End of the road for manual shifters?

[Pebb]

Source: AutoCar

Toyota has revealed that the traditional 'boxes are proving difficult to match to the complex power cycles of new petrol/electric hybrid engines, and so are likely to be unsuitable for its hi-tech traction control systems, too. Cars such as the new Auris, which currently come in manual form, will eventually only be available as autos.

The firm's latest concepts, including the LF-A, IS-F and FT-HS hybrid,all offer automatic or sequential manuals, which industry insiders believe signals the end of stick-shift cars.

Gradual withdrawal of conventional manuals is being driven by another less obvious force, with sales across the world dropping as congested roads convince drivers to steer away from traditional transmissions. Among the new technologies on offer are torque converting 'boxes, robotised manuals that use hydraulic motors to switch ratios, and CVT and i-CVT units that employ special chain and belt driven set-ups.

However, even some of these systems could be under threat, as the speeds offered by fully electric engines far exceed those offered by petrol and diesel powerplants.

Meanwhile, BMW looks set to introduce an eight-speed automatic gearbox to its 7-Series range for 2009. The set-up - similar to the seven-speed offering on the firm's M5 - will put BMW on a par with Lexus' multi-cogged LS460.

 

[Wolfe]

Give me a DSG and I'll still be willing to buy a newer car.

This article is pretty bunk, though.

The firm's latest concepts, including the LF-A, IS-F and FT-HS hybrid,all offer automatic or sequential manuals, which industry insiders believe signals the end of stick-shift cars.

The manual transmission dies because Toyota insists on putting its hybrid system on every new concept they come up with, even if the concept either never makes production or doesn't have the hybrid system when it hits showrooms? I guess Toyota is the entire automotive industry, now, and auto shows are the consumer market.

Gradual withdrawal of conventional manuals is being driven by another less obvious force, with sales across the world dropping as congested roads convince drivers to steer away from traditional transmissions.

It'll steer them away from BMW's SMG cars, too.

Among the new technologies on offer are torque converting 'boxes, robotised manuals that use hydraulic motors to switch ratios...

You mean a "torque converter" and "sequential manual?" Neither are particularly "new," especially the torque converter.

However, even some of these systems could be under threat, as the speeds offered by fully electric engines far exceed those offered by petrol and diesel powerplants.

Huh? Sure, an electric car uses a completely different kind of drivetrain, but "speed" (whatever the author meant by that) has nothing to do with it. Also, you can't have an "electric engine," much less a "partially electric" one. It's an electric motor.

Meanwhile, BMW looks set to introduce an eight-speed automatic gearbox to its 7-Series range for 2009. The set-up - similar to the seven-speed offering on the firm's M5 - will put BMW on a par with Lexus' multi-cogged LS460.

Is it an automatic, or an SMG? It can't be an automatic and similar to the M5's SMG. Since when does any company need to build an 8-speed transmission to be on a par with any car? How is it significant that the LS460 has more than one gear?


This seems more like the dribble you'd find in some newspaper, not an automotive-focused publication.

 

[inferno]

electric motors can actualy be made to spin pretty fast relativly cheaply, given that they have no reciprocating parts. it's like a rotary kind of. heck the motor in my cheapy $100 RC car spins to 18,000 rpm. i would assume thats what they meant by "speed"

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> If manual-tranny's are endangered (since the next Evo will be a DSG-type), looks like the '07 STi that I'm planning on getting will be my last car that I will get, because it has a M/T.

 

[Tornado]

The firm's latest concepts, including the LF-A, IS-F and FT-HS hybrid,all offer automatic or sequential manuals, which industry insiders believe signals the end of stick-shift cars.

So, a transmission set a series of cars designed, but never produced, for geriatric old people upgrading from Buick's; will spread like a disease across the industry?

 

[1X83Z]

YAAAAAAAY!!!

Originally the only argument in favor of automatics was that they were easier than manual, but now that performance is swinging in favor of automatic, there's little reason to get manual. I wish every car came with Ferrari's F1 transmission - or at least the cars I bought did - but that's some ways off.

Go away

That's more like it

 

[Tornado]

YAAAAAAAY!!!

Originally the only argument in favor of automatics was that they were easier than manual, but now that performance is swinging in favor of automatic, there's little reason to get manual. I wish every car came with Ferrari's F1 transmission - or at least the cars I bought did - but that's some ways off.

Just because you can't or won't drive stick doesn't mean that others don't enjoy it over other forms of shifting.

 

[1X83Z]

Just because you can't or won't drive stick doesn't mean that others don't enjoy it over other forms of shifting.

