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A general question...

D3 is the official launch pad for SNAIL.

Instead of renaming D3 "the piñata division" ... would there be any relevance to possibly posting some trial races or lap times/combos so the likely to be D1-drivers who may elect to stay are able to race with their 'peers' instead of getting bored hammering the D3 on their 1-2 week visit? They seem to leave after bashing the D3 crew a time or two, then the next wannabe D1 arrives a week or two later, repeating the slaughter cycle.

I have been trying to race in D3 for several months, and very few times have we really had the vaguest semblance of remotely equal racing.

I just do not see much equality in D3. If the situation above is only resolved with "get better.." (and I am trying), I do not know what to say.
 
Handlebar
A general question...

D3 is the official launch pad for SNAIL.

Instead of renaming D3 "the piñata division" ... would there be any relevance to possibly posting some trial races or lap times/combos so the likely to be D1-drivers who may elect to stay are able to race with their 'peers' instead of getting bored hammering the D3 on their 1-2 week visit? They seem to leave after bashing the D3 crew a time or two, then the next wannabe D1 arrives a week or two later, repeating the slaughter cycle.

I have been trying to race in D3 for several months, and very few times have we really had the vaguest semblance of remotely equal racing.

I just do not see much equality in D3. If the situation above is only resolved with "get better.." (and I am trying), I do not know what to say.
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I brought that up in the past, when i first joined, and was told basically "Its only for a week or 2". But your right, if this is happening every week or or, its no fun for you guys!
 
Handlebar
A general question...

D3 is the official launch pad for SNAIL.

Instead of renaming D3 "the piñata division" ... would there be any relevance to possibly posting some trial races or lap times/combos so the likely to be D1-drivers who may elect to stay are able to race with their 'peers' instead of getting bored hammering the D3 on their 1-2 week visit? They seem to leave after bashing the D3 crew a time or two, then the next wannabe D1 arrives a week or two later, repeating the slaughter cycle.

I have been trying to race in D3 for several months, and very few times have we really had the vaguest semblance of remotely equal racing.

I just do not see much equality in D3. If the situation above is only resolved with "get better.." (and I am trying), I do not know what to say.
Click to expand...

I feel the same way handlebar. There should be some sort of division placement system for new drivers.
 
Maybe we could do a qualification....Just like in some racing series ( 4 lap race only lap 2 and 3 count).You can use a car/track combo from an older round to see where the guy should belong (division).
 
This question has been raised before, and it's a good one, but the answer, invariably, comes back as a negative.

(This post will be no different)


Right now the league is still in an expansion phase, though the actual number racing from week to week isn't actually growing by all that much. If a newcomer is heads and tails above D3, he'll be out of there in a week and giving D2 fits. Often a new, particularly skilled driver needs only two weeks to get to D1. It won't be long, though, before D1 becomes filled to the brim with those "particularly skilled" drivers, and D1 drivers are going to start falling into D2. Suddenly D2 is going to be a faster division than it ever was before, and those of us (me) who are happily entrenched in the middle of the pack in D2 are going to have to start scraping a few seconds off of the track to keep from getting relegated to D3. Obviously, this will cause speed to trickle on into D3, as well. Even further down the road, then, may be a D4.

What I'm trying to say through all of that is that the league, as a whole, is speeding up. There will be new drivers that come in, and some will be obvious D1 material, others some of the slowest we have seen, and many in the middle.

Furthermore, running trial lap times to determine where one starts simply does not work well, as putting up hot laps and racing in a pack are very different situations. Then where do you put them? Do you relegate someone extra because a new guy put up a faster time than them?

Add into that the fact that those in D1 and D2 have worked to get there and stay there. One's rise through the ranks is important in this league. It shows skill, speed, progress, clean racing, and dedication before they jump into D1 and have a go, possibly making a mess of things.

D2 can be frustrating at times, admittedly, when someone is just cruising through on their way to D1, or when someone from D1 is relegated despite really belonging there. With only one promotion spot open to D1, it's a rare week when it's truly open to the field. I imagine D3 is similar.

Despite that, I come back every week itching for the fight. It's an adrenaline rush just knowing that I've got to keep it together or wind up getting relegated!
 
I'm sure Mopar and Miss Devious can come up with a very simple qualifying test for the league similar to what GTP WRS does with the guys submitting times for their GTP tags., 1 combo, 1 test, 3 possible time brackets puts you in 1 of 3 possible divisions to start off. Instead of submitting replays for review and classification, we can have an observed qualifying similar to what the guys in PURE do. Ask for an official to watch, run one out lap, 2 hot laps and 1 exit lap, best hot lap puts you in a division. Keeps D1 types out of D3 making D3 less of a ...what's it call? Pineta?

