2.09 Toe Testing

[Motor City Hami]

A fantastic discussion has shown up in an old thread with no hope of ever changing the thread title to something relevant, so I opened this thread to keep the discussion from getting lost. I will treat this one like the LSD thread where the OP contains the simple description of each tuner's thoery and the thread posts beyond that are for deeper discussion.

Either post in this forum or send me a PM if you would like your throery clarrified or added

Adrenaline - Rear Toe: I always start at 0.00 and move Positive to create stability, or negative to induce oversteer, or create rotation.

Front Toe: I use front toe to balance the entry/exit of a corner. Where I feel that once the car is already tuned, if you need to add entry ability, you use negative front toe. If you need to add exit ability you add positive toe(or also remove the tendency of a car to excessively 'dive' into the corner). Based on what the car is doing, I use front toe, to try and make the car feel consistent all the way through the corner. Entry will effect the entire corner, so people tend to notice it having more effect as a whole.

CSLACR - -ve = more on entry
+ve = more on exit

CyKosis1973 - My experience, with a DS3 and my fat, old thumbs, is that negative front toe produces oversteer. Which is welcome in FWD cars, but not so welcome with other drivetrains. Positive front toe makes the car much more stable going into a corner and provides fantastic grip from apex to corner exit (this is combined with positive rear toe, as mentioned further up this thread, I can barely drive a car with negative rear toe).


Motor City Hami - Not enough testing across the full range yet. Kind of had my pre-conceived ideas about what the settings can do for me so haven't wandered too far outside of a pretty narrow range of settings.
FF & 4WD with front -10 to -25 and rear -5 to -25
FR, MR & RR with front -10 to -25 and rear +5 to +25


Ridox2JZGTE - rear toe is at 0, positive front toe leads to better turn in but more understeer mid corner, and negative front toe yields better mid corner grip and slower turn in.

rosckolove - +front -rear helps the car rotate

Stotty - I've always thought of +ve front toe as an illusion... gives the impression it's reducing understeer as it makes the steering feel more 'alive', but ultimately it reduces mid corner grip and leads to slower lap times.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Previous thread - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4212843#post4212843

Or text version below.

rosckolove Nurburgring Specialist
The main reason the corvette isn't competitive in PP racing is because of its understeer. I used to run similar settings. Opposite toe settings helped a lot with the understeer (positive front negative rear)

I'm sorry I didn't test it at a track with 6 corners, I chose the Ring. Perhaps the car is very stable and easy to drive. But those toe settings IMO would promote understeer. The initial turn in on the car is great. Its mid corner rotation that the vette sucks at, and opposite toe settings would help with that.

IMO.

I only saw one of your tunes. Perhaps the other one is different, in which case I will eat my words, and apologize for my stupidity.
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USAJohnSmallberries38 Jan 06 2013, 8:14 PM #14Broseph New Member
Check these out

http://www.gt5-tuning.com/index.php?...‘06_RM
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Dearborn, MIMotorCtyHamilton2,094 Jan 06 2013, 9:29 PM #15Motor City Hami Diamond Member Online Now!
rosckolove
and opposite toe settings would help with that.

So toe settings are backward now too? How did I miss that?
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East Coast, USAdayofwar2009688 Jan 06 2013, 10:36 PM #16rosckolove Nurburgring Specialist
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So toe settings are backward now too? How did I miss that?

Compared to how they always were in GT5?

+front -rear helps a car rotate in this game. The OP asked....... (let me check again to make sure) Yes, he asked how to help with the understeer.

Is the Vette backwards?
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Detroit, Mich.cargorat323/GTP_CargoRatt4,311 Jan 06 2013, 11:37 PM #17GTP_CargoRat Time Trial Warrior
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first you have to report how many (HP HOW MANY KG) which circuit etc.

I bet you're going to be waiting around another two years for this guy to answer you. I'll check back in a few years to see what he has to say.
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Under your skinGTP_Orido2,188 Jan 06 2013, 11:58 PM #18Ridox2JZGTE Godzillaaaa!!!
+front and -rear toe does help reduce understeer and increase mid corner rotation, I usually run +10 to +15 front and -5 to -10 rear on FR cars, depend on how understeer the car is. My Hosaka Tuning R33 GTR linked on my sig have pretty extreme toe +35 front and -35 rear, but it does handle great, oversteer on 4WD ftw
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50 Yesterday, 2:41 PM #19kleefton Junior Member
Wow yesterday i saw someone preaching how negative front toe coupled with positive rear toe made cars rotate more. Today i am reading the total opposite. Wtf?

From doing my own testing i have found that if rear toe is at 0, positive front toe leads to better turn in but more understeer mid corner, and negative front toe yields better mid corner grip and slower turn in. Is this wrong?

I will try the negative rear and positive front combo though.
Last edited by kleefton; Yesterday at 2:48 PM.
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Dearborn, MIMotorCtyHamilton2,094 Yesterday, 2:54 PM #20Motor City Hami Diamond Member Online Now!
kleefton
Wow yesterday i saw someone preaching how negative front toe coupled with positive rear toe made cars rotate more. Today i am reading the total opposite. Wtf?

Don't listen to anything in this thread. Many thoeries posted without anyone showing thier work with a real test and measureable results. Do your own testing on the subject.

kleefton Junior Member
Motor City Hami

Don't listen to anything in this thread. Many thoeries posted without anyone showing thier work with a real test and measureable results. Do your own testing on the subject.

Thx. But i have never thought about running such a crazy combo. I'm intrigued so i will definitely test that theory.
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East Coast, USAdayofwar2009688 Yesterday, 3:06 PM #22rosckolove Nurburgring Specialist
Why would you not listen. It absolutely creates oversteer. I don't need to do a way to long super controlled test to say that +front -rear helps the car rotate. Thats what it does, its very noticeable. Go try it.

Go and run -0.15 +0.15

then run +0.15 -0.15

Tell me which one has more mid corner rotation.
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Under your skinGTP_Orido2,188 Yesterday, 3:09 PM #23Ridox2JZGTE Godzillaaaa!!!
^ or try my Hosaka Tuning R33 GTR tune on my sig, and be ready for some oversteer action on 4WD, tune was made for Eiger on sports soft tires, but can be used on other tracks too.
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UK174 Yesterday, 3:13 PM #24rams1de Active Member Online Now!
kleefton
From doing my own testing i have found that if rear toe is at 0, positive front toe leads to better turn in but more understeer mid corner, and negative front toe yields better mid corner grip and slower turn in. Is this wrong?

Not if you've tested and that's your findings. There's plenty of tuners take differing approaches and get good results.

Prior to 2.08, it was very common to see negative rear toe used on AWD and FWD and positive rear toe to help grip on corner exit on slippy RWD.

But since the last update it's proving difficult to rid formerly neutral cars of under steer and the use of positive front toe is becoming more common. It could make some cars a little unstable at one time but not so much now.
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50 Yesterday, 3:39 PM #25kleefton Junior Member
Negative rear toe makes more sense though. If u visualize what the outside rear tire is doing while the car is cornering you'd think its better if it was angled outward to help the rear end move out. So if that rear outside tire is angled inward then the rear end should be more reluctant to rotate. The rear inside tire toe does very little since theres almost no weight on that end while cornering.
But i know... i know...this is not real life...
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LondonGTP_Stotty3,246 Yesterday, 3:44 PM #26Stotty My other car's a Porsche Online Now!
I've always thought of +ve front toe as an illusion... gives the impression it's reducing understeer as it makes the steering feel more 'alive', but ultimately it reduces mid corner grip and leads to slower lap times.