A photo of perfection:

 

[Tornado]

A real photo of prefection:

 

[1X83Z]

Let's compromise:

 

[MistaX]

Just because you can't or won't drive stick doesn't mean that others don't enjoy it over other forms of shifting.

You know, you're right. He can't, never has, and refuses to.

 

[Jondot]

Bah, personally I can't stand automatics. Not that I've ever used either, but I hate how they shift so silently. I want to hear every change, but that's just me.

I would have thought Toyota were chopping the manuals because most of their sales are either to pensioners in Britain or to Americans who buy the Camry because they want to sit back and cruise. There's a few exceptions to my theory, of course. Nobody wants an automatic Celica, surely.

 

[1X83Z]

You know, you're right. He can't, never has, and refuses to.

I can drive this very well though:

And do you see all those notches? They're so people think they have a manual. They fooled me - my Volvo had that and for six months I thought I had a manual. Then someone told me you actually have to shift for it to be considered a manual, and that simple notches in the different gears of the automatic don't count.

I thought I could prove him wrong by showing him that I, too, could drop it from neutral, but when I tried, my radiator burst.

****ing Volvo.

but I hate how they shift so silently. I want to hear every change, but that's just me.

You should buy a Volvo 850 Turbo. Not only can you hear each shift, but when the shift occurs and it's cold outside you're jammed back into your seat with the force of a minor collision.

 

[Tornado]

There's a few exceptions to my theory, of course. Nobody wants an automatic Celica, surely.

That's why no one bought the Celica in this country.
Also, Honda said they sold an Automatic NSX, but I refuse to believe anyone bought one.





Doug? Column shifters are awesome.

 

[1X83Z]

That's why no one bought the Celica in this country.
Also, Honda said they sold an Automatic NSX, but I refuse to believe anyone bought one.

BELIEVE!!!!

And no one bought the Celica because it was crap, not because it was only quick in manual. Hell for like 20% more, you could've had a GTO.

 

[Tornado]

BELIEVE!!!!

Those are obviously Acura TL's with NSX floormats. The simple idea of anyone owning an NSX slushbox is the cause of all terrorism in the world.

And no one bought the Celica because it was crap, not because it was only quick in manual. Hell for like 20% more, you could've had a GTO.

That is a flawed comparison because it could be applied to every hot hatch, especially the crappy tC that replaced the Celica. Hell, for 10% more than the price of a Honda Civic Si you can own a Mustang. Whoop de doo.

 

[1X83Z]

Those are obviously Acura TL's with NSX floormats. The simple idea of anyone owning an NSX slushbox is the cause of all terrorism in the world.

I've never seen an Acura TL with air conditioning vents on the door.

Then again I've never seen any normal car with air conditioning vents on the door. Lesson to be learned, here, Acura? Hmmmm?

That is a flawed comparison because it could be applied to every hot hatch, especially the crappy tC that replaced the Celica. Hell, for 10% more than the price of a Honda Civic Si you can own a Mustang. Whoop de doo.

Yeah but the Civic Si is fast. The best 0-60 the Celica ever got was mid-sevens.

 

[TB]

I just bought an '07 Civic last week. I had the choice of a manual or automatic tranny, obviously. My wife kept pushing for the auto because it gets better gas mileage (note: only on the interstate and even then only by 2mpg's). In the end, we got the manual. Why? 1) I refuse to believe that an auto can get better mileage in town than a manual. 2) Manuals are exponentially more fun to drive. and 3) a 140hp, 30mpg Civic needs all the help it can get.

That said I was completely floored that of all the Civics on the dealers lot, there was exactly ONE that was a manual. I would be willing to bet that there are currently none.

Congratulations, majority, for ruining it for the rest of us. 👎

 

[Danoff]

Gradual withdrawal of conventional manuals is being driven by another less obvious force, with sales across the world dropping as congested roads convince drivers to steer away from traditional transmissions.

I own a manual, and I have to admit that traffic bothers me with it. The more congested the area, the more I don't like my manual transmission. Plus it sucks that my wife can't drive my car when I need her to.

A far-off goal for me is to own a corvette - as a midlife crisis sort of thing. I can see wanting an auto-box in the 'vette, as long as it had shift buttons on the steering wheel.

 

[Tornado]

I've never seen an Acura TL with air conditioning vents on the door.

I've never seen an Acura TL with Honda NSX floormats, either, but to each his own.

Yeah but the Civic Si is fast. The best 0-60 the Celica ever got was mid-sevens.

