2021 FIA Series Race Discussion

[Michelin Man]

How do you figure?

I like every race in Manu because I pick a car I enjoy driving and I like the format of the seasons as I explained above, but your theory is that I like it because it's the best car on Bathurst let's say.

I prefer Manu even if my car is never the meta at any point during the season because I like the format and I want to pick car(s) for a season and stick to them. I don't want to learn and practice a new car each week.

Exactly this.

Manufacturers is more favourable due to the relative variety of people picking different cars. Nations can often end up as one-make META races with a lot of the combos; ignoring the actual one-makes which are fun. Which if that's what one prefers, then power to them, but it can get stale very quickly.

It just seems silly to enter a contest knowing before you even start that whatever you pick will suck half the time, and you’ll be going into races with a fairly big disadvantage at times. When in reality, every race could be evened out.

To be honest I feel you're making it out to be worse than it is. It's really never that bad. I can't speak for those at higher levels, but its rare to get cases of a clear META obliterating the field, that its never been an issue I've found. It's not like daily races where you can get a 15+ strong field of one superior car. Besides, "evening things out" isn't a guarantee of improving things. Not that the Manufacturers cup is bad-it's not really. You will still end up with those at the front, perhaps finding loopholes to gain an advantage (perfectly normal, granted). The car variety and differences ends up as more of a level playing field than one might expect.

Both classes aren't too badly balanced, Gr.3 is the closest its been for a while. You're bound to get some cars excelling at certain tracks, its swings and roundabouts. But even then there's many variables that change the state of a race, so all are in with a chance. It's part of the racing. Not to mention the inter-manufacturer battle. It's a season-long venture, you can't have it all the same each race, but that's the fun.

META is a term thrown around a lot, if you can't drive a car properly to extract the performance, its relative. Only have to look at Bracer this season, who's picked Mitsubishi; not renowned for being the best car(s). Yet as one of the best in the world, he's able to put the Evo on the leader boards. An extreme example, but you get the idea.

I've stuck with Honda since the very first test season in 2017, and was terrible early on (I'd argue I still am ). But with each season I learned how to drive them better, and improve thanks to help along the way. The NSX has never been the clear choice, but I enjoy the underdog-type situation. Ultimately if I'm enjoying the racing that's all that matters. You take the rough with the smooth, and results come after that. No point stressing over the situation 👍.

 

[Groundfish]

To be devils advocate, in a one make the cars capability is the exact same for every track sector.
With good drivers overtaking is very limited. It can get to every drivers online every drivers good pace, the cars can’t outbrake each other, every good player runs the best strategy....It turns into a Supra series with everyone trying to win it all lap one...Sometimes.
With differing vehicles with strengths in different sectors more overtaking happens, more battling.
Lots of times on the leaderboards you see a one make...Then Fraga or others use something different and gain a few tenths...Not every driver puts their all into every car to learn how to make the time in that car. Sure take gr4 Panorama for the longest time, no matter what you couldn’t overtake the Megane. In cases like that a track bop nerf should be done. Beyond that I think things are better than they’ve been in a long time from what I can tell.

 

[Pigems]

To be devils advocate, in a one make the cars capability is the exact same for every track sector.
With good drivers overtaking is very limited. It can get to every drivers online every drivers good pace, the cars can’t outbrake each other, every good player runs the best strategy....It turns into a Supra series with everyone trying to win it all lap one...Sometimes.
With differing vehicles with strengths in different sectors more overtaking happens, more battling.
Lots of times on the leaderboards you see a one make...Then Fraga or others use something different and gain a few tenths...Not every driver puts their all into every car to learn how to make the time in that car.

I’d argue that Manu having OP cars on a given track leads to more aggressive driving. People go in knowing that this race is my best chance all season to score points because its the best track for their car. Leading to people shoving their way through because this is the only race they can do good at this season.


@Michelin Man I’m really not. I have 5 accounts and sign with a different Manu on each one every season to compare cars over the season. When the same driver is over 1s or more apart in different cars on the same track at any given time, that’s a pretty big difference. Over a 20 lap race I’d be 20+s behind myself in two different cars. If that’s not a big difference, than I don’t know what is? If the cars were truly as even as people think, then dailies and open class races wouldn’t then into one makes every single time. You’d see more variety because more cars would be viable on any track, but that’s not the case. Dailies go 1/2 make by Tuesday most weeks.

 

[Groundfish]

I’d argue that Manu having OP cars on a given track leads to more aggressive driving. People go in knowing that this race is my best chance all season to score point because it’s good/op here. Leading to people shoving their way through because this is the only race they can do good at this season.