I used -ve rear toe on virtually everything... has much more of an influence over handling balance than front toe.
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Under your skinGTP_Orido2,188 Yesterday, 3:51 PM #27Ridox2JZGTE Godzillaaaa!!!
Try to visualize front positive toe ( tire point inward ) and imagine the tire pointed in certain direction, say turning right at an angle, the outside front wheel with more load have more angle into the turn - better turn in response and the rear outside wheel with negative toe points outward which helped the rear rotate more.

Mid corner there will be more rotation, but it will gradually pushed outward when exiting as the steering angle is reduced, with FR cars, understeer on exit won't be much an issue, this however might not be favorable with FF cars with big power, it's more driver dependent, some do not like it. For FR cars, I never run more than +20 on the front, sometimes +10 is more than enough, +15 works on certain cars.

Sometimes I run FR with both positive front and rear, as some FR have natural oversteer tendency, +10F and +20R, this often works with cars like Triumph Spitfire or Ginetta G4.
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LondonGTP_Stotty3,246 Yesterday, 4:08 PM #28Stotty My other car's a Porsche Online Now!
I don't need a lesson in toe, I understand how it works

As I said, IMO, +ve front toe does nothing but make you think the car is understeering less because the steering feels more responsive (which is at odds with real life, where it makes the car more stable). In reality it kills mid corner and exit speed by adding understeer.

And in any case, it's not the outside tyre you need to be concerned about... it's the tyre under most load so you'll naturally apply enough steering lock to get this tyre to the right angle (but not to the extent you have the front sliding)... the inside tyre is the one that then carries extra angle and helps 'pull' the front round the corner.

I've got a few of the 'Super Aliens' on my friends list and get to see the tunes they use on the seasonal TT's when they have cars on share... and I have never seen any tunes from any of these people running +ve front toe.
Last edited by Stotty; Yesterday at 4:13 PM.
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East Coast, USAdayofwar2009688 Yesterday, 4:12 PM #29rosckolove Nurburgring Specialist
Stotty
I don't need a lesson in toe, I understand how it works

As I said, IMO, +ve front toe does nothing but make you think the car is understeering less because the steering feels more responsive. In reality it kills mid corner and exit speed by adding understeer.

I've got a few of the 'Super Aliens' on my friends list and get to see the tunes they use on the seasonal TT's when they have cars on share... and I have never seen any tunes from any of these people running +ve front toe.

Now thats the way to back up your opinion haha. Are you saying you run 0.00 in the front, or negative front toe? After your edit I assume you run a a low value of negative toe up front compared to the rear?
Last edited by rosckolove; Yesterday at 4:18 PM.
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LondonGTP_Stotty3,246 Yesterday, 4:21 PM #30Stotty My other car's a Porsche Online Now!
rosckolove
Now thats the way to back up your opinion haha. Are you saying you run 0.00 in the front, or negative front toe?

100% of the time -ve front and 99.9% of the time -ve rear. Only time I'd ever use +ve front toe is on high powered RWD cars on tyres that are borderline for grip. The SLS current seasonal is one example... 721bhp, no aero, sports hards... on this one I use +0.05 to help make the oversteer a bit less of a pain on exits... it doesn't stop the oversteer, just helps reduce how sideways the car gets.

IME, front toe has much less of an influence over balance compared to rear toe.


rosckolove
I assume you run a a low value of negative toe up front compared to the rear?

Not necessarily... some cars I'll run more front than rear... depends. But rarely either will be above -0.20.
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Dearborn, MIMotorCtyHamilton2,096 Yesterday, 4:48 PM #31Motor City Hami Diamond Member Online Now!
rosckolove
Why would you not listen. It absolutely creates oversteer. I don't need to do a way to long super controlled test to say that +front -rear helps the car rotate. Thats what it does, its very noticeable. Go try it.

Go and run -0.15 +0.15

then run +0.15 -0.15

Tell me which one has more mid corner rotation.

I think you need to test these changes separately. Change rear only, then change front only.
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Under your skinGTP_Orido2,188 Yesterday, 4:52 PM #32Ridox2JZGTE Godzillaaaa!!!
As I said, it's driver dependent and it's relating to GT5 not real life which is different . Maybe it has to do with me running without ABS as well, I always trail braking on corner entry, is just natural. Recently I have been tuning and testing various cars at Akina ( a custom track now used for GTP Hot Version Touge Showdown ), so I ended up using +front and - rear on some cars after many laps of testing.

I used +10F and +5R on race event at Deadnutsevenracing yesterday, the car was Elise'96 415pp with comfort soft tire, good for 1:58 at Cote D'Azure, it can pull off 1:57 with a better driver. I experimented with +10F and -5R, the car tend to slide on exits for me, 10/4 BB, no ABS.

FYI, I rarely use - front toe, it's either 0 front toe or +, rear can be 0, - or + depend on the car and track.

It's more of preference for me, so anyone interested please try experiment what's best. When tuning + testing I always start with 0 toe F and R, then experiment by 5 increments.
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East Coast, USAdayofwar2009688 Yesterday, 4:53 PM #33rosckolove Nurburgring Specialist
I'll eat my words on front toe for now.

Negative rear toe promotes oversteer. Positive promotes the opposite.
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massachusettsSGETI209 Yesterday, 5:01 PM #34SGETI Senior Member Online Now!
Where is Adrenaline to resolve this matter?
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East Coast, USAdayofwar2009688 Yesterday, 5:04 PM #35rosckolove Nurburgring Specialist
I think speed is the name of the game on this forum. Being an academy finalist puts you at the top and validates your opinion.

I feel its solved, thanks to Stotty.
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Nor CalGrinols2,619 Yesterday, 5:06 PM #36Adrenaline doesnt play well w/others
SGETI
Where is Adrenaline to resolve this matter?

Just watching the show.
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LondonGTP_Stotty3,246 Yesterday, 5:08 PM #37Stotty My other car's a Porsche Online Now!
Ridox2JZGTE
As I said, it's driver dependent and it's relating to GT5 not real life which is different . Maybe it has to do with me running without ABS as well, I always trail braking on corner entry, is just natural. Recently I have been tuning and testing various cars at Akina ( a custom track now used for GTP Hot Version Touge Showdown ), so I ended up using +front and - rear on some cars after many laps of testing.

I used +10F and +5R on race event at Deadnutsevenracing yesterday, the car was Elise'96 415pp with comfort soft tire, good for 1:58 at Cote D'Azure, it can pull off 1:57 with a better driver. I experimented with +10F and -5R, the car tend to slide on exits for me, 10/4 BB, no ABS.

FYI, I rarely use - front toe, it's either 0 front toe or +, rear can be 0, - or + depend on the car and track.

It's more of preference for me, so anyone interested please try experiment what's best. When tuning + testing I always start with 0 toe F and R, then experiment by 5 increments.

Not sure about changes without ABS as although I am a confirmed trail braker, I always use it.

I understand with the Elise... it can be a tricky little bugger... but I like that about it I'd use other settings than toe to manage that though... stiffening the rear springs/dampers/ARB's to manage the lateral weight transfer and roll oversteer.


rosckolove
I think speed is the name of the game on this forum. Being an academy finalist puts you at the top and validates your opinion.

I feel its solved, thanks to Stotty.

Kind of you to say, but I'm afraid I'm not as fast as I used to be (just like I'm not as young as I used to be - there may e a correlation )... and 2010 Academy was a different physics engine and non-tunable cars.

