the new variety of "simulation" tires, which are not without their own catastrophic issues.

"What about these issues, then? What plagues GT4 that's so much worse than GT3's happy-fun-time-land with very little understeer?" I'll tell you -- GT4's understanding of weight, inertia, suspension movement, the works...none of it is any different compared to GT3. Still, Polyphony Digital wanted to tweak the game and try to fix some of the problems that the previous game had, so they messed with the one thing that makes or breaks most sims....the tires. In doing so, they completely ruined any shred of realism GT3 may have had, and threw off the game's physics......

In GT3, excess grip was the main culprit in a lack of realism, aside from a flawed steering compensation system (affecting both the Dual Shock 2 and, strangely, the Driving Force wheels) that occasionally worked against you, lifeless suspension movement, and odd wheelspin dynamics. Otherwise, cars cornered, oversteered, understeered (when possible ), rotated, and spun out in ways that resembled real life to a rather impressive degree. At least, for a console game that came out in 2001. When you play the game, it doesn't take long to get "into" it, and it feels rather natural.

In GT4, really bad tire dynamics and an outdated, outclassed physics engine are the main culprits in a lack of realism. Some of the flaws -- like the appallingly weak forward propulsion under straight-line wheelspin -- are carried over from GT3, and the mere fact that they weren't tended to makes them unexcusable. Others are new, like the FWD-like ferocity with which a purely RWD car is able to pull itself out of a massive oversteer situation. That is, of course, if you can even get it into a situation like that, because you literally have to force even the most brutish RWD cars (Shelby Cobra, TVR, etc.) to step the tail out under wheelspin. Left to its own devices, a car will simply travel forward in a straight line under wheelspin, be it FWD or RWD, powerful or weak, open-diff or LSD-equipped. If you throw a car into a corner and mash the throttle or brakes, it'll shrug off your suggestion to launch itself into the nearest ditch and instead just sorta hum along through the corner, perhaps dumping a load of understeer onto your lap if you're going too fast for the corner. Where's the realism in that? On top of all of this, the suspension movement is still lifeless and uncommunicative, the tires are still too grippy (in some ways) to provide realistic laptimes, the game still forces you to shift like a grandma, and it still second-guesses you through a tweaked version of the same steering-compensation system that tarnished GT3's gameplay. Whereas GT3 felt natural and fun, GT4 forces you to struggle just to get the car to do what you want it to do (years of real-world driving experience won't help you, as Tiff Needell proved), and even when you do get the game to do what you want, it isn't fun. Not to me, anyway.

You can criticize GT3 for being too easy all you like, but don't say that GT4 is more realistic just because it's harder.

GT4 is a lot better. It made me a better driver as a result. However, they're different, so I voted the last choice.

I definitely had more fun with GT3 than 4, but 4 does have WAY more content. All in all, I guess I agree with GT4_Rule. They are different.

As for the realist physics thing in those 2 games, I think they are both pretty realistic in their own ways. I haven't played GT3 in over a year, but if I remember correctly, GT3 was better in recreating the real driving. Two things that did impress me in GT4 has been the recreation of understeer and the bumpy, jumpy, like in Nurburgring at high speeds.

I'll have to play the 3 again, but I think I agree with Wolfe.

I have no clue on the realism of the physics, but I will say that GT4 is simply more fun. I just enjoy playing it. The graphics are smoother and more pleasant, the car selection is unparalleled, and (regardless of how realistic any of it is) the cars feel nice and weighty in GT4. These days I don't play GT4 much.

I moved to China a month ago and I don't even have a TV yet, so I set my PS2 up at my girlfriend's apartment where she does have one. I never have time for much driving anymore, but when I do, it's always GT4. Last time, inspired by "The Graduate," I took an Alfa Romeo Spider Duetto out on the Nurburgring on N3 tires. I didn't concern myself with the realism of the physics or beating any other cars or getting a good time... I just drove around and enjoyed myself.