Agreed that happens, but I am an anti meta strategy guy all the time in dailies etc. At my level I like my chances given that I know my car in and out and how to race it over most players choosing whatever is on the top ten board.
Most times nobody runs laps at those times in race.
I guess ultimately run what’s fun
There’s nothing forcing a person to enter every race. No one thinks less of anyone choosing not to race a certain class or series. It’s very tough to be at the top everywhere all the time. For me it’s not a possibility...

 

[RacingGrandpa]

I have never sat down and thought about what car fits this track or that track best and chosen my manu by that.
I run the Ford Mustang in both Gr4 and 3 knowing that they are not the best cars on any track. I still choose them because I love driving them. I love the sound and the feel of them.
Of course I still try to do my absolute best but it's more important to me to have fun.
If I was all about winning I wouldn't be driving Gran Turismo Sport because I am never going to be among the best.
But I love to race...

 

[Pigems]

I have never sat down and thought about what car fits this track or that track best and chosen my manu by that.
I run the Ford Mustang in both Gr4 and 3 knowing that they are not the best cars on any track. I still choose them because I love driving them. I love the sound and the feel of them.
Of course I still try to do my absolute best but it's more important to me to have fun.
If I was all about winning I wouldn't be driving Gran Turismo Sport because I am never going to be among the best.
But I love to race...

So, you wouldn’t enjoy the game even more if you knew your Mustang was legit competitive on every track of the season? Vs only 1/2 tracks in a season?

 

[RacingGrandpa]

So, you wouldn’t enjoy the game even more if you knew your Mustang was legit competitive on every track of the season? Vs only 1/2 tracks in a season?

Not necessarily. There's something about doing well from an underdog position

 

[Groundfish]

So, you wouldn’t enjoy the game even more if you knew your Mustang was legit competitive on every track of the season? Vs only 1/2 tracks in a season?

There’s no Found On Road Dead car that’s competitive everywhere anywhere in the world LOL

 

[Timm Sheehan]

@Groundfish You mean "First on Race Day" don't you?

 

[stpatty]

I drive Nissan in Manu because I've always driven Nissan. I like knowing there will be tracks where they have an advantage and I have the chance to lead from the front, I like knowing there will be tracks where they're poor and I have to drag it round. There's always a range of cars in the races so you're a lot less likely to be line astern for a whole race as everyone's in the same thing.

 

[Groundfish]

@Groundfish You mean "First on Race Day" don't you?

Lol At least they are American, even if they have to be Fixed Or Repaired Daily

 

[kungtotte_]

Dailies don't turn into one makes because one car is OP, it does that because people are lemmings.

It's especially noticeable in Gr2 races. Everyone is running the 2016 GT-R but the Lexus is just as good.

 

[Pigems]

Dailies don't turn into one makes because one car is OP, it does that because people are lemmings.

It's especially noticeable in Gr2 races. Everyone is running the 2016 GT-R but the Lexus is just as good.

Not really, have you ever spent a day running a bunch of different cars in a daily TT? There can literally be whole seconds of difference from one car to the next. Cause I’ve literally spent entire weeks doing Nothing but the daily TT’s, and I’m sure my driving ability has some to do with the difference, but it’s definitely not all of it.

 

[Timm Sheehan]

Lol At least they are American, even if they have to be Fixed Or Repaired Daily

I always thought they went hand-in-hand, in order to be "First on Race Day" they must be "Fixed or repaired daily".

 

[xxPinkyKissxx]

a big issue at this track is also drivers hitting the walls in the twisty section. Had twice that cars unghosted right in front of me after a mishap, costing me a lot of time.

think it is a shame if this race turns out to be another tyresaving drive. Would have prevered that PD would have made both soft and medium mandatory.

Saw you having a good fight in lap two, actually missed my braking point because of that because I was more busy watching your progress then the corner ahead....after that it all went downhill a bit for me. "Luckily" my wife had diner ready around lap ten so had to quit or have my diner cold.

You’ll have nothing to worry about in the race. You’re wayyy faster than I am on this track so far!!

 

[Kermit_2142]

I'd agree that it's impossible to be perfect, but it's definitely less impossible to be pretty close in a game simply because you have an infinite capacity for simulated runs.

You wouldn't even need to have the races play out in real time - you can just simulate it. They could use tweaked AI which runs as fast and consistent as possible (and GTS AI can do this already; they're just not set that way), which eliminates the real-world issue of human sandbaggers. Simulate a few thousand race runs with each car on its own*, find what's in the middle, then dial the cars in with further simulated runs until they're within the margin you want (a second would be fine, half a second would be great) at the chequered flag. Job jobbed.


