◆ SNAIL [Spec] Racing - Currently Recruiting for GT7 - JOIN TODAY!!Open 

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January 5, 2014 lineup
banners by @jobyone


ROUND ONE
Subaru S206 NBR Challenge Package '12
(331HP / PP 478) (Sports Medium tires)
at Deep Forest Raceway / Reverse (7 laps)

S206_DF_R_zps7d2945de.jpg

photo by @DriftinAssassin



ROUND TWO
Ford Mustang Boss 302 '13
(465HP / PP 508) (Sports Soft tires)
at Apricot Hill (7 laps)

Boss302_Apricot_zpsf8889044.jpg

photo by @Worst_Driver



ROUND THREE
Amuse Nismo 380 RS Superlegara
(399HP / PP 510) (Sports Soft tires)
at Suzuka Circuit (5 laps)

380RS_Suzuka_zps8f4c5116.jpg

photo by @Dragonwhisky
 
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Fair enough. But then D1 racers in Blue will then be practicing with different rules than they would for the official race, so it wouldn't be a great practice for them. Also I can say that I did watch replays from Thursday's Blue Room, then went out to practice trying to follow the fastest drivers' lines in Deep Forest Reverse, which resulted in shortcut penalties for me.
This is news to me. I thought the scenario you mentioned earlier was a hypothetical situation if Blue Room were to race with penalties off. I didn't realize that it was already being done like that. I was always under the impression that the Blue Room used standard league settings, just like the Red Room. I'm not sure when they started practicing with penalties off, but I think it makes sense to turn penalties on since many of the drivers in there are not in D1.

I don't really have a strong desire for the policy to be one way or the other, I just wanted to throw an example out there where the difference between penalty rules did confuse me, that's all. :)
And I thank you for doing so. Otherwise, I'm not sure how long it would have taken me to realize that penalties were being turned off for Blue Room practice. If anything, I would assume that practice with multiple divisions would be an ideal time to have penalties on, since the likely hood of ghosting issues is much higher when learning a new track (especially with a wider range of skill on the same track).
 
Personally, I'm not a fan of having penalties on at all. I think it takes the realism out of racing and is a little too inconsistent.

For example, I was practicing this week in a room with the Subaru and spun out in the first turn which caused me to go off track then come back on sideways. A couple seconds later another driver couldn't avoid me and hit me from behind and the game gave me a six second collision penalty which cost me another spot. None of this was anyone's fault and I wasn't too upset since it was practice but it defiantly reminded me how having penalties on can be more of a burden than anything. I also had another problem with a shortcut penalty even though I kept two wheels on the track.

I believe having all penalties off league wide would open up the racing a bit more and make it a bit more exciting. I would hate to see a small tap or terrible shortcut penalty take away from a great battle on the last lap of a race.

I think reviewing the races is enough to make sure that everyone is following rules. If someone witnesses another racer cutting the track, that person can report them and action can be taken or if a steward sees someone breaking the rules in a replay then penalties can be handed out.

I just don't see a point in letting the game police our races for us in an inconsistent way when we can do it ourselves. Just my $0.02
 
This is news to me. I was always under the impression that the Blue Room used standard league settings, just like the Red Room. I'm not sure when they started practicing with penalties off, but I think it makes sense to turn penalties on since many of the drivers in there are not in D1.

And I thank you for doing so. Otherwise, I'm not sure how long it would have taken me to realize that penalties were being turned off for Blue Room practice. If anything, I would assume that practice with multiple divisions would be an ideal time to have penalties on, since the likely hood of ghosting issues is much higher when learning a new track (especially with a wider range of skill on the same track).
Dang. I could be wrong. I just did my best to follow some lines from practice and was penalized. It's entirely possible that my lack of skills caused me to miss too wide. I should have confirmed that penalties were set to off. They may not have been. I'm sorry, I don't want to get anyone in trouble!
 
