2025 Formula 1 Constructors threadFormula 1 

  • Thread starter Jimlaad43
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Sooooo....

What is it?

A: They fired Horner now and rather quickly because Max demanded it / Merc talks are pretty advanced and they see a higher chance of keeping him without Horner.

B: Max is already gone and they blame Horner for it.

?
 
After taking this all in, I guess it's safe to say that red bull is as ruthless to their team principal as they are with their drivers....how many red bull drivers have either seen their F1 career coming to a complete stop or has gone down the crapper because of those mid season drops/swaps or whatever...all happened under Horner's leadership...and now, what do you know? What goes around really does come back around and he gets a dose of his own medicine, dropped abruptly, mid season after 20 faithful years to red bull. I really dislike the guy although it hasn't always been that way cause I thought he was alright when I started watching F1 back in 2012 and as happy as I am to see him go, as the longest serving team principal and one of the most successful one too, the timing just feels so odd.
 
AshenGraey
After taking this all in, I guess it's safe to say that red bull is as ruthless to their team principal as they are with their drivers....how many red bull drivers have either seen their F1 career coming to a complete stop or has gone down the crapper because of those mid season drops/swaps or whatever...all happened under Horner's leadership...and now, what do you know? What goes around really does come back around and he gets a dose of his own medicine, dropped abruptly, mid season after 20 faithful years to red bull. I really dislike the guy although it hasn't always been that way cause I thought he was alright when I started watching F1 back in 2012 and as happy as I am to see him go, as the longest serving team principal and one of the most successful one too, the timing just feels so odd.
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It just has to have something to do with Merc/Max. It's either the consequence of Max leaving or an attempt to keep him.
 
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Horner getting fired mid season has to be to try and keep Verstappen at the last minute before he signs a contract, unless there’s some new scandal.

The team is failing, lost key personnel, and Horner has made some bad management decisions. They spent millions to fire Perez only to replace him with worse drivers. They made a huge investment to build their own engines that will look like a stupid waste of money without Newey or Verstappen around.
 
FoxMulder
They made a huge investment to build their own engines that will look like a stupid waste of money without Newey or Verstappen around.
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Speaking of, it's gonna be interesting to see what happens with Ford now given that Horner was the one spearheading the effort to bring them in. I'm guessing his presence on the team wasn't a prerequisite for their involvement, but I imagine such a hasty action is going to raise some eyebrows over in Blue Oval land.
 
This reeks of a Jos Verstappen play. Mark my words, Max will stay at RB for next year, and this was the insurance.
 
Can someone explain the problem Jos has with Horner? This has apparently been a point of contention for years, since Vertappen joined RB, but back then Horner had everything under control, then went on to be the only ones to fight Mercedes to a title win and then dominate the 2022-2025 ruleset (oh noes they only won 80% of the championships, boo hoo).

If RB fired Horner to keep Max, they better have Max under contract because of this. Otherwise they fired the most successful team principle to not keep their star driver. Horner is a decent chance to rebuild a team over the 26-30(?) regs, good luck trying to build a functioning team around Max, it's pretty obvious at this point that's actually impossible.
 
TBR 427
Can someone explain the problem Jos has with Horner? This has apparently been a point of contention for years, since Vertappen joined RB, but back then Horner had everything under control, then went on to be the only ones to fight Mercedes to a title win and then dominate the 2022-2025 ruleset (oh noes they only won 80% of the championships, boo hoo).

If RB fired Horner to keep Max, they better have Max under contract because of this. Otherwise they fired the most successful team principle to not keep their star driver. Horner is a decent chance to rebuild a team over the 26-30(?) regs, good luck trying to build a functioning team around Max, it's pretty obvious at this point that's actually impossible.
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I think Jos Verstappen is an irrational narcissist sociopath and his own legacy has become so intertwined with Max that any moment that Max isn't dominating it's like his universe is collapsing. Lashing out at Horner makes sense through this lens, despite everyone else seeing what's happening now as a pretty momentary dip in RB's (and Max's) otherwise substantial success.
 
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Redbull were fine whilst they were winning, both in the Verstappen era and the Vettel era, it's when the wheels come off the wagon that the cracks start to show.

