A Question Of Tires

[Jetboy.]

The title's really vague and I didn't know what else to say, so sod it.


Scenario: Given the tires of today, do you think the old Sub-8 minute Nürburgring record would have been beaten long before the Skyline in '97?

Give it some thought. 👍




Cheers,
Jetboy

 

[///M-Spec]

I've been looking (off and on) for years for details of the sub 8 minute R33 GT-R. I've consistently read it was modified but no one seems to know what the exact mods were.

If we were to assume the GT-R in question was wearing slicks and had a tune along with an open exhaust, then I think any number of late 80s/early '90s supercars could have a decent shot at doing the same --assuming similar levels of modification.

I would even venture out on a limb and say a 964 Turbo 3.6 with.. say a set of Pilot Sport Cup tires and a tweaked suspension, can cut a sub 8. (a 996 Turbo can do it in 7:56 on street tires) Of course, you'd probably need to put someone like Walter Röhrl or Hans Stuck in the driver's seat.

I also strongly suspect even without today's tire technology, a Porsche 959 or Ferrari F40 could have made a sub 8 minutes lap if someone were to make a serious effort to do it.


M

 

[Keef]

When most people compare the F40, for example, against a GT-R, usually they'll agree that the Ferrari is a league above the Nissan in performance. Nowadays, F40s are too valuable for most owners to race on a track like Nurb, or else someone would have done it already.

I wonder how much better a McLaren F1 would handle if it had a set of PS2s or something similar. I don't know what they had originally, but they looked like they belonged on a truck!

 

[Jetboy.]

Well, granted, you're both correct: I believe that the F40, the McLaren, and quite possibly the older Countach could have done it, but I was wondering even older... And without fiddling with the suspention's conniptions.

Could, say, a 427 Cobra have done it, on a set of Eagle F1's, PS2's, ZR's, etc.. ? Maybe even some of the older Jaguar's?? I just really want to know what you guys think: How early could it have been done.


Cheers,
Jetboy

 

[Jay]

I've consistently read it was modified but no one seems to know what the exact mods were.

I checked up on the car ages ago and from memory the only mods they did to it wasith the electronics to remove the 180km/h speed limiter. Though there could be more, details are vague.

Nowadays, F40s are too valuable for most owners to race on a track like Nurb, or else someone would have done it already.

That doesn't stop the countless F40's that are being raced on classic road rallies here in Australia, one was even destroyed (driver killed) years ago.

 

[YSSMAN]

Could, say, a 427 Cobra have done it, on a set of Eagle F1's, PS2's, ZR's, etc.. ? Maybe even some of the older Jaguar's?? I just really want to know what you guys think: How early could it have been done.

Thats a tough one to call right there. I think a semi case-in-point would be looking at the current crop of kit Cobras and Daytona Coupes and the amount of performance they offer. The 'modern' tires on the Daytona allowed for pretty decent performance in the recent C/D test, braking from 70-0 in 153 feet, cornering up to 1.12 g, and flying though the lane-change at 72.4... All on R-rated Khumo Ecsta V710s. Granted, the size makes-up for the so-so performance rating, but I'm certain that the Daytona Coupe of today would easily outdo the Daytona of yester-year.

It would likely come down to the driver and the type of tire I would suppose. But without a 'solid' suspension underneath the car, no matter how good of tires you throw at a given vehicle, it will only corner as well as the suspension allows it. Quite frankly, its part of the reason why I haven't bought high-performance tires for my Jetta, as without the high-strength anti-roll bars and the stiffer springs, they wouldn't add much to the overall drive...

 

[niky]

Thats a tough one to call right there. I think a semi case-in-point would be looking at the current crop of kit Cobras and Daytona Coupes and the amount of performance they offer. The 'modern' tires on the Daytona allowed for pretty decent performance in the recent C/D test, braking from 70-0 in 153 feet, cornering up to 1.12 g, and flying though the lane-change at 72.4... All on R-rated Khumo Ecsta V710s. Granted, the size makes-up for the so-so performance rating, but I'm certain that the Daytona Coupe of today would easily outdo the Daytona of yester-year.

It would likely come down to the driver and the type of tire I would suppose. But without a 'solid' suspension underneath the car, no matter how good of tires you throw at a given vehicle, it will only corner as well as the suspension allows it. Quite frankly, its part of the reason why I haven't bought high-performance tires for my Jetta, as without the high-strength anti-roll bars and the stiffer springs, they wouldn't add much to the overall drive...

True. There is a benefit, though, even for your Jetta... but it'll just make you more aware of the car's shortcomings in terms of handling. I wasn't planning on doing suspension mods to my car... at least not until I actually bought really serious tires for it, and now it grips so hard that it actually reaches the edge of body control before the edge of grip. I prefer slippery tires, myself... they can make any crappy old car feel like a cornering hero...