The problem with that is it only really simulates the cars at beyond alien performance. Great for superstars races and world tours, not so great for the majority of people in the majority of races. That could be solved too, at least to a reasonable extent - you could take every race time in a given car at any track, and pluck the middle out (could be the mean, or the zone that covers the middle 25-30% of players), tweak the AI to run that speed and then dial the cars in until the cars are within the margin you want of that time - then adjust for tire/fuel in that particular race.

As we're talking about per-race-BOP, there's no problem changing it for Top 16 Superstars races or World Tours either - instead of tuning BOP to the middle, tune it to the top however many percent (1% or less, probably), or revert to the max-AI I mentioned above.


*You don't want other cars interfering with it, really; that will of course result in slipstream affecting the race times, but with all the cars theoretically so close that should balance out.

Yes for sure they can run simulations to nail down lap times or even a race distance.

Can they simulate a realistic race using multiple compounds, proper overtaking, fuel/tyre saving, someone randomly throwing an undercut to get out of traffic etc etc.

Given pretty much every race is a new combo with varying multipliers I can’t imagine they have the ability to simulate an unlimited number of scenarios.

So yes I agree they could get the bop closer than it is and if they wanted they could bop per track for x lap time but over a real race simulation I don’t think it’s possible.

This is why some series use a success ballast or reverse grid as there will always be a meta car/team.

Maybe I just like that it isn’t balanced, it’s great to see the underdog punching above its weight especially at the cost of an OP team.

Let’s say they could nail it 100%. Wouldn’t that take away some of the spark/drama? Would it become boring? I know by the end of the week dailies seem to stagnate with everyone switching to the meta having tried different combos through the week.

Love both series either way, PD nailed it to be fair to them .

 

[kungtotte_]

Yeah I'm not saying there's no difference between cars, but the daily one make effect is absolutely people being lemmings.

Gr2 is the easiest example since there are only three cars to compare ('08s aren't on the same playing field). The GT-R is always the one true car but the Lexus is just as fast.

Take any daily race and I guarantee there's at least four or five cars that are competitive and work well on that combo but everyone gravitates to just one because it's got a lot (or all) positions on the top 10 board.

Just look at your own testing before Manu. F-type versus Vantage. In a daily race it'll be just one of them seen everywhere but you saw the difference in pace between the two is really marginal.

Tl;dr: there's never just one car that's objectively the fastest, it's just people following trends.

 

[Kermit_2142]

I’d argue that Manu having OP cars on a given track leads to more aggressive driving. People go in knowing that this race is my best chance all season to score points because its the best track for their car. Leading to people shoving their way through because this is the only race they can do good at this season.


@Michelin Man I’m really not. I have 5 accounts and sign with a different Manu on each one every season to compare cars over the season. When the same driver is over 1s or more apart in different cars on the same track at any given time, that’s a pretty big difference. Over a 20 lap race I’d be 20+s behind myself in two different cars. If that’s not a big difference, than I don’t know what is? If the cars were truly as even as people think, then dailies and open class races wouldn’t then into one makes every single time. You’d see more variety because more cars would be viable on any track, but that’s not the case. Dailies go 1/2 make by Tuesday most weeks.

One lap isn’t a full race run, in a competitive lobby though. Would be real interesting if you could table up your race times for each round in different cars

 

[Pigems]

One lap is a full race run, in a competitive lobby though. Would be real interesting if you could table up your race times for each round in different cars

A full race time is very driver dependant. A single lap time can be evened out over all cars. How you choose to race that car is up to you, and will effect your race time. But you would at least know if fully capable if you put the time in.

Like, when I see for example a guy like Roadbeef down at #21 on my friends list this week, it’s not because he doesn’t know the track, it’s because his car is probably garbage at that track.

 

[Kermit_2142]

A full race time is very driver dependant. A single lap time can be evened out over all cars. How you choose to race that car is up to you, and will effect your race time. But you would at least know if fully capable if you put the time in.

Like, when I see for example a guy like Roadbeef down at #21 on my friends list this week, it’s not because he doesn’t know the track, it’s because his car is probably garbage at that track.

Overall race time is all that matters though, pole position doesn’t win you the race. In all fairness most times in a Manu race it’s not the pole driver that takes the win so having the fastest car over one lap is irrelevant.

 

[Pigems]

Overall race time is all that matters though, pole position doesn’t win you the race. In all fairness most times in a Manu race it’s not the pole driver that takes the win so having the fastest car over one lap is irrelevant.

Not in the upper splits. Watch any world tour race, the pole sitter usually runs away the moment P2/P3 start fighting. As soon as the slipstream gets broken, it’s race over for anyone behind that point in the majority of races.