I had a larger post about penalties here but it really comes down to this:

Pick one setting and apply it to everyone. There is no reason for one group to play with a different set of rules for what is track and what is not than the rest of the league.
 
I would like to get in on the action. Please reply.
@FBR_Steve,
Thanks for your interest!
We would love to have you in the league. Here's what you need to know and do in order to join:

We run a clean league by enforcing a strict penalty system based on the S.N.A.I.L. OLR (which is a modified version of the GTP OLR). We also expect all of our drivers to know and follow The Good Racecraft Guide.
Please become versed in both if you aren't already. Once that is complete, please follow the steps below to complete your entry into the league:

1. You take the S.N.A.I.L. OLR and Racecraft Test

2. You run the Time Trial and submit your information.

3. @kcheeb PM's you with your assigned Division that we feel will give you the closest competition. kcheeb will add you to the drivers list.

4. The Race Director or Primary Host from the corresponding SNAIL Division will send you a PSN friend request. Sunday night you will need to sort the online lobbies by friends and join the lobby named 'snailracing.org Division_1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6' based off your placement from kcheeb. That lobby will be where you race Sunday.

5. You drive fast and clean on Sunday 👍

The original post has everything you need to know about what to expect on Sunday night and what you will need to have completed in order to be competitive. If you have any questions, please feel free to post your question on the thread.

If you have a preference for car/wheel colour and racing number, please follow the instruction contained here.
To avoid duplication, the currently claimed combinations can be found here.

During the week we run a number of different events, we encourage all SNAILs to join as many as possible.

Welcome to S.N.A.I.L. :cheers:
 
I had a larger post about penalties here but it really comes down to this:

Pick one setting and apply it to everyone. There is no reason for one group to play with a different set of rules for what is track and what is not than the rest of the league.

Especially when the 'inconsistent penalty' issue has been replaced by "we don't need no steenkin' penalty" setting (Weak is an understatement, I would call the settings None, Almost Passed Out, and Cluelessly Irrational, imho) and the fresh influx of Steward work compounded by clear violations across all divisions, no matter how lily white and pure we are told their ethics are for all the racers is in that division.
 
Ran my first S.N.A.I.L. event not too long ago, a practice race in the Boss 302 @ Apricot Hill. Didn't do too bad, but think I can get it together for Sunday.
 
It sounds like your objection has more to do with the fact that it's a different setting than what the rest of the league runs, rather than you believing that the setting itself is bad. Can you clarify?

That's only part of my objection. Since I became a steward, I've kind of always been a little surprised by how few incident reports come out of D1. As competitive as most of those guys are, I would have expected different. They have always seemed to be hesitant to bring up questionable behavior on track, for whatever reasons. Why shouldn't they pay for their mistakes the same way every other division's drivers do? Or, are they SNAILs from a different "escargatoire"?

Over the course of my stewarding tenure here at SNAIL, I've witnessed, while watching replays from every division, more cases where the penalty system, via ghosting, have prevented someone's error from becoming a multi-car pile-up, at the worst, or, at the least, ruining one other driver's race, than I have where its contributed to ruining more than one driver's race at a time. While I can't say it's consistent, because I've seen that same penalty system ghost a car for no apparent reason I can discern, it's still better than running penalties off with heavy damage on. From my perspective, if you're going to run the former, you should be using the latter. If you're really after realism anyway.

I've run in a couple series that use those settings and it's pretty much self policing, even though, by the time the policing is done, at least two someone's races are as well. So far as I know, the SNAIL philosophy is to promote clean, close racing and with these penalties off and heavy damage on, that wouldn't be the case for many. I will say this in favor of them though. It might encourage others to be more adamant and diligent in reporting SNAIL OLR infractions.