GT3 is far less fun. It feels like a chore to control the car in that game, even if you can toss it around more than in 4. I guess if you really get into the hardcore physics and want to do drifting and stuff, GT3 is the way to go. If you want to mess around with hybrid cars, then go with GT3. But if all you want to do is drive for fun, GT4 can't be beat.

They are both good for different aspects

GT4 - More cars, Better graphics, Photomode, More halls, Second hand cars

GT3 - Layout, Physics, General Fun factor, Also good graphics,

GT3 was the only GT game that I actually found boring to play on, and it was really quite easy. Didn't appreciate the amount of cars either. Still it was a great game. GT4 is possibly too large, 'cause it takes a ****load of time to win all the races. But it has all the cars you could ever need, the secret LM cars, great graphics and is an excellent game, GT4 for me.

GT1 beats all though

GT3:
GT3 was a great game in it's time, surely. It was the first game on the magical PS2, and had amazing graphics, realism, and created a wonderful driving experience.
But there were downsides, such as only 150(ish) cars, and the removal of some tracks left some fans in dismay, the removal of any form of racing modification, and increased racing length left others wandering far from their game disc in fear of racing a 100hp, FF for 45 minutes around a test course at 100mph.
But the downsides, have also been looked at as upsides, such as the racing length, hardcore fans, (such as myself), generally enjoy the longer race length, and removal of a billion 2 and 3 lap sprints. They also enjoyed all the cars featured, and were happy to see some of the slower cars removed, and either didn't like the missing tracks, or simply enjoyed the fresh graphics enough that the sacrifice was worth it.
Physics The physics of GT3 caught many by surprise, from spinning tires up to 90mph in front-wheel drives, to 160+mph burnouts in 1100hp Dodge Vipers. The FF cars understeered far more than in GT1 or GT2, attempting to give off a feel of realism that had been unrivaled by any Gran Turismo title yet to date. However, namely on FF's, the wheelspin was simply to much.

GT4:
GT4 came out with statistics in your face, 650+ cars, up to 100 tracks, including the addition of many real life tracks, including the smash hit Nurburgring, among others. GT4 included most of the cars people liked from GT2, that went missing in GT3, bringing back muscle cars, many FF's, a new form of racing modifications, albeit ugly, a functional one. And all-new classics, all while adding to the already long list of cars, racecars, and even adding some trucks/suv's.
The amount of races in GT4 increased from GT3 about tenfold, even including famous 24hr races on Circuit De La Sarthe, and The Nurburgring Nordschliefe.
The downsides included complaints of horrible AI, massive tirespin, and the inability to race FF vs FR, coupled with overly long races, 3 of which take 24 hours, unless you have B-Spec race them, which still takes 24 hrs, unless you stay with it the whole time, and use the 3x speed mode, which still takes 8 hours. Also included was a 9 hr race, and 8 hr race, a 5 hr race, and a 4 hr race.
Physics GT4 introduced a totally different driving experience than GT3, with more realistic handling, braking, and required feathering of the throttle. The major downside is the amount of wheelspin, or, more specifically, the lack of forward momentum produced by wheelspin, which makes some cars unable to compete with full power, and renders Front-wheel drive virtually useless, against anything other than more Frontwheel drive cars.
GT4 is also the first GT game since GT1, that has had numerous improperly modeled cars, mostly being American, and European. From the Dodge Viper SRT-10's powerband, to the Saleen S7's wheelspin, across the sea to the M3's and Z4's outrageous pricing, among many others.

All-in-all, I'd say GT4 is generally more realistic, given the better driving of all MR's, RR's, and FR's. The 4WD sacrifice is big, being nearly knocked out of competition from rear-drivers, though I must say FF was knocked out of competion already in GT3, for the most part.
And while I can knit-pick GT3's physics to hell, naming most every aspect of driving to be imperfect, the only real problem in GT4 is the forward thrust generated by wheelspin.
The problem is, while GT3 had many small, but significant problems, GT4's single problem is massive, and ruins any chances of really competing in a fair, fun race with front drive cars, unless only racing other front-drivers. And this could be the deal-breaker, if GT3 hadn't already rendered FF's impotent, which means all I lost in GT4 was a small crowd of 4WD's, which I don't care for to much anyway.