I have no empirical evidence that -ve is better than +ve, it's just how it feels to me.
Last edited by Stotty; Yesterday at 5:16 PM.
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Under your skinGTP_Orido2,188 Yesterday, 5:15 PM #38Ridox2JZGTE Godzillaaaa!!!
Stotty
Not sure about changes without ABS as although I am a confirmed trail braker, I always use it.

I understand with the Elise... it can be a tricky little bugger... but I like that about it I'd use other settings than toe to manage that though... stiffening the rear springs/dampers/ARB's to manage the lateral weight transfer and roll oversteer.

I was running Elise using full custom suspension, but with almost stock appearance + behavior just for fun Here is my setup :

Ride H 25/30
Spring 2.0/3.0
Ext 4/2
Comp 3/2
ARB 4/6
Camber 2.3/1.8
Toe 0.10/0.05

LSD 5/6/5

Soft spring, high ride height, the car needs smooth operator and tuned with no ABS in mind, I love watching the replay as the car rolls in every corner

With this setup, I only alter toe setting to get what I wanted
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LondonGTP_Stotty3,246 Yesterday, 5:25 PM #39Stotty My other car's a Porsche Online Now!
Ridox2JZGTE
I was running Elise using full custom suspension, but with almost stock appearance + behavior just for fun Here is my setup :

Ride H 25/30
Spring 2.0/3.0
Ext 4/2
Comp 3/2
ARB 4/6
Camber 2.3/1.8
Toe 0.10/0.05

LSD 5/6/5

Soft spring, high ride height, the car needs smooth operator and tuned with no ABS in mind, I love watching the replay as the car rolls in every corner

With this setup, I only alter toe setting to get what I wanted

That's an interesting set up and one I certainly wouldn't have come up with... well, not the ride height settings anyway - the rest looks fine balance wise, but I'd not expect it to be a particularly quick tune

I think we might have different objectives TBH... I get so little time to play GT5 nowadays that I'll be running Seasonal TT's if I do... and that means I'm purely focused on tuning for the fastest single lap. I don't really just lap for the fun of it (TT's are my fun).
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United StatesGTP_CSL7,802 Yesterday, 5:32 PM #40CSLACR Land of the Underdog!
Stotty
I don't need a lesson in toe, I understand how it works

As I said, IMO, +ve front toe does nothing but make you think the car is understeering less because the steering feels more responsive (which is at odds with real life, where it makes the car more stable). In reality it kills mid corner and exit speed by adding understeer.

And in any case, it's not the outside tyre you need to be concerned about... it's the tyre under most load so you'll naturally apply enough steering lock to get this tyre to the right angle (but not to the extent you have the front sliding)... the inside tyre is the one that then carries extra angle and helps 'pull' the front round the corner.

I've got a few of the 'Super Aliens' on my friends list and get to see the tunes they use on the seasonal TT's when they have cars on share... and I have never seen any tunes from any of these people running +ve front toe.

I could, without a doubt, post video of + front toe lowering a lap time in an otherwise unchanged AEM S2000 if you're interested.
I'm not a super-alien, but I have a pretty good idea what goes fast/faster usually.

We could discuss if positive toe is ultimately the fastest route and/or if other things can be adjusted to compensate, improving the lap time from a setup using positive toe, which I'd be interested to investigate.

In this example, the S2000 is oversteering harshly on entry stock, so setting -ve toe on the front increases the problem, which would mean more dramatic other settings to compensate. Whether that's ultimately faster or not I do not know.
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That's an interesting set up and one I certainly wouldn't have come up with... well, not the ride height settings anyway - the rest looks fine balance wise, but I'd not expect it to be a particularly quick tune

I think we might have different objectives TBH... I get so little time to play GT5 nowadays that I'll be running Seasonal TT's if I do... and that means I'm purely focused on tuning for the fastest single lap. I don't really just lap for the fun of it (TT's are my fun).

Yeah, it was fun to race with, I got 1st on one of the warm up races, then 4th was my best on the main races Anyway, Stotty this might be interesting tune to drive for you, if you have free time, try my R33 GTR Hosaka tune linked on my sig, run with the tune's toe ( +35F, -35R ) then reverse it and then run 0F,0R, try it at Eiger with SS tire, any BB you prefer, with or without ABS. The tune's toe has been reviewed by the testers at GTP Hot Version Touge, as having oversteer , on the same thread as the tune.
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Nor CalGrinols2,619 Yesterday, 5:40 PM #42Adrenaline doesnt play well w/others
With all due respect to Stotty, and other aliens alike, it's somewhat counter intuitive to blindly believe based on speed. Point being, Stotty could take a completely backwards tune and still be competitive. The difference between -/+ toe to him probably only effects his lap times by less than a tenth, and I'd even venture to say it doesn't necessarily effect the cars balance, as much as it simply alters the balance that suits his driving needs. The other issue against following what 'the group' of aliens do, is that because they're all within the same time bracket, it's likely that they all share the same type of driving style, and what suits them, doesn't always transfer to other driving styles. There's also the possibility, that because they fight for thousandths on a weekly basis, that their tunes also tend to follow patterns based on past success, and they regularly use Negative Front Toe, simply because that's what they always do, and it always works, which is somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Unfortunately the 2.09 update has altered things to a point, that I no longer feel as strongly about my standpoint on the matter. I don't possess the time/effort put into tuning as I did before this update, so I can't confidently say my old guideline remains accurate.

So as long as everyone is willing to take it as an outdated method, that use to work, but has yet to be proven, (nor disproven) theory on toe, mine is as follows:

Rear Toe: I always start at 0.00 and move Positive to create stability, or negative to induce oversteer, or create rotation.

Front Toe: I use front toe to balance the entry/exit of a corner. Where I feel that once the car is already tuned, if you need to add entry ability, you use negative front toe. If you need to add exit ability you add positive toe(or also remove the tendency of a car to excessively 'dive' into the corner). Based on what the car is doing, I use front toe, to try and make the car feel consistent all the way through the corner. Entry will effect the entire corner, so people tend to notice it having more effect as a whole.

Again... This was my belief prior to 2.09, and have yet to re-test the theory.
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LondonGTP_Stotty3,246 Yesterday, 5:46 PM #43Stotty My other car's a Porsche Online Now!
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I could, without a doubt, post video of + front toe lowering a lap time in an otherwise unchanged AEM S2000 if you're interested.
I'm not a super-alien, but I have a pretty good idea what goes fast/faster usually.

We could discuss if positive toe is ultimately the fastest route and/or if other things can be adjusted to compensate, improving the lap time from a setup using positive toe, which I'd be interested to investigate.

In this example, the S2000 is oversteering harshly on entry stock, so setting -ve toe on the front increases the problem, which would mean more dramatic other settings to compensate. Whether that's ultimately faster or not I do not know.

I don't think I've ever driven an S2000 in GT5 (though I do own very version in the game), but I tend to like cars that do that

But I'd say that reducing front end grip to help you manage oversteer isn't the right strategy.

My philosophy on buiding the fastest car I can is never do anything to reduce front end grip... in fact do everything you possily can to get the most out of the front end. Then deal with the oversteer.

Though the more typical process is deal with the initial oversteer directly but as gently as possible... get used to the car... add more front end grip until it becomes unmanageable... deal directly with the oversteer... add more front end grip... etc etc.

Edit to respond to Adrenaline....