Imagine, if you will, the following example, 2 drivers competing for a podium finish, hell, it doesn't even have to be a podium, the guy behind brain fades on a brake or turn in point, goes off the racing line, gets squirrely, and heads for the car they were competing position for; with penalties on, there's at least half a chance the system will catch it and ghost their car through the other and only ruin his own chances at that position. With them off however, there is no chance at all. It might have been an unintentional mistake and both drivers know it, but the results, with penalties off, are at least one of those drivers is in the ditch and more likely both will at least get damage they will have to deal with, one way or another.

I reckon what I'm trying to say is, from my experience, the in game penalty system, flawed as it is, still has more benefits, promoting the SNAIL way of racing, than it has detriments. To have our best drivers, in our top division, disregard those benefits because they disagree with how and when the in-game referee blows his whistle, especially when they know when and where it might happen, just seems seven kinds of all wrong to me.

This has pretty much all been said before, back when the D1 guys brothered up, grabbed the democracy sword rack and asked for it, then got it. I was against it then and still am. The fight was lost back then, by the side I stood on, and I'm not really interested in fighting it again. Well, except for this last salvo. If they want help dealing with drivers who abuse their no penalty setting, they know where to click. If this boils into a movement to make all divisions run without the penalties on.... So be it. At least then we'd all be running under the same "Spec".

Does that clarify my stance on it at all? I can be much more brutally blunt about it, if you'd like me to be.
 
@criscr @mopar440 After being in a room where I was the host you guys need to do something about your connection. If you are wireless, you are not going to be able to get away with lag free clean racing. Gt5 was a P2P where you may have gotten away with relatively lag free




racing. GT6 is no longer P2P, its a star network. So the worst connection in the room can effect everybody. You guys need to take steps to go wired. This also goes for @goofytyler especially if you will be hosting D6. Just looking out for you guys.
@criscr @mopar440 After being in a room where I was the host you guys need to do something about your connection. If you are wireless, you are not going to be able to get away with lag free clean racing. Gt5 was a P2P where you may have gotten away with relatively lag free racing. GT6 is no longer P2P, its a star network. So the worst connection in the room can effect everybody. You guys need to take steps to go wired. This also goes for @goofytyler especially if you will be hosting D6. Just looking out for you guys.


I wasn't being kicked cuz of being wireless, there's something up with my box.. the connection is really good when its working how it should
 
You make good points there Dragon. I would like to make a counter point about the ghosting though. I have seen many instances where a driver just mashes the gas and drives into a semi out of control car hoping they will ghost and not cost them any time instead of lifting and avoiding the semi out of control car.

I don't care which way it goes as there are pluses and minuses on both sides of the debate. Letting D1 turn them off was a pilot program. We have had almost a year to watch and see what happens. Let's just make a decision and apply it to all divisions so everyone is playing by the same rules.
 
As have I JL. Pretty sure it bugs me as much as it might you. We penalize for that when we see it or it's reported.

I agree, pick which way it's going to be and make it so for everyone. Can't say I'm all that enthusiastic about having no penalties for the entire league though. On the other side, without ghosting interfering, it might make determining who's at fault for any particular incident easier on the stewards. Won't have to consider who got ghosted and why.
 
I'm just going to take this opportunity to point out how much we would all love it if PD would allow us to have different penalty settings for qualifying and the race, and the ability to independently enable some penalties and not others. Ghosting is a bigger annoyance than help in twisty combos with low-PP cars. I'd love to be able to turn that off and keep shortcut penalties in those cases.

Ultimately, we should wait to see what PD gives us in the upcoming update, but the one scenario I can't escape is a race at La Sarthe + chickens. The shortcut penalties there are draconian, but without them, qualifying is a potential farce. Even if no one shortcuts, I don't like how it might make people suspicious of each other.

I wish I had something more constructive to add, but I really don't like any of the options on the table here, TBH.
 