Edit: didnt' see AP's post before posting
 
There are drivers that should rise to D2, but won't get that chance as long as we are the pinata for new drivers bound for D1. I think starting new drivers in D2 would be easier than doing any sort of time trails or try outs or placements.
 
If the general answer is "keep beating in the folks who are here until they can't take it no more!" then I have to wonder if that is how we enjoy our diversions. My prize money in the bank has not budged. I tried to convert my credits to quarters and almost got incarcerated. (joke for those skimming)

Mind, this is not a personal attack on zer0 or any D1 or D2 drivers.

If the basic idea of starting in D3 is balanced and/or fair, and "great driver" joins your rec league sport (bowling, tiddlywinks, etc), what is the 'fun' or 'fair' answer to the new want-to-join, and the I-am-still-here-and-want-to-learn crowd? There is a bit of 'assumption' on why we are here on that premise, I believe.

No one answer I thought of seems to fit, I just wondered if there was any room for discussion on the process of good or great drivers coming in, and how they fit into SNAIL and our structure,
 
Alrighty, Division 1 results have been finalized. It took some time this week due to a couple of incidents that required the attention of the Stewards. The result of these shook up the podium a bit.

GTP_esh voluntarily gave up 2 points due to a small gain that he received when passing through a ghosted car.

ADR_BRONCO was penalized by 6 points (a disqualification from race 1) due to an incident with another car.

The end result of these adjustments shows M1SS-D3V10US as the winner, GTP_esh in second place, and Mighty_Mopar in third, as the penalty dropped ADR_BRONCO into fourth.

This concludes the review process and the results here are now official. The winners may now claim which prize they wish to have but should wait for zer0's go ahead to choose any cars or tracks.


The Stewards have been discussing over the last couple of weeks a system in which racers who cause other racers to lose positions in an accident may be penalized extra points on top of the disqualification from the race. The details of this have not yet been finalized, though, so it was not used this week. When we finish the plan it will be posted so that it does not come as a surprise to anyone.
 
Apmaddock
Even further down the road, then, may be a D4.
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^^This. There are several potential ways to address this problem with 4 divisions, including some involving a D3a and D3b (just throwing that out there). So it seems to me that SNAIL's growth, painful as it is for D3 now, leads eventually to easier solutions to the difficulties it presents.
 
Apmaddock
The Stewards have been discussing over the last couple of weeks a system in which racers who cause other racers to lose positions in an accident may be penalized extra points on top of the disqualification from the race. The details of this have not yet been finalized, though, so it was not used this week. When we finish the plan it will be posted so that it does not come as a surprise to anyone.
Click to expand...

Project: Win
 
DrKronin
This. There are several potential ways to address this problem with 4 divisions, including some involving a D3a and D3b (just throwing that out there). So it seems to me that SNAIL's growth, painful as it is for D3 now, leads eventually to easier solutions to the difficulties it presents.
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So a new driver arrives. Maybe with some skill. Does he go to... A/b?.., and because...

Adding a third or sixth division does not really answer the question. I may have to rephrase later, I suppose.
 
You're right, Handlebar. It just changes where the problem exists.

Furthermore, what's the point in having an A/B? Doesn't that just alternate your chances of having that driver who's passing through? It may actually make D3 harder since you have to win outright, rather than being able to be promoted for second place. No matter where you are (except D1) this will be a problem, but I still don't like a qualifying idea.
 
Why not just put new drivers in D2 in their first week and from there we find out if they belong on D1, D2 or D3 depending on their performance in that division? I agree with Goat, Handle and others, it just makes that week rather pointless for the slower drivers if there's 2 or 3 new drivers that are heaps and bounds faster than them.
 
Well, one of the ideas I had for a D3a/b is rotating to which new drivers go -- on a 2-week cycle, for example. True, it would probably also require extra churn between it and D2 (read: more relegation), so maybe that particular approach wouldn't work.

I really just meant to make the point that having 4 divisions greatly increases the possible permutations of division configurations. I'm definitely too new here to know which of those configurations would actually work :)
 
Starting drivers I. D2 isn't going to fix the issue. Its just going to move it to d2, which I can promise you, is having the same issues. But, instead of two people able to move up, we only get one slot to move up. I have to agree with Maddock. The system we have isn't perfect. But its the best we can do. Everyone has to start at the same place. The bottom and work their way up the ladder.
 
Perhaps there should be a separate division for new members regardless of skill level, to test performance in actual racing conditions. Then they can move on to the division they belong in without having to work their way through the slower ones.