Adrenaline
With all due respect to Stotty, and other aliens alike, it's somewhat counter intuitive to blindly believe based on speed. Point being, Stotty could take a completely backwards tune and still be competitive. The difference between -/+ toe to him probably only effects his lap times by less than a tenth, and I'd even venture to say it doesn't necessarily effect the cars balance, as much as it simply alters the balance that suits his driving needs. The other issue against following what 'the group' of aliens do, is that because they're all within the same time bracket, it's likely that they all share the same type of driving style, and what suits them, doesn't always transfer to other driving styles. There's also the possibility, that because they fight for thousandths on a weekly basis, that their tunes also tend to follow patterns based on past success, and they regularly use Negative Front Toe, simply because that's what they always do, and it always works, which is somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Unfortunately the 2.09 update has altered things to a point, that I no longer feel as strongly about my standpoint on the matter. I don't possess the time/effort put into tuning as I did before this update, so I can't confidently say my old guideline remains accurate.

So as long as everyone is willing to take it as an outdated method, that use to work, but has yet to be proven, (nor disproven) theory on toe, mine is as follows:

Rear Toe: I always start at 0.00 and move Positive to create stability, or negative to induce oversteer, or create rotation.

Front Toe: I use front toe to balance the entry/exit of a corner. Where I feel that once the car is already tuned, if you need to add entry ability, you use negative front toe. If you need to add exit ability you add positive toe(or also remove the tendency of a car to excessively 'dive' into the corner). Based on what the car is doing, I use front toe, to try and make the car feel consistent all the way through the corner. Entry will effect the entire corner, so people tend to notice it having more effect as a whole.

Again... This was my belief prior to 2.09, and have yet to re-test the theory.

Great post... lots of good points Except the insinuation I might be linked in any way to Alien status... last time I looked I was 1.1s slower than Amo in the SLS TT and 6s slower than Dan in the C7

I've bolded the 2 particular bits I agree with...

I can normally get in the top 50 within 30 mins or so and by my 2nd session I'm within a few tenths of what I know is possile for me.... after that I'm usually looking for a tiny setting change to help in one area of the event I know I'm losing time to the top ranked ghost whilst not changing too much to lose time where I'm competitive. Sometimes I'll have the tune of the fastest time via car share, though I have to say I have no idea how AmoRacing sets his times with the tunes he uses - they are beyond my skill level. And it's true, there's a similar approach by most at the sharp end of the TT leaderboards... get as much front end grip as you can, because that's what allows fast laps. And yes, the front toe point is probably true

The comment on rear toe is a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy... my point is I almost always want the car more unstable... I rarely get in a car that's not MR and think 'Ah, what a lovely balance'.. the last virgin car I drove like that was a stock Esprit (might have been the 350 Sport) for the Nurb lap times thread. But if I was to tune that car I would still start by adding front grip, not taking it away.
Last edited by Stotty; Yesterday at 6:13 PM.
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United StatesGTP_CSL7,802 Yesterday, 6:12 PM #44CSLACR Land of the Underdog!
I agree with your philosophy Stotty, but you're looking at it as "removed grip", where I view it as "transferred grip".
-ve = more on entry
+ve = more on exit

Since I've started testing this theory from Adrenaline (all 2.09) it has worked on every single car I've tried it on. (RWD and 4WD)


Actually removing front grip can't make a car faster, just easier to drive to the limits of.
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LondonGTP_Stotty3,246 Yesterday, 6:23 PM #45Stotty My other car's a Porsche Online Now!
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I agree with your philosophy Stotty, but you're looking at it as "removed grip", where I view it as "transferred grip".
-ve = more on entry
+ve = more on exit

Since I've started testing this theory from Adrenaline (all 2.09) it has worked on every single car I've tried it on. (RWD and 4WD)


Actually removing front grip can't make a car faster, just easier to drive to the limits of.

Do you mean grip transferred from front tyres to rear tyres, or from corner entry to corner exit?

And are you referring to front end grip or overall grip with the entry/exit point?

Up to a point we all don't want a car to be too easy to drive... but then everyone's easy to drive point is different
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United StatesGTP_CSL7,802 Yesterday, 6:34 PM #46CSLACR Land of the Underdog!
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Do you mean grip transferred from front tyres to rear tyres, or from corner entry to corner exit?

And are you referring to front end grip or overall grip with the entry/exit point?

Up to a point we all don't want a car to be too easy to drive... but then everyone's easy to drive point is different

If you run negative toe, you are increasing front grip on corner entry.
(vs 0.00 front toe)
If you run positive front toe, you are increasing front grip on corner exit.
(vs 0.00 front toe)

Theoretically 0.00 has maximum mid-corner grip, although negative is claimed to have more grip with heavy steering angles, super-aliens don't use heavy steering angles to my knowledge.
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Dearborn, MIMotorCtyHamilton2,096 Yesterday, 7:18 PM #47Motor City Hami Diamond Member Online Now!
Oh my... what have I started. The shame about this thread is that the OP title will insure that it will not again be found 30+ days from now. Too bad, because it is a worthy discussion from once again a divided GTPlanet community.

With my limited 2.09 testing on this subject, I agree with Adrenaline, Stotty and CSLACR. I knew that there were others out there that, like me, had a different take on toe than what had been previously discussed in this thread. Happy to see others weigh in.
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LondonGTP_Stotty3,246 Today, 2:26 AM #48Stotty My other car's a Porsche Online Now!
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If you run negative toe, you are increasing front grip on corner entry.
(vs 0.00 front toe)
If you run positive front toe, you are increasing front grip on corner exit.
(vs 0.00 front toe)

Theoretically 0.00 has maximum mid-corner grip, although negative is claimed to have more grip with heavy steering angles, super-aliens don't use heavy steering angles to my knowledge.

If that is the case then it's certainly worth me looking at as corner exit speed is king when it comes to lap times!
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Hillsboro OregoXDesperado675,147 Today, 3:15 AM #49XDesperado67 The Harvey Wallbanger Online Now!
While I'm far from being a great driver I've found especially recently that while front toe out does seem to generate a bit quicker turn in/agility, but it seems to have a negative effect on mid corner and corner exit with the car wanting to push wide/understeer more, especially in medium and high speed corners. Front toe in can create better grip mid corner and on exit at times.
That said the grip levels between front and rear need to be ballanced for best driving feel and ease of use. Having an extremely grippy front end and relatively loose rear end is a good way to end up spinning out constantly while having the rear grip exceeding the front prevents rotation of the car and ends with understeering.
For my own driving style (or lack thereof ) I like the cars rear end to be just a hair looser than the front to enable smooth rotation but not so loose that I'm constantly fighting to keep from losing the back and spinning out.
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PompeyCyKosis19731,771 Today, 4:03 AM #50CyKosis1973 We Supply Movement
Stotty
If that is the case then it's certainly worth me looking at as corner exit speed is king when it comes to lap times!

Since 2.09, the only cars I use -front toe on are FWD cars. Every other drivetrain I've built since, has +front toe. It makes my eyes bleed when I see any car with -rear toe, I just don't know how people can drive them (other than they're miles better than I am). Almost without exception, if I drive a car with -rear toe, I'll spin it the moment I drag a rear wheel over the grass.

Corner exit is indeed King, for me at least. I'd rather my cars where a little stubborn going into a corner, if I can get on the gas early and hoof it out of a corner. At Grand Valley, out of the first hairpin, most of my cars I can get on the gas well before the apex. Most satisfying to watch people scream into the corner, right up my chuff, to then be left behind on exit...

