Did the Fat Lady Really Sing? The Phaeton to Return to America (Probably Not. Dieselgate, Yo)

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YSSMAN

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I have to say that the news is somewhat shocking, particularly with the track-record of the Phaeton in America...

LLN.com
Volkswagen intends to reintroduce its Phaeton luxury sedan to the U.S. market, according to VW of America spokesman Andreas Meurer. Mr. Meurer made the announcement during an interview with Bloomberg.

Adrian Hallmark, the company's Executive Vice President, said VW expects its U.S. operations to break even in 2009. He said sales in 2007 would be flat, while the company focuses on preparing new models for 2008 and 2009.

Volkswagen pulled the Phaeton from the U.S. market in late 2005 due to poor sales. It's unclear when the Phaeton will return to America. Meurer said it would be reintroduced when the next version goes on sale worldwide.

It's not known if Meurer was referring to the facelifted 2008 Phaeton — revealed last week and on sale this summer — or the next-generation model due some time after 2009.
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3volkswagenphaetonfacelqa7.jpg


As one of the bigger VW guys on these boards, I guess I'd have to say that I'm somewhat happy to see the car coming back... But then again as a realist when it comes to the American market, I do have to ask what exactly they are thinking. I mean this car sold poorly... Not just poorly, but oh my God they couldn't move them worth anything, and they sat and sat and sat until the last few dried up a year ago. Even worse, the resale values put the $70K car in free-fall mode, in some cases nearly halving the value of the car in a year. A good used car buy? You bet. Brand new? You've got to be kidding...

But I liked having a true flagship at VW, and the Phaeton certainly filled that role. However, I think VW overshot where they should have been with the car. Even if they came back with the exact same car as before, they need to turn the price down to make it seem like a better deal. If the pricing started in the $40K range, it would have made a lot more sense, as it would have been a logical step forward from the Passat in size and luxury.

...So we'll see. As noted, it is unclear if we're getting the model we've already had (albeit with improvements) or the all-new model next year...
 
The thing is when it comes to a car this size Brand name is important , over here people would go for a Merc or BMW , and in 2nd comes either Audi or Lexus . VW is not know for selling these type cars if they want it to sell I think they need to change the imgae of the people's car
 
They can’t sell a “facelifted” version here – it has to be something all-new, unless they’re raving mad.
 
So, this is the same chassis that underpins the Audi A8? If VW pits it against the full size models from ford chevy and dodge, i can see them pulling that off. No need to make it into a high class model, as said already the VW name cant carry something like that here. They already have the A8 anyway...
 
I also agree that brand name(emblem on the grille) is a huge factor. Honda, Nissan and Toyota knew what they had to do, and this is why I don't get why Volkswagen continues to gamble on with Phaeton, when they already run Audi. Perhaps they don't like that the A8 aren't able to takeover the market or something?

If VW is really bringing back Phaeton to the States, I would bring them in in a limited number. Just enough to satisfy the demand, and go from there.
 
GO AWAY BIG BEETLE

I have a friend who's seriously considering purchasing one used. You can get a decent '04 V8 for about the same as a new 2-liter Passat with an automatic transmission. Hmm - Volkswagen whose navigation screen pops up from the wood dash with wood covers that hide the air vents when not in use, or Volkswagen with hubcaps?

Such a tough choice.
 
Hmm. I don't know. If VW cheapened it up a bit, this car would definitly do well. I think that it will get blown away if it tries to run with the likes of the S class, A8, BMW 7, Jag XJ/whatever and company. Audi has been a sort of premium VW, let the Phaeton fill the traditional VW role. The Beetle and Bus have given VW a bit of a trendy/funky flair, and I think it would be cool for them to make a big sedan like that.
 
Size wise, it would make an interesting competitor to the larger American sedans from Buick and Cadillac, as well as the upcoming MKS from Lincoln, etc. That said, they would have to cut the prices down to $40-50K, and not let the engine rise above eight cylinders.

...Would they do it? Its hard to say. Maybe if they made the platform a bit more adaptable and allowed for a large-ish RWD sedan, they could get some cool things out of it. If Chrysler has proven anything with the 300C, it is that larger sedans with RWD are still a lucrative market in America, and VW certainly could play an interesting role in that segment...