I'll take GT4, since FF's have been gone for me since GT2 anyway.

WOLFE

suspension, tires, etc.

Click to expand...

I have a couple of questions for you.
1. How does the suspension not move in GT4? mine does, quite a lot on some cars, most notably the Viper's.

2. Wheelspin - You can't make cars spin out? we must be playing a very different game, or you must simply not be on the edge, because you can spin many cars out, unless, that is, if you're using S2's, than many cars won't do burnouts after 1st gear, but that kinda sounds realistic for a 280HP, RWD car to me.

Oh, and GT3 had N tires, they were just called "simulation".

Deathclown66

I have a couple of questions for you.
1. How does the suspension not move in GT4? mine does, quite a lot on some cars, most notably the Viper's.

Click to expand...

I didn't say it didn't move at all, although it certainly doesn't move enough (aside from the drinking-bird-like nosedive that you can occasionally get from braking in the first-person view, which is appallingly unrealistic).

One of the things I said is that it's "lifeless" -- by that, I mean that the car looks too much like a brick that tilts from side to side, front to back, rather than an object suspended on four independent points by springs. It's a little bit like watching an amateur flash animation that relies too much on the "rotation" and "morph" functions, and doesn't have enough actual frames of animation. Nit-picky? Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that a flash animation that's fully animated and well-done isn't better.

The other is that it's "uncommunicative" -- by that, I mean that the car gives me absolutely no indication of what it's about to do. In Live for Speed and Enthusia, I can observe nuances in the movement of a car's suspension that do a good job of replicating the G-forces and allow me to predict what the car is going to do next. In GT4, the only "nuances" are effects of bumps on the road, which do a great job of enhancing the sense of speed but actually have no effect on your car's direction of travel if you don't touch the joystick/wheel. That even includes one-wheel wheelspin with a 1000+hp car, caused by a bump on the Mulsanne Straight, at over 150mph.

Of course, as I said above, the suspension movement in GT4 isn't drastic enough, either. In GT4, a musclecar from the 1960's is as composed and sharp as a brand-new sportscar, which is rather odd for a heavy and softly-sprung car with a chassis that's about as rigid as a wet noodle.

Deathclown66

2. Wheelspin - You can't make cars spin out? we must be playing a very different game, or you must simply not be on the edge, because you can spin many cars out, unless, that is, if you're using S2's, than many cars won't do burnouts after 1st gear, but that kinda sounds realistic for a 280HP, RWD car to me.

Click to expand...

Naw, spinning out is easy. All you have to do is make an innocent attempt at a drift with the Dual Shock 2. As soon as you countersteer, your front tires will grab the pavement with a ferocity never seen before in any other Gran Turismo game, pulling your car out of the drift with herculean force and -- if your reaction time is even a split-second off -- throwing it into an inescapable spin in the opposite direction. The effect is less pronounced with the Driving Force Pro, but still a factor.

I've spun out many times in GT4 because of this unrealistically-dangerous over-correction phenomenon, but I've never, ever, ever spun out from letting the tail go too far (to clarify, that would mean a clockwise spin in a right-hand corner, or a counter-clockwise spin in a left-hand corner).

In any case, you seem to have misunderstood what I was getting at when I was talking about the Cobra and TVR -- wheelspin has no affect on the lateral motion of a car. You can stomp the throttle and burn your tires until the cows come home, but that won't stop you from travelling in a mathematically-perfect straight line. Even if you tap the joystick or flick the wheel left or right for a moment, your car will often simply change its heading and continue on in another straight line. Hold the stick/wheel to the left or right, and your car will drive in a big, slow, lazy circle as it spins its wheels, makes a lot of noise, and pathetically attempts to "pretend" that it's doing a real donut.