{Cy}

PS - You won't necessarily know this, but most others here do, I'm not fast. I'm a slow, club-thumbed old man, so I don't like cars that are too waggly going in. I don't have the reflexes of a 14 year old any more
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Nor CalGrinols2,619 Today, 5:02 AM #51Adrenaline doesnt play well w/others
XDesperado67
I've found especially recently that while front toe out does seem to generate a bit quicker turn in/agility, but it seems to have a negative effect on mid corner and corner exit with the car wanting to push wide/understeer more...

Was this worded correctly, perhaps a mistake, or is your standpoint the opposite of what I and CSL have stated, as far as +/- effecting exit/entry respectively.
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Hillsboro OregoXDesperado675,147 Today, 5:43 AM #52XDesperado67 The Harvey Wallbanger Online Now!
Adrenaline
Was this worded correctly, perhaps a mistake, or is your standpoint the opposite of what I and CSL have stated, as far as +/- effecting exit/entry respectively.

Might just be my missreading of the values.
I agree with you that a - toe gives quicker front response/turn in while a + value can aid in mid corner and corner exit on some cars.
If that still doesn't match what your saying then just chalk this up to the ramblings of a crazy Ol'Wallbanger.
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50 Today, 10:31 AM #53kleefton Junior Member
Stotty
I've always thought of +ve front toe as an illusion... gives the impression it's reducing understeer as it makes the steering feel more 'alive', but ultimately it reduces mid corner grip and leads to slower lap times.

I used -ve rear toe on virtually everything... has much more of an influence over handling balance than front toe.

I tend to agree with this super alien more than i do with the majority on this thread and im not even a fast driver. But what he refers to as an illusion to me is better steering response aka better turn in.
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LondonGTP_Stotty3,246 Today, 11:59 AM #54Stotty My other car's a Porsche Online Now!
I was thinking about this last night after I'd signed off... and I’m struggling to understand why –ve front toe would help turn in whilst +ve front toe would help with mid corner and exit speed. If –ve front toe helps turn in, why would it not help mid corner, unless it’s just perceived feel during the initial phase of cornering. My experience is the reverse of this (+ve front toe helps initially, but hinders mid corner)… or at least that’s how it felt to me pre 2.09 – I haven’t tried +ve front toe seriously post the update.

The more I think about it the more I conclude +ve front toe can only induce understeer when there’s lateral load on the tyre – the inside (relatively unloaded) tyre will be trying to scribe a shallower radius and working against the outside (loaded) tyre rather than helping it... and this effect should be consistent whenever there’s lateral load on the tyre, be it entry, mid or exit (although the magnitude of the effect may be higher with higher load levels).

I will of course test it out… and make sure I do it when I’m well in to a session, have a good feel for the car and running consistent laps. Hopefully I’ll get chance this weekend if my wife doesn’t have any plans for me.


CyKosis1973
It makes my eyes bleed when I see any car with -rear toe, I just don't know how people can drive them (other than they're miles better than I am). Almost without exception, if I drive a car with -rear toe, I'll spin it the moment I drag a rear wheel over the grass.

Don’t look at my garage then or you’ll bleed to death in seconds… pretty much every car I have tuned will have –ve rear toe

But I don’t tend to use the grass… well not whilst cornering
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Under your skinGTP_Orido2,188 Today, 12:15 PM #55Ridox2JZGTE Godzillaaaa!!!
Stotty
I was thinking about this last night after I'd signed off... and I’m struggling to understand why –ve front toe would help turn in whilst +ve front toe would help with mid corner and exit speed. If –ve front toe helps turn in, why would it not help mid corner, unless it’s just perceived feel during the initial phase of cornering. My experience is the reverse of this (+ve front toe helps initially, but hinders mid corner)… or at least that’s how it felt to me pre 2.09 – I haven’t tried +ve front toe seriously post the update.

The more I think about it the more I conclude +ve front toe can only induce understeer when there’s lateral load on the tyre – the inside (relatively unloaded) tyre will be trying to scribe a shallower radius and working against the outside (loaded) tyre rather than helping it... and this effect should be consistent whenever there’s lateral load on the tyre, be it entry, mid or exit (although the magnitude of the effect may be higher with higher load levels).

I will of course test it out… and make sure I do it when I’m well in to a session, have a good feel for the car and running consistent laps. Hopefully I’ll get chance this weekend if my wife doesn’t have any plans for me.

Stotty, please don't forget to try my R33 tune if you have spare time on that weekend , try it at Eiger with SS tires, reverse the toe and then 0 toe all around. The tune also works great at Akina ( Toscana Custom track used on GTP Touge Showdown ) - I have it on share, send me FR if you are interested, the track is great to test suspension setup, toe changes can be really felt on most corners.
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LondonZiz5281,259 Today, 12:31 PM #56trackripper123 Diamond Member Online Now!
Ridox2JZGTE
Stotty, please don't forget to try my R33 tune if you have spare time on that weekend , try it at Eiger with SS tires, reverse the toe and then 0 toe all around. The tune also works great at Akina ( Toscana Custom track used on GTP Touge Showdown ) - I have it on share, send me FR if you are interested, the track is great to test suspension setup, toe changes can be really felt on most corners.

Dude, how was this relevant to the quote at all? You've done that twice in this thread, and forgive me, but my OCD side won't let it go without me commenting on it.
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Under your skinGTP_Orido2,188 Today, 12:38 PM #57Ridox2JZGTE Godzillaaaa!!!
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Dude, how was this relevant to the quote at all? You've done that twice in this thread, and forgive me, but my OCD side won't let it go without me commenting on it.

Sorry, MB, I have been doing lots of testing and tuning the past month (2.09), experimenting with camber, toe, ARB, damper and spring on various cars ( FF, FR, MR, AWD, RR ) and seeing some post that have different findings lead me to have this urge to persuade them to at least give my tune a try and see how toe affect it's handling, like the R33 in particular, I ran all kinds of toe on it - even extreme ones like +1.00F -1.00R, while the rest are static, and the best is whats on the tune now.
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LondonZiz5281,259 Today, 12:41 PM #58trackripper123 Diamond Member Online Now!
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Sorry, MB, I have been doing lots of testing and tuning the past month (2.09), experimenting with camber, toe, ARB, damper and spring on various cars ( FF, FR, MR, AWD, RR ) and seeing some post that have different findings lead me to have this urge to persuade them to at least give my tune a try and see how toe affect it's handling, like the R33 in particular, I ran all kinds of toe on it - even extreme ones like +1.00F -1.00R, while the rest are static, and the best is whats on the tune now.

Ah, gotcha. I would help you out, but as everyone knows, dead PS3.
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[Ridox2JZGTE]

Hi, MCH, I entered a tune for FITT Clueless Classic Shootout, the car is Camaro Z28 RM'69, if you are keen, you can be tester on the shootout as the car I entered uses the toe setting combination I often use +F/-R : the Camaro uses F 0.15 R -0.30

I have posted the tune there on page 4 This time the tune was made with ABS 1

 

[Motor City Hami]

Hi, MCH, I entered a tune for FITT Clueless Classic Shootout, the car is Camaro Z28 RM'69, if you are keen, you can be tester on the shootout as the car I entered uses the toe setting combination I often use +F/-R : the Camaro uses F 0.15 R -0.30

I have posted the tune there on page 4 This time the tune was made with ABS 1

Saw that car. Love the paint color selection. I also noticed that you wanted an old school look/feel/thoery to the tune with soft springs and high ride height. Do you think that either of these will have an effect on testing the toe settings? I guess the car could be driven with your current settings, no front toe, negative front toe, then same method of reversing the rear from negative to positive?