I suppose brand-new R-Compounds wouldn't flatter an original Cobra 427 very well... and the edge of adhesion would be so far beyond what the body can take that losing any grip at all at any time would end the lap in a most spectacular fashion.

 

[///M-Spec]

I checked up on the car ages ago and from memory the only mods they did to it wasith the electronics to remove the 180km/h speed limiter. Though there could be more, details are vague.

So the car was a bone, showroom stock R33 GT-R with just the limiter removed? Really? Not even an N1?

My respect for the GT-R not withstanding, I don't see an otherwise stock R33 on OE tires cutting a sub-8. A 993 Turbo on street tires doesn't break into the 7s and that's a car with a 95hp horsepower and 200 lb. weight advantage.

I'd say at a minimum, it would need a set of Yokohama A032R (or whatever was the barely legal R-comp tire Yokohama was producing back in '97) and a significant boost in power or loss of weight.

True. There is a benefit, though, even for your Jetta... but it'll just make you more aware of the car's shortcomings in terms of handling. I wasn't planning on doing suspension mods to my car... at least not until I actually bought really serious tires for it, and now it grips so hard that it actually reaches the edge of body control before the edge of grip. I prefer slippery tires, myself... they can make any crappy old car feel like a cornering hero...

I suppose brand-new R-Compounds wouldn't flatter an original Cobra 427 very well... and the edge of adhesion would be so far beyond what the body can take that losing any grip at all at any time would end the lap in a most spectacular fashion.

Good post! +rep


M

 

[TheCracker]

A 1993 Jaguar XJ220 did it in 7:46. It was done in 2000 but was probably in original spec including tyres.

I wonder how much better a McLaren F1 would handle if it had a set of PS2s or something similar. I don't know what they had originally, but they looked like they belonged on a truck!

Theres a British MacLaren F1 owner who has had his modified to run on the same size and type of tyres as an Enzo. It was recently run in a group test at Bedford Autodrome where it lapped a little quicker than an Enzo but slightly slower than a Carrera GT.

 

[Jetboy.]

True. There is a benefit, though, even for your Jetta... but it'll just make you more aware of the car's shortcomings in terms of handling. I wasn't planning on doing suspension mods to my car... at least not until I actually bought really serious tires for it, and now it grips so hard that it actually reaches the edge of body control before the edge of grip. I prefer slippery tires, myself... they can make any crappy old car feel like a cornering hero...

I suppose brand-new R-Compounds wouldn't flatter an original Cobra 427 very well... and the edge of adhesion would be so far beyond what the body can take that losing any grip at all at any time would end the lap in a most spectacular fashion.

Very good point! I honestly didn't think of it qute in those terms, but looking in GT4, it holds true, no matter the tires, the suspention still has its limitations. Not of course, that it doesn't help. 👍



Cheers,
Jetboy

 

[Jay]

So the car was a bone, showroom stock R33 GT-R with just the limiter removed? Really? Not even an N1?

I don't know, it may have had some tweaks like a boost increase and sticky rubber, but from what I read a couple years ago only pointed to a removal of stock speed limiter.

Doing a real quick google now check now comes up with a UK source that says it was done on slick tyres.

 

[niky]

Theres a British MacLaren F1 owner who has had his modified to run on the same size and type of tyres as an Enzo. It was recently run in a group test at Bedford Autodrome where it lapped a little quicker than an Enzo but slightly slower than a Carrera GT.

Love that article:

"May I remind you that the chassis stinks, it has no downforce, and the brakes don't work. But it's got a good engine!"

Lightness still trumps sophistication, I guess...

 

[Keef]

Here's a nifty battle between the R34 GT-R and 996 Turbo. The weights are similar, but the Porsche's power outclasses the GT-R by nearly 100, along with having wider tires. But the doesn't really matter because the GT-R's tires are just better. They show a closeup of the 911's tires--older Pirelli PZeros. I'm not sure what the GT-R has, but they're probably some sort of R-Compound.

 

[Jay]

Here's a nifty battle between the R34 GT-R and 996 Turbo. The weights are similar, but the Porsche's power outclasses the GT-R by nearly 100, along with having wider tires. But the doesn't really matter because the GT-R's tires are just better. They show a closeup of the 911's tires--older Pirelli PZeros. I'm not sure what the GT-R has, but they're probably some sort of R-Compound.

The GTR and Evo VII kept up very well, just couldn't keep with the 996 turbo's 440hp on the straights, you can't say the Skylines GTR's tyres are better as you don't know what they were (this is a pretty old vid so 'older tyres' are expected on both cars)

 

[Keef]

That's a good point. I don't actually know what kind of tires the GT-R had. But I still have a feeling they were s step above the ones on the Turbo, because those asian companies have a thing for throwing the stickiest rubbers they can on their performance cars.