Horner was fine when Dietrich Mateschitz had his back, but when he died it was only a matter of time before he got ousted IMO. There's clearly been a lot of bad blood and toxic behaviour inside Redbull in recent years, that and with a downturn in form on track, it's caused a lot of talent to leave which only makes matters even worse.
 
ShonnDaylee
If only Red Bull could have figured out a way to sack Jos, instead... Sadly Max and Jos are a package deal. Therein lies the real problem.
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Don’t forget Marko. Jos and Max are close to him as well, & Marko has the Red Bull family in his corner. Once the rumors that the Thai owner was open to change, I think Horner lost all his chips.
 
TBR 427
Can someone explain the problem Jos has with Horner? This has apparently been a point of contention for years, since Vertappen joined RB, but back then Horner had everything under control, then went on to be the only ones to fight Mercedes to a title win and then dominate the 2022-2025 ruleset (oh noes they only won 80% of the championships, boo hoo).

If RB fired Horner to keep Max, they better have Max under contract because of this. Otherwise they fired the most successful team principle to not keep their star driver. Horner is a decent chance to rebuild a team over the 26-30(?) regs, good luck trying to build a functioning team around Max, it's pretty obvious at this point that's actually impossible.
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Jos is close with Marko and just has been causing a power struggle since the start because he’s one of those awful parents of athletes that live through their children’s success. He even had clashes over Sainz and his father at Toro Rosso. Horner tried to keep Jos away from the track years ago too because of the drama.
 
McLaren
Don’t forget Marko. Jos and Max are close to him as well, & Marko has the Red Bull family in his corner. Once the rumors that the Thai owner was open to change, I think Horner lost all his chips.
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I couldn't forget that dried up old prick if I tried... Now, if we could get Vettel to replace Marko we'd really have something.
 
McLaren
[Erik van Haren] Stories that Verstappen demanded Horner's sacking are dismissed as utter nonsense. Just like the notion that Red Bull now has a guarantee that he will stay

To my understanding, Erik is the main source out of the Verstappen camp. Maybe this just is the Red Bull/Thai ownership fed up. There's a new report the chief marketing officer Oliver Hughes & group director of communications Paul Smith are also gone.
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The Thai side has had it out for Horner for a long time. The Texting Scandal (or whatever you want to call it) just gave them a good reason to start pushing for his oust from RB. So, this has been coming for a while. The down turn in form just helped them all get together on the idea enough to make it actually happen. Still, I'm sure Jos had a few words to say (to Marko and the Thai owners)... and they weren't necessarily in favour of Horner. I'm sure a lot of people had a little hand in the final outcome, when it's all said and done.
 
Surprised to see Horner go before the end of the season, or even the summer break, but Red Bull sacks drivers after a couple of races, so... 😮
 
A mid-season dismissal for such a seasoned and successful member of the team is very strange. You can draw your own, better comparison if you'd like to but it's like Liverpool sacking Jürgen Klopp during a mid-season slump or Ferrari dismissing Schumacher halfway through the difficult 2005 season.

The team clearly don't have any morals about him being a creepy pervert so other than the Verstappen angle, is there any chance that the team's inability to field two successful cars has finally caused the top brass to lose patience?
 
ShonnDaylee
The Thai side has had it out for Horner for a long time. The Texting Scandal (or whatever you want to call it) just gave them a good reason to start pushing for his oust from RB. So, this has been coming for a while. The down turn in form just helped them all get together on the idea enough to make it actually happen. Still, I'm sure Jos had a few words to say (to Marko and the Thai owners)... and they weren't necessarily in favour of Horner. I'm sure a lot of people had a little hand in the final outcome, when it's all said and done.
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During the whole scandal, it was the Thai owner who was protecting Horner b/c he has majority control & owed much of Red Bull's success to Horner.
 
McLaren
[Erik van Haren] Stories that Verstappen demanded Horner's sacking are dismissed as utter nonsense. Just like the notion that Red Bull now has a guarantee that he will stay

To my understanding, Erik is the main source out of the Verstappen camp.
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Oh man, if this is any indication that Max is moving over to Mercedes then I'd hate to see this happen. Having Mercedes and Max respectively dominate the sport for the past decade has been tiring enough already, can you imagine their run together?! And that's not mentioning Max's attitude.
 