 

[trackripper123]

Personally I've always thought that:

-ve front toe: Sharper turn in, but poorer grip (mid-corner?) upon corner exit.
+ve front toe: Less sharp turn in, more grip (mid corner?) upon corner exit.

-ve rear toe: More oversteer, looser.
+ve rear toe: More understeer, more stable rear end.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Saw that car. Love the paint color selection. I also noticed that you wanted an old school look/feel/thoery to the tune with soft springs and high ride height. Do you think that either of these will have an effect on testing the toe settings? I guess the car could be driven with your current settings, no front toe, negative front toe, then same method of reversing the rear from negative to positive?

Yeah, sure, you can try various combination of toe settings on it, please do so, that's what I wanted to hear, what sort of changes to the car handling with those toe settings, while the rest are static.

About the car current setup with high ride and soft spring, I think it will be okay as long as they are static. What we are interested in is how toe affect handling on any given car/tune, to do that we need everything else stays the same, regardless if they are soft or hard, low or high.

These are the combination that would be interesting to test :
0F/0R
+F/0R
-F/0R
0F/-R
0/F+R
+F/+R
-F/-R
-F/+R
+F/-R
max+F/max+R
max-F/max-R
+0.50F/-0.50R
-0.50F/+0.50R

Looks a lot of work, I hope it's okay

 

[JackWilson]

Toe
Front
- Higher Numbers (+) = Increases front stabilty / increases understeer / more steering response / increases tyre wear
- Lower Numbers (-) = Increases front turn-in / increases oversteer / less steering response / less tyre wear

Rear
- Higher Numbers (+) = Increases rear stability / increases understeer / more traction / increases tyre wear
- Lower Numbers (-) = Decreases rear stability / increases oversteer / less traction / less tyre wear

 

[rosckolove]

I might change my opinion on negative front toe. After reading how stotty put it, I believe that a (-) value could be the best up front. For the reason that the inside wheel is on a tighter radius, and as stotty stated the outside wheel will reach the desired angle regardless of toe angle, but the inner wheel with (-) toe will help pull the front end through the corner rather then push against the desired direction.

I think I used positive front toe because the initial directional changes felt faster or more responsive. I will have to try (-) front toe again.

I will update when I get a chance to test.

 

[kleefton]

Toe
Front
- Higher Numbers (+) = Increases front stabilty / increases understeer / more steering response / increases tyre wear
- Lower Numbers (-) = Increases front turn-in / increases oversteer / less steering response / less tyre wear

Rear
- Higher Numbers (+) = Increases rear stability / increases understeer / more traction / increases tyre wear
- Lower Numbers (-) = Decreases rear stability / increases oversteer / less traction / less tyre wear

When i think about turn-in i think about the transition from going straight to aiming toward the apex. Once a car does that it has turned in, then either three things happen; oversteer, understeer, or a neutral behavior.

The way you worded your post it seems u are equating turn-in to oversteer. But that is not always the case.

 

[CSLACR]

I was thinking about this last night after I'd signed off... and I’m struggling to understand why –ve front toe would help turn in whilst +ve front toe would help with mid corner and exit speed. If –ve front toe helps turn in, why would it not help mid corner, unless it’s just perceived feel during the initial phase of cornering. My experience is the reverse of this (+ve front toe helps initially, but hinders mid corner)… or at least that’s how it felt to me pre 2.09 – I haven’t tried +ve front toe seriously post the update.

The more I think about it the more I conclude +ve front toe can only induce understeer when there’s lateral load on the tyre – the inside (relatively unloaded) tyre will be trying to scribe a shallower radius and working against the outside (loaded) tyre rather than helping it... and this effect should be consistent whenever there’s lateral load on the tyre, be it entry, mid or exit (although the magnitude of the effect may be higher with higher load levels).

I will of course test it out… and make sure I do it when I’m well in to a session, have a good feel for the car and running consistent laps. Hopefully I’ll get chance this weekend if my wife doesn’t have any plans for me.

But with negative toe you can't turn the outside wheel as much, and/or if you do, the inside wheel is turned extremely hard, which on fwd, can increase wheelspin.
How/why it makes rwd rotate better on exit I'm not sure.
My guess would be that with heavy rearward weight propulsion, the balance on the front wheels is usually more even, as you're not steering as much as you were mid-corner, in which case +ve toe adds traction.(before you exceed the limit)

Meaning in theory you could turn as hard on exit with -ve toe, but you'd have to steer so hard the rear would kick out. (because you'd need to transfer enough weight and steer enough for -ve toe to have more grip than +ve toe, which can exceed the tires limits itself)
It could be a "response" on exit issue, but what I'm certain of is that it improves my exit speeds on a lot of cars. (exit speeds are king for everyone tbh)

I might change my opinion on negative front toe. After reading how stotty put it, I believe that a (-) value could be the best up front. For the reason that the inside wheel is on a tighter radius, and as stotty stated the outside wheel will reach the desired angle regardless of toe angle, but the inner wheel with (-) toe will help pull the front end through the corner rather then push against the desired direction.

I think I used positive front toe because the initial directional changes felt faster or more responsive. I will have to try (-) front toe again.

I will update when I get a chance to test.

I disagree. The outside tire doesn't reach the same angle. It kind of does, if/when you turn the wheel harder. But if you do turn that hard, then the inside is turned even farther.

The wheels are working "against" each other, but they're both actively turning the vehicle towards the direction you want to go more.

The difference between the two, essentially, is the steering angle required for maximum grip.
-ve gives more grip with higher steering angles, +ve gives more grip with lower steering angles.

 

[rosckolove]

But with negative toe you can't turn the outside wheel as much, and/or if you do, the inside wheel is turned extremely hard, which on fwd, can increase wheelspin.
How/why it makes rwd rotate better on exit I'm not sure.
My guess would be that with heavy rearward weight propulsion, the balance on the front wheels is usually more even, as you're not steering as much as you were mid-corner, in which case +ve toe adds traction.(before you exceed the limit)

Meaning in theory you could turn as hard on exit with -ve toe, but you'd have to steer so hard the rear would kick out. (because you'd need to transfer enough weight and steer enough for -ve toe to have more grip than +ve toe, which can exceed the tires limits itself)
It could be a "response" on exit issue, but what I'm certain of is that it improves my exit speeds on a lot of cars. (exit speeds are king for everyone tbh)

I used to think that also. But why can't you? Your never going full lock with a wheel so just turn the wheel a couple degrees more.

With a DS3 the front wheels amount of turn in depends on speed. Its possible with a DS3 the outside wheel won't turn in as much, since it probably looks at steering angle as a whole and not the angle of the loaded wheel. That could be a straight up disadvantage for a pad user, besides input sensitivity.

A pad user may very well get more oversteer from a positive front toe angle, while a wheel user could get more oversteer and more overall grip from negative front toe. That would have to be tested though.

 

[Stotty]

Quick question to those 'using +ve front toe to increase exit speed'...

Do you feel that it increases/maintains the level of front end grip from apex to exit (vs -ve), or is it more that it enables faster exit because the car becomes more stable/easier to manage when you get on the power?

Ie; does +ve front toe really increase front grip or does it just make it easier for you to manage exit traction?

 

[CyKosis1973]

A pad user may very well get more oversteer from a positive front toe angle, while a wheel user could get more oversteer and more overall grip from negative front toe. That would have to be tested though.