"So what?" most people say. "Doing a donut shouldn't matter, you're supposed to be racing." They aren't looking at the whole picture. If donuts and burnouts are wrong, than how can oversteer or drifting be correct? How can the effects of wheelspin be correctly modelled among the complexities of power-oversteer if the effects of wheelspin aren't correctly modelled in something as stupidly simple as a burnout? Whatever the cause, lateral motion and wheelspin share a completely inaccurate relationship in GT4, and the physics suffer greatly for it.

"So what?" most people continue on. "Drifting shouldn't matter, you're supposed to be racing." They still aren't looking at the whole picture. Let's pretend for a moment that maintaining grip through a corner is like walking on a tightrope. Where's the realism in walking the tightrope if the "rope" is a line of chalk on the pavement, and surrounding the line are two piles of soft, fluffy pillows on either side? Conversely, where's the realism in walking the tightrope if you're forced to do it while wearing an iron suit of armor, with powerful electromagnets on the ground that activate and pull you off of the rope as soon as you even begin to lose your balance? No matter how realistic a driving sim is within the limits of a car's tires, it isn't realistic unless it can accurately recreate the way a car behaves outside of the limits of its tires.



To get back to the topic at hand, I'll repeat my opinion on the issue -- neither GT4 nor GT3 are particularly realistic, but GT3's tire dynamics are a bit closer to reality. That, combined with the fact that I find GT3 many, many times more enjoyable than GT4, is the reason why I voted for GT3.

Deathclown66

Oh, and GT3 had N tires, they were just called "simulation".

Click to expand...

Wolfe2x7

You can chalk up most of the problem to the godly tires that [GT3] gives you, which didn't disappear in GT4 -- they were simply shifted "up" to make room for the new variety of "simulation" tires, which are not without their own catastrophic issues.

Click to expand...

The bolded text meant that GT4's N tires are a new, split-up version of the simulation tires that GT3 already had. I can see how one could mis-read that sentence.

I went with GT3, simply because it's more fun. GT4 is too long to complete, it just gets boring after a while...

And as Wolfe said before, the wheelspin is lazy in GT4, I absolutly agree on Wolfe's post there.

That's what I liked most about GT3, you could really play a crazy guy in your car, which you can't in GT4...

I don't know what people are on about with FF cars - they are pretty much useless against FR, MR and 4WD in real life aswell. Any FF car with more than ~250 bhp becomes pretty uncontrollable - it's the reason why FR and MR were 'invented' iirc. Bringing FF cars to their own field of competition is a good thing imho.

And the wheelspin seems pretty logical to me. You can't expect to hit full throttle in any car with more than 5-6-700 bhp in first gear and expect the tires to grip perfectly. Even R5's can't do that in GT4, and that's all good.

Wolfe2x7

I voted for GT3 in a heartbeat. Why? The only trump card GT4 holds over GT3 is content.

***SNIP***

Click to expand...

Rather than repeat discussions that Wolfe and I have had many, many times over I'm simply going to provide a link to the following thread

Gran Turismo - A Comparison across the series

It covers all the games in the series and looks at the four major drivetrain types, in what I hope is an impartial manner.

Plenty of discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of GT4, particularly in comparison to GT3 are included in the thread.

Regards

Scaff

I enjoy reading thoes discussions, I'm not techinical enough to get deeply involved in them myself though.

GT4 is better, no doubt in my mind. In fact I feel GT3 was a step backwards from GT2; pretty much the only things that were better in GT3 were the graphics, dirt track racing and a user interface that was easier to get around with.

Besides just lots more cars and tracks, GT4 also has a lot more replayability, thanks to A-spec points. It gives you a reason to try out lots of those cars. Plus B-spec, photo mode, etc, etc.

GT3 didn't even have a used car lot. Sheesh.