Wrong.
The Celica GT-S pulled 6.8 at the hands of Road and Track. The current Civic Si pulled the exact same time in Car and Driver. The Civic that the Celica actually competed with pulled 7.6 seconds. I also have no doubt that the Celica outhandled both of them.

 

[1X83Z]

Congratulations, majority, for ruining it for the rest of us. 👎

Congratulations go to you for destroying your own resale value and hurting the overall resale value of Civics in general by 0.000000000001%.



By the way, I agree - automatics getting better gas mileage than manuals? Come on. CVT auto maybe but even then it's a stretch. The thing about manuals is that you can control your speeds and more importantly your engine speed - lots tougher to do in an automatic. I know the technology is advancing, but it's not overtaken manuals for efficency just yet. However, it's quite possible that stuff like DSG has.

I've never seen an Acura TL with Honda NSX floormats, either, but to each his own.

You really think the outgoing Celica could outhandle the present Civic Si?

 

[TB]

Congratulations go to you for destroying your own resale value and hurting the overall resale value of Civics in general by 0.000000000001%.

Jealous much?

 

[1X83Z]

Jealous much?

I admit, I am. I do like the new Civics a lot. What model did you get?

 

[Tornado]

You really think the outgoing Celica could outhandle the present Civic Si?

It certainly weighed about 250 lbs less and was generally well loved by everyone for the same reasons the Acura Integra was (lack of oversteer, body roll, accurate, good feedback, etc.). The only real detriment I can see is that the tires aren't as wide.

 

[TB]

I admit, I am. I do like the new Civics a lot. What model did you get?

Nighthawk Black Pearl EX Coupe.

 

[1X83Z]

It certainly weighed about 250 lbs less and was generally well loved by everyone for the same reasons the Acura Integra was (lack of oversteer, body roll, accurate, good feedback, etc.). The only real detriment I can see is that the tires aren't as wide.

Were the suspension setups similar?

Nighthawk Black Pearl EX Coupe.

I'm not as big a fan of the coupes as I am of the sedans, but it's a good-looking car either way. How are you enjoying it?

 

[Tornado]

Were the suspension setups similar?

They are somewhat similar. The Celica had MacPherson struts in the front and double wishbones in the rear, whereas the current Si has MacPherson struts in the front and Multilinks (double wishbones with trailing arms) in the rear.
And my 0-60 time for the Celica wasn't the fastest: Motor Trend took the GT-S to 60 in 6.6 seconds.

 

[TB]

I'm not as big a fan of the coupes as I am of the sedans, but it's a good-looking car either way. How are you enjoying it?

So far, so good. We've only put 120 miles on her so far and it's still hovering around 0° F so I haven't been able to open the sunroof, unlike Famine, and bask in all it's glory yet, but that'll come. It's sole purpose is to get us to work and back, so for that, it fits the bill perfectly.

 

[Duke]

You should buy a Volvo 850 Turbo. Not only can you hear each shift, but when the shift occurs and it's cold outside you're jammed back into your seat with the force of a minor collision.

...for 1.3 seconds, then you slouch forward under the deceleration force caused by shrapnel pinging around inside your transmission.

Except you aren't, because your car actually got itself towed to the shop that morning instead of letting you drive it.

 

[Kent]

Chill fellas.
Big deal, Toyota is showing signs of switching primarily to automatics. No suprise there.

According to some sources, the 1ZZ-FE Corolla engine I drive (1.8l,79mmbore, 91mmstroke) was built with an automatic transmission as the ideal mate. (that possibility is also supported by the stroke&bore on the 2ZZ-GE)

When Toyota considers the sales for a "daily driver" they pay attention to what sells. If they've been selling fewer and fewer manual transmissions then they are simply moving the company in the direction they feel will be most successful.

That said, this doesn't mean Toyota will stop production of manual transmissions. Not all cars are hybrid, economy, dailydrivers. Sports cars may still be in the future for Toyota (dodges tomatos)... But that recent Yaris sports car posted in this forum looked good.

Point is... This is just a combonation of trends leading to false fore-sight.
This is not the future for "cars in general" (although it may be for a few specific models along the hybrid-daily-eco cars).

Oh, btw, if that Volvo was anything like my '83 Merc 300 SD then I've felt the pain!
Well, maybe not, I had a really nice seat.

Also, about auto vs manual fuel economy... it's all about the conditions in which you test.
In the real world, many people with a manual transmission don't want to run low RPMs because they aren't good about avoiding vibrations on acceleration. Because of that you might find that manu. gets lower MPG due to the more consistant use of high RPMs.
That's just a thought though, don't mind me.