My experience, with a DS3 and my fat, old thumbs, is that negative front toe produces oversteer. Which is welcome in FWD cars, but not so welcome with other drivetrains. Positive front toe makes the car much more stable going into a corner and provides fantastic grip from apex to corner exit (this is combined with positive rear toe, as mentioned further up this thread, I can barely drive a car with negative rear toe).

I'll leave it up to those that know better than I to explain why that's the case...

{Cy}

EDIT:

Quick question to those 'using +ve front toe to increase exit speed'...

Do you feel that it increases/maintains the level of front end grip from apex to exit (vs -ve), or is it more that it enables faster exit because the car becomes more stable/easier to manage when you get on the power?

Ie; does +ve front toe really increase front grip or does it just make it easier for you to manage exit traction?

See above 👍

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Quick question to those 'using +ve front toe to increase exit speed'...

Do you feel that it increases/maintains the level of front end grip from apex to exit (vs -ve), or is it more that it enables faster exit because the car becomes more stable/easier to manage when you get on the power?

Ie; does +ve front toe really increase front grip or does it just make it easier for you to manage exit traction?

I have been driving BMW Z4 M Coupe premium at Indy Road Course for Deadnutsevenracing next race on Monday, target time is 1:46 with SM tire. I am using +0.07F +0.07R toe, and I can say it provides great grip from entry to exit on some of the tightest turn there and some stability on the rear, I tried -0.07F -0.70R, it felt loose at the rear and front is less responsive only on some tight turns with more steering needed at times.

All done with other settings remain static, LSD is at 6/17/5. The BMW has 48/52 weight distribution, and running 460+PP

 

[praiano63]

TOE settings are important yes,, but they are not for me the main setting to fix a car after 2.09.
It's true just for some few cars that need extrem TOE settings , for example Lancia stratos rally or road car, respectively -0,45/+0,45 and -0,22/-0,18

In my opinion the main factor , the first thing to do is to balance the car with neutral TOE and camber on a good spring value front and rear.
After 2.09 most of the cars take more front spring than before.
Example a car with a weight repartition of 45%front-55%rear were taking for example a spring rate of 10 kgf-mm // 12 kgf-mm , will show now some under-steer with this value .
Need to add around 5 to 10% front spring to be balanced <-----> to agressive. Around 11 kgf-mm // 12 kgf-mm

After this you need to set good dampers and BAR value to maintain the car stable and steady on the road.

After this you set the LSD for a good entry and out corner.

And only after this you fine tune your TOE and camber settings to give the car his true definitive personnality.

More front + toe will give a sharp incisive car with good grip ,high precision direction input are needed. Can bring some oversteer out corner if the car have this tendency.

More front - toe will let your transition during a succession of turns smoother, tame the rear of a wild car and also bring understeer out corner if the car have this tendency. (Seems like a dead grip moment when the car loose weight on the front when out a corner under accel)

I only use rear toe to counterbalance the front toe, or to give some pivot with - or to maintain the rear inline with +

Camber go together.

This is how i do more or less. I don't have any procedure , or i have one but i don't realize that i follow one. It's automatic, just feeling. I spend all my free time doing this, this is my hobbie since some years now.

Have a good day everybody.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°

 

[Stotty]

Toe
Front
- Higher Numbers (+) = Increases front stabilty / increases understeer / more steering response / increases tyre wear
- Lower Numbers (-) = Increases front turn-in / increases oversteer / less steering response / less tyre wear

Rear
- Higher Numbers (+) = Increases rear stability / increases understeer / more traction / increases tyre wear
- Lower Numbers (-) = Decreases rear stability / increases oversteer / less traction / less tyre wear

This is pretty much my understanding too 👍

Although I don't think rear toe does anything to change traction.

My experience, with a DS3 and my fat, old thumbs, is that negative front toe produces oversteer. Which is welcome in FWD cars, but not so welcome with other drivetrains. Positive front toe makes the car much more stable going into a corner and provides fantastic grip from apex to corner exit (this is combined with positive rear toe, as mentioned further up this thread, I can barely drive a car with negative rear toe).

I won't comment on FWD cars as IMO, the way PD have modelled the handling on FWD cars (and to a slightly lesser extent, 4WD), is compete garbage. I never drive FWD and only drive 4WD if I have to for a specific Seasonal Event.

To me, the comments above indicate you need/use +ve front toe more to manage the rear of the car than the front.

Having a wheel & pedals and/or more skill at managing the throttle would likely lessen the need for this... the more skilled the driver, the more often/consistently they are able to pick up just enough throttle at just the right time to not get oversteer and thus maximise exit speed.

Eventually you get to a driver skill level where the rear almost becomes irrelevent as a 'problem', and just becomes an 'opportunity' to make the car faster.

IMO and IME, if you want to maximise the speed of the car around a lap it's always better to try and use other settings to make the rear of the car more manageable as opposed to giving up front end grip.

I am using +0.7F +0.7R toe

They are very extreme settings! I don't think I use more than +/-0.20 at either end of any car.

You wouldn't see such high values on cars with terminal levels of lift off or trail brake oversteer (such as the Yellowbird or Stratos). Surely such high levels of rear +ve toe aren't the best way to make the car lap quickly?

In my opinion the main factor , the first thing to do is to balance the car with neutral TOE and camber on a good spring value front and rear.

After 2.09 most of the cars take more front spring than before.

After this you need to set good dampers and BAR value to maintain the car stable and steady on the road.

After this you set the LSD for a good entry and out corner.

And only after this you fine tune your TOE and camber settings to give the car his true definitive personnality.

More front + toe will give a sharp incisive car with good grip ,high precision direction input are needed. Can bring some oversteer out corner if the car have this tendency.

More front - toe will let your transition during a succession of turns smoother, tame the rear of a wild car and also bring understeer out corner if the car have this tendency. (Seems like a dead grip moment when the car loose weight on the front when out a corner under accel)

I only use rear toe to counterbalance the front toe, or to give some pivot with - or to maintain the rear inline with +

Camber go together.

I use a different approach - for example, I never use the diff (decel) to control the stability of the car unless I have an issue I can't fix with other settings (but it is very rare this is the case).

Before I even run a lap I drop the front as low as possilble, set rear toe to zero, set the diff at 10/15/5, set camber to 2.0, 1.0, and increase aero to max
(only if the car has both front and rear wings).

I guess I should also mention that if I'm running to a PPT limit I will have max ballast at position 50 as a starting point too - though I'll exclude the effect of ballast from this discussion as I think it might over complicate things

Once I've done this I run a few laps purely to get a feel for the car, see how the car rotates on entry and how much front grip it carries through the apex.

I then adjust ride height/springs/dampers/toe/camber purely to get the handling balance and lateral grip front and rear as good as possible. If I think the car needs one I'll also add a rear wing and set it to 10 as a starting point. I only adjust the diff during this stage of the process if rear traction is such an issue that it's preventing me running consistent laps and thus preventing me from feeling how the other settings are affecting the car.

Once I have the balance I want and think I have maximised front grip, I fine tune the diff (primarily accel) only to maximise traction from the apex. This is a relatively simple thing to do as I find the optimum range on most cars is very narrow vs the starting point - almost without exception, my accel setting won't move more than 3 clicks from 15 in either direction (giving and effective accel range of 12-18).

 

[CyKosis1973]

I won't comment on FWD cars as IMO, the way PD have modelled the handling on FWD cars (and to a slightly lesser extent, 4WD), is compete garbage. I never drive FWD and only drive 4WD if I have to for a specific Seasonal Event.