 

[OJBrit]

You’ll have nothing to worry about in the race. You’re wayyy faster than I am on this track so far!!

View attachment 997300

How will you ever catch him?

 

[05XR8]

For multi-car choice Nations, make them Shuffle Races.

 

[Groundfish]

I always thought they went hand-in-hand, in order to be "First on Race Day" they must be "Fixed or repaired daily".

Well played! They are both favorites of mine

 

[Jwptexas]

Well played! They are both favorites of mine

I won't drive anything but Ford most of the time and I've done well for myself. I'd say it's definitely underrated as far as I don't ever see any out on the track with me.

It's not the best Manufacturer by far. I usually find myself working twice as hard as next guy for similar times in the higher DR bracket.

Just for reference... it can take me 10-20 laps to absolutely nail my qualifying lap meanwhile in something like Jaguar I've already bested my time after just 2-3 laps

 

[Groundfish]

I won't drive anything but Ford most of the time and I've done well for myself. I'd say it's definitely underrated as far as I don't ever see any out on the track with me.

It's not the best Manufacturer by far. I usually find myself working twice as hard as next guy for similar times in the higher DR bracket.

Everyone at Bathurst was stuck in vettes but I did very very well there in my Stang!
The gr4 is a BEAST. For me on wheel both cars drive the same, they reward a very calm slow smooth touch loading the tires very smoothly in turns. They have that weight, they don’t reward you if you try to horse them around.
They have a lot in common with the vettes which I also like. I’m to a point now, I can get a time from an mr but it’s way too much work re the wheel. With those you’re dancing more, more twitchy, not confidence inspiring.
On wheel I like having that aura of very calm gentle slow inputs, looking out at the battles like what are these lunatics doing LOL

 

[Jwptexas]

Everyone at Bathurst was stuck in vettes but I did very very well there in my Stang!
The gr4 is a BEAST. For me on wheel both cars drive the same, they reward a very calm slow smooth touch loading the tires very smoothly in turns. They have that weight, they don’t reward you if you try to horse them around.
They have a lot in common with the vettes which I also like. I’m to a point now, I can get a time from an mr but it’s way too much work re the wheel. With those you’re dancing more, more twitchy, not confidence inspiring.
On wheel I like having that aura of very calm gentle slow inputs, looking out at the battles like what are these lunatics doing LOL

This last BOP update PD leaving the GT4 Mustang alone while bringing a few others down a peg has really helped it out, imo. I definitely like the car a lot and it's got a loose rear end unlike the Jaguar for instance. It's the Gr3 Mustang I tend to stay away from like the plague while I stay in the GT LM.

 

[05XR8]

The Mustang really is fun again. It was great at Tsukuba RAce B. Had a nice result at Autopolis as well.

 

[Jwptexas]

The Mustang really is fun again. It was great at Tsukuba RAce B. Had a nice result at Autopolis as well.

I can only speak on behalf of DS4 but it really is loose in the rear especially thru 2nd gear, from the other FR cars similar that I tested that didn't seem to be the case. Jaguar, Corvette, Viper etc.. most of those cars all hook up really well out of the low speed corners but with the GT4 Mustang I can feel the difference.

 

[Seth_Logan]

I thought of something today. Instead of telling you all how my race went (very well, thank you) I would like to ask all experienced and/or helpful drivers to just pick a random lap/minute from my race and make one, I only ask for one, comment on something you see me do that could use improving. Could even be Interlagos, the one before. Place it in the comments, send via inbox, put it here... whatever you want.


I’m just C rated and there is so much to learn: better braking, smarter driving, left or failed to see opportunities, no trail breaking where I should... a lot. But at some point it gets harder to see improvements by yourself if you don't know what it is you should look for.


The reason I'm asking this was actually inspired by James Dilley's latest stream in which he spends the better half of five hours explaining all kinds of details about the races he was in. It made me look back at my last races and wonder... "just how often do I lift without purpose" and "why does my car understeer at that particular part of the track or... "how come I think "I feel" that going in 5th gear in the esses is the best way to build up speed, but I don't actually have proof that it helps".

There is so, so, so much to learn. The curve is soooo steep.

Thank you for your help and interest.

btw I'm sorry the video is without comment and unedited... that's yet another thing I want to learn In case you might feel that is boring here is the accompanying soundtrack... I do the livery sponsorship after all (or look me up on Spotify)

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1fQsaiDTovdofqHmCIfOhP?si=NIZdpmKBSpOgz2BOOCmlVw

- Fools Overture by Supertramp
- Spitfire by PSB
- Another one bites the dust by Queen
- God gave me everything by Mick Jagger
- Champagne Supernova by Oasis

All Brits

Cheers,

Seth