The problem would then be ensuring there are always enough members in that division for adequate racing. Perhaps drivers would be held there until another driver comes along to take their place. And if there comes a point where very few new drivers are coming along, drivers would be allowed to move to their respective divisions and the n00b division would be unused until more new drivers came along.

Or something to that effect.
 
Good discussion on promotion and relegation 👍

I hear what you're saying and agree with what's been said. There are constantly new people in D3, some on their way to D2 or D1 and that takes potential spots away from someone that's been in D3 and deserves the opportunity to move up.

Very similar situation in D2, with the opportunity to move up limited to one spot. The reasoning behind having one driver promoted and relegated between D1 and D2 was to try and make both divisions more stable. If we'd gone with two drivers promoted each week, we'd turn over pretty much a third to half of D2 every week. We felt that was too much change, after all part of racing involves knowing and being comfortable with your competition.

One thing we could try for D3 is make one of the two promotion slots for a veteran D3 driver, someone that's been in D3 for more than two weeks. The other spot would be for someone that's been in D3 for two weeks or less. If a rookie D3 driver doesn't claim the second spot, it's open to anyone. That way a veteran D3 driver will always be promoted.

Thoughts?
 
I'm going to through in my two cents.

When I joined this leauge , I started in D2. Mind you , this was 1 week before D3 was implemented. It took me 3 weeks to get promoted to D1. After the 2nd week I thought it was going to take a long time before I was promoted to D1 because everyone was pretty good but as luck would have it , Devious offered tutoring for anyone who wanted it. I took her up on her offer and low and behold I was in D1 the next week.

I think what zer0 is trying to do here , correct me if I'm wrong , is to have people with similar driving skills to race with each other by having divisions. If a new driver comes a long and starts in D3 and is really good he will be promoted within a couple/few weeks. That would 🤬 me off also. But what it would also do is to make me practice more and incourage me to do so.

I'm telling all you guys who want to get to D1 or D2 , take Devious up on the tutoring. She can't give you the skills but she can help you harness them to your ability by showing you different lines,braking points and so on. But its up to you how good you are going to be by practicing.But not practicing by yourself but with others.

I think Apmaddock was correct when he said in a earlier post "Furthermore, running trial lap times to determine where one starts simply does not work well, as putting up hot laps and racing in a pack are very different situations. Then where do you put them? Do you relegate someone extra because a new guy put up a faster time than them?"

Qualifing times and pack racing times are not the same. I thought that if I can put down great qualifing times in practice then I could kick some 🤬 come race day. NOT! I think everyone knows you not going to run the same times , I hope. I thought that before tutoring.

I end with this , if a new racer joins the leauge or a current racer ends up getting to D1 , thats great 👍 If so called racer relegates me to D2 , well that would make me happy , believe it or not , because said racer earned it!
Thats why I like this league:). You get to race will people with somewhat the same ability , which in turn makes fun/clean Sunday racing.:):):)
 
kcheeb
Good discussion on promotion and relegation 👍

I hear what you're saying and agree with what's been said. There are constantly new people in D3, some on their way to D2 or D1 and that takes potential spots away from someone that's been in D3 and deserves the opportunity to move up.

Very similar situation in D2, with the opportunity to move up limited to one spot. The reasoning behind having one driver promoted and relegated between D1 and D2 was to try and make both divisions more stable. If we'd gone with two drivers promoted each week, we'd turn over pretty much a third to half of D2 every week. We felt that was too much change, after all part of racing involves knowing and being comfortable with your competition.

One thing we could try for D3 is make one of the two promotion slots for a veteran D3 driver, someone that's been in D3 for more than two weeks. The other spot would be for someone that's been in D3 for two weeks or less. If a rookie D3 driver doesn't claim the second spot, it's open to anyone. That way a veteran D3 driver will always be promoted.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

It seems to me it could be kept very simple by either promoting 2 drivers from D3 every week or have new drivers start in D2. What would the pros and cons of that be? Disclaimer: I am not advocating doing anything. I am "just sayin".
 
Psycho Tuber
It seems to me it could be kept very simple by either promoting 2 drivers from D3 every week or have new drivers start in D2. What would the pros and cons of that be? Disclaimer: I am not advocating doing anything. I am "just sayin".
Click to expand...

We do promote two drivers from D3 every week.

But over the last few months we've had some pretty stellar drivers come through and be promoted, as they should be. That does however take a spot or two from veteran D3 driver(s) that deserve a shot in D2.

Using my proposed solution, if we have two stars join the league the same week, they would be racing each other for one spot in D2. That leaves another spot for the veteran D3 drivers to go toe to toe for. Giving them a chance to get to D2, which is what I think I heard was the issue, not having the opportunity to get to D2.
 

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