I love FWD cars, I'd rather drive them than any other drivetrain. It's what I was brought up on and have always driven throughout my life. I appreciate that FR, MR and 4WD are almost always faster, but frankly, I couldn't care less. I just love driving FF cars.

To me, the comments above indicate you need/use +ve front toe more to manage the rear of the car than the front.

Yes and no, I've just found that since 2.09, most rear drive car with negative front toe over-rotate on corner entry, especially when combined with negative rear toe. Obviously there are other elements of the suspension that can muddy the waters.

Having a wheel & pedals and/or more skill at managing the throttle would likely lessen the need for this... the more skilled the driver, the more often/consistently they are able to pick up just enough throttle at just the right time to not get oversteer and thus maximise exit speed.

Eventually you get to a driver skill level where the rear almost becomes irrelevent as a 'problem', and just becomes an 'opportunity' to make the car faster.

Yeah, a wheel and pedals isn't going to much difference for me, unfortunately. My skill levels have plateaued and at the tender age of 40, I'm not going to get any better. I had a decent wheel setup for GT4, and whilst my laps were perhaps more consistent with a wheel, I wasn't really any faster.

The fact of the matter is, is that my skill levels leave me in the lower half of the pack, I know this and am quite comfortable with my place in the grand scheme. I'm never going to be able to drive proper "driver's" cars, which are constantly on the verge of disaster. I know they're faster than the sorts of cars I build, but it's no fun for me, sawing at the steering wheel and pumping the pedals. Positive toe front and rear solves this problem nicely for me, meaning I can get on with attacking corners.

IMO, it's always better to try and use other settings to make the rear of the car more manageable as opposed to giving up front end grip.

I don't think that front grip is sacrificed. Obviously, as mentioned above, there are many other elements to suspension and car building in general. As it turns out, I build my cars in a similar fashion to Praiano. I don't have a bible that I conform to, but there are a few things I almost always do.

Matching weight distribution and spring strength, for instance. Adding 5-10% extra spring to the front of the car. Dampers and ARBs, nothing too drastic, certainly not since 2.09. Soft enough COMP to absorb bumps and rear squat, not so hard at the front that the car pushes wide nor so hard that the rear slips. Reasonably high EXT, to reduce nose lift, aiding corner exit and to keep the rear in check from entry to apex. Simple stuff, but none of which, IMO sacrifices front grip. The amount of grip needs to be balanced between front and rear, for me.

If I do all of the above and then add negative toe, it's like the car turns into a Z List Celebrity on skates

{Cy}

 

[Stotty]

I Yeah, a wheel and pedals isn't going to much difference for me, unfortunately. My skill levels have plateaued and at the tender age of 40, I'm not going to get any better. I had a decent wheel setup for GT4, and whilst my laps were perhaps more consistent with a wheel, I wasn't really any faster.

I understand your points and where you're coming from 👍

Though I'll be 46 in a few months time, so age isn't necessarily a barrier

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

They are very extreme settings! I don't think I use more than +/-0.20 at either end of any car.

You wouldn't see such high values on cars with terminal levels of lift off or trail brake oversteer (such as the Yellowbird or Stratos). Surely such high levels of rear +ve toe aren't the best way to make the car lap quickly?

Damn, I made a grave mistake there, it should be +0.07F +0.07R toe

 

[Stotty]

Damn, I made a grave mistake there, it should be +0.07F +0.07R toe

I did wonder!

 

[rosckolove]

I never look at how easy a car is to control, If I tune for that I am slowing the car down. I don't care how crazy it gets as long as it goes like it should.

I usually do what Stotty stated. I maximize front end grip (and rear) as much as I can and then I apply (-) toe and reduce camber at the rear until the car rotates just a little more than is needed.

Theoretically 0 to (-) front toe should provide the best overall front grip and best rotation. I can't wait to try it out.

Stotty, so far I agree with your statements the most, and they make the most sense to me. You should do a write up on how you tune the left side of your suspension. I am highly interested in your method/opinion.

 

[CyKosis1973]

I understand your points and where you're coming from 👍

Though I'll be 46 in a few months time, so age isn't necessarily a barrier

There's far too many old basturts playing this game

A friend and I tested fairly extensively in GT4 with a wheel vs controller; neither of us substantially improved our times, but did conclude that consistency improved.

Once my wife and I have done a bit more work on the house, I'll likely invest in another wheel setup. Once we've got a kitchen, we'll be converting the far end of the lounge into a gaming zone (aaah, the benefits of being child-free, all the toys are mine, MINE I TELL YOU..!!!).

{Cy}

 

[praiano63]

There's far too many old basturts playing this game

A friend and I tested fairly extensively in GT4 with a wheel vs controller; neither of us substantially improved our times, but did conclude that consistency improved.

Once my wife and I have done a bit more work on the house, I'll likely invest in another wheel setup. Once we've got a kitchen, we'll be converting the far end of the lounge into a gaming zone (aaah, the benefits of being child-free, all the toys are mine, MINE I TELL YOU..!!!).

{Cy}

I'm 50 , i receive message all the time from people of 65 even77 years old. This is the magic of this game. Don't worry , i feel like a kid too.
The first time i play GT it was in 2000 for christmas. My kids win a PS1 with GT1 as christmas gift. After i tested it just been curious, they couldn't touch their game during 2 weeks because i was playing day and night.
................. Till now

><(((((°>°°°°°°°

 

[Taz69]

What are you guys doing ride height,spring,dampers and roll bars to get MAX front grip.. Loosening up or tightening up the rear is easy. But what gives MAX front grip on those 4 things?

 

[Motor City Hami]

What are you guys doing ride height,spring,dampers and roll bars to get MAX front grip.. Loosening up or tightening up the rear is easy. But what gives MAX front grip on those 4 things?

Kind of the wrong thread for this question. This thread is focused on toe settings.

 

[CSLACR]

Quick question to those 'using +ve front toe to increase exit speed'...

Do you feel that it increases/maintains the level of front end grip from apex to exit (vs -ve), or is it more that it enables faster exit because the car becomes more stable/easier to manage when you get on the power?

Ie; does +ve front toe really increase front grip or does it just make it easier for you to manage exit traction?

When my car is understeering off the track on exits, positive toe makes it turn and stay on the road.

I know it "works", I just don't know if it's the "best" method.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I ran both positive toe front and rear on my ST205 Celica GT4 Rally Car and Lancia Delta HF Integrale road car, they work great at Indy Road.

 

[rosckolove]

Ridox. You drive the craziest cars on the slickest tires available. I'm not even sure toe makes a difference at all for you lol...

I think toe settings wouldn't be changed much from track to track, Not as much as ride height dampers or spring rates.

Anything works great on comfort tires after you get used to it. was +f +r the fastest for you, or did it just work?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Ridox. You drive the craziest cars on the slickest tires available. I'm not even sure toe makes a difference at all for you lol...

I think toe settings wouldn't be changed much from track to track, Not as much as ride height dampers or spring rates.

Anything works great on comfort tires after you get used to it. was +f +r the fastest for you, or did it just work?

I usually started the tune with comfort tires, so toe settings were based on that, because on these tires, the toe changes can be really felt. Those + toe works best for me, suited my driving style ( no ABS - trail braking ), not necessarily the fastest, it all depend on the tire, car behavior and track

 

[rosckolove]

I wasn't taking a stab at you. I just feel like your car selection is insane haha.

I think we are all interested in whats fastest. Ease of control doesn't matter.