I had a larger post about penalties here but it really comes down to this:

Pick one setting and apply it to everyone. There is no reason for one group to play with a different set of rules for what is track and what is not than the rest of the league.
Not sure if you read my earlier post, but I spent much of it trying to explain that this issue has nothing to do with what is track and what is not. If you disagree, that's fine, but at least tell my why you disagree rather than just restate your opinion without addressing mine.

You make good points there Dragon. I would like to make a counter point about the ghosting though. I have seen many instances where a driver just mashes the gas and drives into a semi out of control car hoping they will ghost and not cost them any time instead of lifting and avoiding the semi out of control car.

I don't care which way it goes as there are pluses and minuses on both sides of the debate. Letting D1 turn them off was a pilot program. We have had almost a year to watch and see what happens. Let's just make a decision and apply it to all divisions so everyone is playing by the same rules.
It's pretty simply in my opinion. We have six divisions and a varying skill levels. Last year, we all came to the agreement that Gran Turismo's penalty system sucked. However, at the same time, we agreed that it was a necessary evil in many cases because of the sheer amount of tears it prevented. We also came to the conclusion that of all of or divisions, the one that needed tear prevention the least was D1 because those drivers had the most car control and thus made fewer tear-inducing mistakes. Why is that such a bad thing? Why is the fact that they have a different setting so upsetting to you? We allow our D5 (now D6) to use traction control and driving lines while no other division is allowed to. They are playing be different rules too, no?
 
I'll be really clear here. I don't care why the original decision was made. I care and see an issue with the fact that one division is racing with different track boundaries than the rest of the league. Since we allowed D1 to turn off the penalties, we have discovered that it makes for a different track boundary to race on. Deep Forest was changed by PD somewhere along the line.

D6 can use aids but they're not allowed to be promoted if they do so. If you want to get technical, I'm not in favor of that either.

I'm not in favor of any division running under a different set of rules for any reason. I'm done arguing either way at this point. Do whatever you feel is best for the whole league.
 
I don't equate the penalty setting as a driver aid. The driver aids that are allowed for D6 is to enable the learning curve. While it may be inconsistent of me, that particular batch of settings has been part and parcel to SNAIL for longer than I've been a SNAIL, and is there for benefit and I can't really think of how they could be abused.

By the way, we didn't all come to agreement on the D1 penalty setting.

Yeah, we did all agree, Gran Turismo's penalty system sucks.
 
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As have I JL. Pretty sure it bugs me as much as it might you. We penalize for that when we see it or it's reported.

I agree, pick which way it's going to be and make it so for everyone. Can't say I'm all that enthusiastic about having no penalties for the entire league though. On the other side, without ghosting interfering, it might make determining who's at fault for any particular incident easier on the stewards. Won't have to consider who got ghosted and why.
I could make a case for both sides til I'm blue in the face. Like I said, pluses and minuses both ways. Go either way but make it the same for everyone. We will all adapt to whatever it ends up being.
My vote would be to turn penalties off for D1 through D3 and leave them off for D4 through D6. That way, as @intoflatlines and I were discussing earlier, everyone in the Blue Rooms and Red Rooms could both practice like they race during our official practice night.

A much more extreme option would be to turn penalties off for all divisions, but I doubt the drivers in the lower divisions would want or enjoy that.

As for turning penalties back on in D1, that's not an option.
 
Not sure how drastic this change would be but I'd be in favor of running all divisions with all penalties off and all aids off except for ABS (aids can be kept on in D6 since they cannot be promoted.)

I believe this would give us the best racing in all divisions. Same rules and regulations apply to everyone and everyone is on a level playing field. Penalties are good for regular, everyday races but in a well developed league with great stewards the penalties do more harm than good. Let the stewards determine what is legal and what is not. At least there will be consistency and everyone knows the rules and what to do.
 
I don't equate the penalty setting as a driver aid. The driver aids that are allowed for D6 is to enable the learning curve. While it may be inconsistent of me, that particular batch of settings has been part and parcel to SNAIL for longer than I've been a SNAIL, and is there for benefit and I can't really think of how they could be abused.