Problem is, VW has to commit to doing it. Maybe they could strap the Phaeton name on a re-badged version of the Porsche Panamera?
 
It's a fantastic car, no doubt, but it's an answer to a question no one is asking. It'll still be seen as a big Passat. And the Toyota/Lexus statement is even more relevant, since VAG already has this brand: Audi. Until Audi's A8/S8 makes a right turn into nowhereville, the Phaeton has no place in any market.
 
You guys continue to miss the point of Volkswagen. That's okay because everyone does - me included.

According to Volkswagen, they're aiming at Mercedes, while Audi's aiming at BMW. The problem is, no one sees it that way.

Yet.
 
M5Power
You guys continue to miss the point of Volkswagen. That's okay because everyone does - me included.

According to Volkswagen, they're aiming at Mercedes, while Audi's aiming at BMW. The problem is, no one sees it that way.

Yet.
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...Thats the exact opposite they are telling the dealers then. My good friend Tom at Gezon VW was telling me about how they have decided to ratchet-down the "luxury" a bit and get back to "where they're supposed to be."

With that I would infer that VW is supposed to be some quasi-Acura fighter. Almost luxury, but not quite... Or at least the most luxurious models avilable in their given class...

I can't complain. If they want to sell me a Rabbit three-door for $14,995 with build quality that is seen in some low-lying luxury products from Japan, I'd be happy to get one...
 
Yeah, if VW really is aiming at Mercedes, they should just drop it now. They are wasting their time and resources.
 
YSSMAN
...Thats the exact opposite they are telling the dealers then. My good friend Tom at Gezon VW was telling me about how they have decided to ratchet-down the "luxury" a bit and get back to "where they're supposed to be."
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Thank God. That's where they belong.

With that I would infer that VW is supposed to be some quasi-Acura fighter. Almost luxury, but not quite... Or at least the most luxurious models avilable in their given class...
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Acura's intent is to be sporty - somewhere Volkswagen never will be.

I can't complain. If they want to sell me a Rabbit three-door for $14,995 with build quality that is seen in some low-lying luxury products from Japan, I'd be happy to get one...
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Don't make me bring out that C43 on AutoTrader again...
 
a6m5
Yeah, if VW really is aiming at Mercedes, they should just drop it now. They are wasting their time and resources.
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:D:tup:

So VW and Audi are trying to enter this as completely separate companies? As far as I can tell, the BMW and MB are competitors, and their differences are slight. I'm not sure as to why VW would be one-upping Audi either.

One company entering two cars to compete against two different cars that are really trying to do the same thing.:boggled: Might as well have one car between the two, only with different badges, similar to Opel and Saturn. Maybe VW should pick another car to challenge, one that isn't as similar as the Beemer and the Benz.
 
M5Power
You guys continue to miss the point of Volkswagen. That's okay because everyone does - me included.

According to Volkswagen, they're aiming at Mercedes, while Audi's aiming at BMW. The problem is, no one sees it that way.

Yet.
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I don't think even VAG gets it. If Audi is aiming at BMW, then what is Mercedes doing with AMG? If VW is aiming at Mercedes, what's the deal with the R36/R32/GTI? To me, it seems like both Audi and VW are confused as to which division is supposed to do what, they're both stumbling over each other (and the rest of the brands), and miraculously making some very nice cars in the end, many of which naturally sell in large numbers. The evidence of this mass confusion is the utter sales failures like the Phaeton and A2.

I don't know if Winterkorn (is he heading things now?) has made any headway in clearing this disaster, but I hope someone does soon. Perhaps the takeover from Porsche should let someone put the hammer down.
 
harrytuttle
I don't think even VAG gets it. If Audi is aiming at BMW, then what is Mercedes doing with AMG? If VW is aiming at Mercedes, what's the deal with the R36/R32/GTI? To me, it seems like both Audi and VW are confused as to which division is supposed to do what, they're both stumbling over each other (and the rest of the brands), and miraculously making some very nice cars in the end, many of which naturally sell in large numbers. The evidence of this mass confusion is the utter sales failures like the Phaeton and A2.
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Superb analysis. VAG is definitely confused, and perhaps in exactly this way. I really think Volkswagen should play the game as an upmarket Toyota, leaving Audi to deal with Mercedes and BMW. The only problem is it really hasn't got the cachet that either of those brands carry, shown in the resale values of the A8.
 