McLaren
During the whole scandal, it was the Thai owner who was protecting Horner b/c he has majority control & owed much of Red Bull's success to Horner.
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They've always had a dicey partnership. As long as he was performing, they tolerated him. They've never really liked the guy, as shown by years of fighting between Horner/Marko/Thai ownership. They liked his results. Not him. All they needed was Red Bull to have a prolonged dip in performance to get the rest on board with getting him out. In the end they want someone who will play ball. Not fight everything they try and implement. Is it the right decision? I would say probably not, but we'll see if Mekies can right the ship. He's done quite well with Racing Bulls. Then again, so did Liam and Yuki. Only time will tell if Horner was the real issue. The fact that he was able to get the team 8 drivers championships and 6 constructors championships, across two different engine regs, suggests that it probably isn't him that needs replacing at Red Bull. I think they removed the wrong guy (MARKO!), but what do I know? 🤷‍♂️
 
I feel like it would be a big shame to see Russel dropped to make way for Max. Hes pretty consistently been a great member of that team, he was able to go toe-to-toe with Lewis, especially toward the end of that partnership, and hes currently having a fantastic season for them too. I know its not really about whats "fair", but George has earned his No.1 driver position at Mercedes if you ask me.
 
Aphelion
I feel like it would be a big shame to see Russel dropped to make way for Max. Hes pretty consistently been a great member of that team, he was able to go toe-to-toe with Lewis, especially toward the end of that partnership, and hes currently having a fantastic season for them too. I know its not really about whats "fair", but George has earned his No.1 driver position at Mercedes if you ask me.
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Similarly, Ferrari probably shouldn't have dropped Sainz, but that's F1. Not that I don't totally agree with your assessment. Russell certainly has earned his seat, and then some. However, with two seats someone has to go, and I just don't see them dropping their new big investment (Antonelli). If anyone loses their seat to make way for Max, it will be Russell.
 
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ShonnDaylee
but we'll see if Mekies can right the ship. He's done quite well with Racing Bulls. Then again, so did Liam and Yuki. Only time will tell if Horner was the real issue.
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none of the previous teams ever progressed other than stayed stagnant
 
ShonnDaylee
They've always had a dicey partnership. As long as he was performing, they tolerated him. They've never really liked the guy, as shown by years of fighting between Horner/Marko/Thai ownership. They liked his results. Not him. All they needed was Red Bull to have a prolonged dip in performance to get the rest on board with getting him out. In the end they want someone who will play ball. Not fight everything they try and implement. Is it the right decision? I would say probably not, but we'll see if Mekies can right the ship. He's done quite well with Racing Bulls. Then again, so did Liam and Yuki. Only time will tell if Horner was the real issue. The fact that he was able to get the team 8 drivers championships and 6 constructors championships, across two different engine regs, suggests that it probably isn't him that needs replacing at Red Bull. I think they removed the wrong guy (MARKO!), but what do I know? 🤷‍♂️
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The Thai owners have always been in Horner's corner, regardless. Chalerm made an appearance alongside Horner directly in the middle of the scandal; if they didn't like him, that would've been a perfect opportunity to sack him which is what Jos/Marko reportedly wanted Mateschitz to do, but couldn't without Chalerm's approval.

The reason Horner got the axe instead of Marko or anyone else, was the same reason other team principals get the axe. They're the leader of the team & are the easiest to place fault with, whether it's warranted or not. Same with any other professional sports team when a coach is the easiest target to remove first. In this case with the car plateauing midway last season, they could argue Horner hasn't done enough to address the issues, instead choosing to chuck Liam & Yuki into the car which only revealed fault within' the car even more. Certainly doesn't help key figures left for other teams.

I don't think removing Marko would do anyting other than rile Max & Jos. The car still retains all its issues. Despite Erik's report, I'm inclined to believe that power struggle during the scandal has still played a role here b/c there were talks about Max leaving the team then as well, but everything blew over and everyone held their position.

Edit* It is reported that Chalerm recently sold 2% of his ownership, putting him on equal footing with the Austrian family ownership. This is speculated to have meant Horner no longer had his "protection" & the new board was able to go through with Horner's departure following a reassessment.
 
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