By the way, we didn't all come to agreement on the D1 penalty setting.

I read his post to mean that we all came to an agreement that the penalty system sucked. I can agree with that.
 
I think that we can do without the penalty system in GT6, anyone suspected of cutting a corner should be reported and investigated.

I did suffer from a penalty when qualifying for the practice race, I was on a pretty good lap and I just cut the chicane a bit too much and got a 3 second penalty, it cost me at least a second.
 
I believe the penalty system sucks. I was running some practice earlier with it off and the boundary between GT5 and GT6 has changed. The penalties are as steep as they were but they are still there. My honest opinion is in agreeince with Dragon. Run D1-D6 with no penalties, and let D6 keep the TC and driving line aids. With D6 knowing that they can not be promoted if they are using aids. Which is visible in replays anyways. In all actuality the aids are hindering because they do slow you down.
 
My vote would be to turn penalties off for D1 through D3 and leave them off for D4 through D6. That way, as @intoflatlines and I were discussing earlier, everyone in the Blue Rooms and Red Rooms could both practice like they race during our official practice night.

A much more extreme option would be to turn penalties off for all divisions, but I doubt the drivers in the lower divisions would want or enjoy that.

As for turning penalties back on in D1, that's not an option.

If there is no flexibility for turning them back on for D1 then my vote would be to turn them off for everyone. I still don't care either way, I just want to see consistency across the board.
 
I'm just going to take this opportunity to point out how much we would all love it if PD would allow us to have different penalty settings for qualifying and the race, and the ability to independently enable some penalties and not others. Ghosting is a bigger annoyance than help in twisty combos with low-PP cars. I'd love to be able to turn that off and keep shortcut penalties in those cases.

Ultimately, we should wait to see what PD gives us in the upcoming update, but the one scenario I can't escape is a race at La Sarthe + chickens. The shortcut penalties there are draconian, but without them, qualifying is a potential farce. Even if no one shortcuts, I don't like how it might make people suspicious of each other.

I wish I had something more constructive to add, but I really don't like any of the options on the table here, TBH.
Agreed, but I don't think update from PD is going to fix this. To me, this would be the ideal way to allow penalties to be configured. Been waiting over more than a year and half for that, and not holding my breathe.. :)

I'll be really clear here. I don't care why the original decision was made. I care and see an issue with the fact that one division is racing with different track boundaries than the rest of the league. Since we allowed D1 to turn off the penalties, we have discovered that it makes for a different track boundary to race on. Deep Forest was changed by PD somewhere along the line.

D6 can use aids but they're not allowed to be promoted if they do so. If you want to get technical, I'm not in favor of that either.

I'm not in favor of any division running under a different set of rules for any reason. I'm done arguing either way at this point. Do whatever you feel is best for the whole league.
This isn't an argument. It's you telling me you opinion and not listening to mine. I've already made my opinion on your track boundary known, but you've simply ignored it, twice. If you disagree with my take on it, then simply tell me why. If you're just going to repeat the same thing over and over without allowing for a point/counter-point discussion, then it was never an argument in the first place. It was just you saying what you want.
 
As for turning penalties back on in D1, that's not an option.

For someone who just loves to put things up for a vote and ask for everyone's opinion...this statement should tell everyone where they stand should those opinions happen to differ from his.

Of course this is something many of us have known for a while.
 
All you have said is that track boundaries are a non issue and were not part of the original decision. You're right, track boundaries were not part of the original decision. It is something that has come to light since that decision was made. I have stated why I feel different track boundaries are an issue. It creates inconsistency across the divisions. Have you ever said why you feel different track boundaries are a non-issue? I haven't seen that anywhere. Do you care to enlighten me as to why you see it as a non-issue? Simply calling it a non-issue is not expressing your opinion, it's blowing off my opinion.

Edit: I wish there was a "love" button for the post above this one.
 
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