If the Phaeton doesn't sell in the US market then where the hell does it sell?

- i've seen a grand total of one in the UK.

No one in their right mind would buy a Phaeton over it's stable mate the Audi A8. You want a large luxury saloon, you buy a 7-series or an S-class Merc. If you want to be a little more subtle, you buy an A8 not an oversized Passat. Even if you really want blow your money on something with a VW badge, you get a V10 Tourag.
 
TheCracker
If the Phaeton doesn't sell in the US market then where the hell does it sell?
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Apparently they sell well in Europe, or at least thats what they told us... So by "Europe" I'd have to assume Germany. And from what I understand it was the V6 model that sold the best...
 
I really dont understand this....

Anyone know the commercial on the air right now...

"Three V-Dubbs Under 17,000"

Yet they might bring back a vehicle 5 times as much?

Dont get me wrong, the Phaeton is one of the nicest VW's every made, but they cant expect to sell anymore than they did the first time around.

The only positive of these cars would be their resale value (not if you're the seller, however), if you can pick up a used one less than 40K, its basically a steal.

Maybe they are REALLY pushing "brand loyalty", but in a lot of cases "brand loyalty" on the VW forums means upgrading to Audi, or keeping it "old school"
_____

A quick edit after reading a bit more on here...

IMO, wouldn't Audi be competing with Mercedes if they were already competing with BMW? There is enough competition between those two to offer every driver-genre about 3 cars to choose from with about 37 thousand trim levels.

Also, I would argue that VW DOES have a slightly sporty side to them, the .:R badge and the G(T/L)I, yet this is nowhere on the level of other car brands. I would also say VW is competing with Toyota's CAR market (because their TRUCK market is obviously aiming at the US-Big 3) as well as Honda's CAR market.

Overall, VW please dont waste your resources sending the overpriced VW back stateside. Yes, it is a nice vehicle but if you have 70K to spend, why not spend a few more thousand for the Audi?
 
YSSMAN
Apparently they sell well in Europe, or at least thats what they told us... So by "Europe" I'd have to assume Germany. And from what I understand it was the V6 model that sold the best...
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There's a common line in the electronics industry that sales rep's will use along the lines of "it's real big on the west coast". It's never true, but since you're on the east coast, they think it's unlikely that you'll check out anyone in L.A.. They also don't think that you already heard the same thing -- only with east & west reversed -- from some guy in Seattle.
 
Actually that's vaguely true - the Phaeton was never cancelled in Germany as it was here and over half its sales were - and continue to be - in that country. However we're still talking about 14,000 sales over a four-year period (versus a paltry 3,000 U.S. sales from 2004 to 2006).
 
New Phaeton will be all-electric.

MUNICH -- Volkswagen Group said it will reduce investment spending at the VW brand by 1 billion euros ($1.1 billion) a year, as well as switch to a different diesel emissions treatment technology and launch an all-electric Phaeton sedan as the flagship for a new focus on electrification.
VW will increase its focus on long range plug-in hybrids and high-volume electric vehicles with a range of up to 300 km (186 miles), the company said in a statement today. The automaker also said it will speed up cost cuts and will overhaul the VW brand model strategy.
...
The shift includes redesigning the Phaeton as an all-electric model. The current model’s gasoline and diesel versions will be axed. The next-generation Phaeton is due to hit showrooms by about 2019-2020.
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[Source]
 
^Yeah I think we can safely clear that one up now :lol:

The Phaeton is really cool, and all electric one would be a sight to behold.
 
Sage
They can’t sell a “facelifted” version here – it has to be something all-new, unless they’re raving mad.
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gesundheit-thumb.jpg


Edit: Just noticed how old that post is. :lol:
 
Robin.
The Phaeton is really cool, and all electric one would be a sight to behold.
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It's an all around great car. My dad's got one, actually, and it's amazing that you can get that much luxury as cheap as a (used) Phaeton. Mostly because people are so sensitive to the car's brand and can't fathom driving a flagship-kind of car with a VW badge on it. I quite like the understatement, personally.

That said, it's not quite the kind of car that'd fair well with its range being limited by battery capacity I don't think. It didn't sell well before and I can't imagine it's going to do any better as an EV.
 

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