AI discussion thread

[mister dog]

Just import Arcade AGG10 AI to Aspec simple. GT has to be the ONLY game that is more challenging in Arcade mode (damage depletion aggressiveness and very even matchups.

Basicly that's the right conclusion 👍, GT mode is only useful to collect all those damned cars, only when you enter arcade mode you'll encounter the fun and challenging races you seek for.

Just took the Spirra on the ring at '6 o clock in the morning, sun coming through the trees, 15 opponents that drive at a good steady pace, having to be on the money to make it to first place...

Why i even bother with GT mode or seasonals anymore, i got all cars and i should stick strictly to arcade mode now if i'm honest with myself, even tough there's no price money waiting at the finish.

 

[axl54]

I tried the arcade mode with ' agression' set to ten, using lots of different car types to find a good race.
Only difference i can see is that the lead cars set slightly faster times.
It's still just a slalom through zombie-chicane ai, just now the zombies are faster.
How anyone can find these almost totally scripted 'races' is beyond me.

 

[axl54]

I tried the arcade mode with ' agression' set to ten, using lots of different car types to find a good race.
Only difference i can see is that the lead cars set slightly faster times.
It's still just a slalom through zombie-chicane ai, just now the zombies are faster.
How anyone can find these almost totally scripted 'races' fun is beyond me.

 

[1241Penguin]

The AI, no matter the agression, will not change their driving line. They will always intrude on your line no matter what. I just had a race at Spa today, and every single time I try to get one of them from the inside, they immediately turn in on me. And it's not like I'm trying to wedge myself in, there is plenty of room for me to go in.

Moreover, every single time they go off the track, they will try to go back onto the race track immediately even if it means ramming another guy (me) onto the next run off area.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Herp derp, when I don't brake for a corner, the AI slams their brakes on in front of me, and I always end up hitting them and watch them spin like noobs. Stupid programming

More seriously, I would bet money that over 80% of the complaints come from people that use faster cars, tires with too much grip, or both.

Now I'm not going to argue that the AI is not as fast as it could be, because it isn't, but in many real life situations, racers back off in many of the same situations that the AI does. Why is this? Because in real life, people don't want to wreck their race or their cars, and thus move out of the way of a dangerous situation, such as someone divebombing on the inside, or someone trying to pass that could cause themselves to be pushed off track if they don't allow the overtaker to force themselves through. Since this is supposed to be a simulator, I reckon this is what Kaz was aiming for, and not arcade style AI that rams it's way through. By the way, blocking a driver into, during, or exiting a corner is normal in real life racing. If you're tearing up the inside 40mph quicker than the AI on your Racing Soft tires and find that they are in your way, that is YOUR fault, not theirs.

If you set a sensible car up against the AI with sensible tires, they can actually become a lot more aggressive and you'll notice that their behaviour changes dramatically. They WILL attempt to pass you, divebomb, and follow your slipstream as you swerve on the straights. I was pleasantly surprised to see such huge differences when my car is a little underpowered.

 

[Moontallico]

If you set a sensible car up against the AI with sensible tires, they can actually become a lot more aggressive and you'll notice that their behaviour changes dramatically. They WILL attempt to pass you, divebomb, and follow your slipstream as you swerve on the straights. I was pleasantly surprised to see such huge differences when my car is a little underpowered.

That still wont make GT5 a good racing game though.
Because for us to have a good race we need to dumb down our car's performance after the car and track selection, on the pre-race menu, otherwise our car is still going to be too good for the AI on the pole position and will win easily. Then if we make our car slower, due to the non existance of a qualifying session, and the "catch the rabbit" game PD made, we wont be able to catch the cars in front and will hardly get a shot at the pole position.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

That still wont make GT5 a good racing game though.
Because for us to have a good race we need to dumb down our car's performance after the car and track selection, on the pre-race menu, otherwise our car is still going to be too good for the AI on the pole position and will win easily. Then if we make our car slower, due to the non existance of a qualifying session, and the "catch the rabbit" game PD made, we wont be able to catch the cars in front and will hardly get a shot at the pole position.

Why go from one extreme to the other, and not somewhere in the middle? Also, just because it's a game, why should you expect to finish first everytime? Real racing drivers don't expect to finish first in inferior cars. Never heard of HRT thinking that they'd claw their way past Redbull and McClaren from last to first.

 

[axl54]

Why go from one extreme to the other, and not somewhere in the middle? Also, just because it's a game, why should you expect to finish first everytime? Real racing drivers don't expect to finish first in inferior cars. Never heard of HRT thinking that they'd claw their way past Redbull and McClaren from last to first.

You must be playing a different game to me, no matter howmuch I nerf my car, the ai
are still just glorified chicanes. You must be a really slow driver who has a great imagination,
because the ai in this game is basically on rails 99 percent of the time, it's surrendering the rest of the time

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

You must be playing a different game to me. You must be a really slow driver

I guess you're right!


What's your idea of "No matter how much you nerf the car"? Obviously, if you fully detune a 2CV, you're going to get lapped. So give me a ballpark of what cars you're going up against, what PP your vehicle is, what vehicle you're using, and what tires you are using.

 

[Bottoz]

...Now I'm not going to argue that the AI is not as fast as it could be, because it isn't, but in many real life situations, racers back off in many of the same situations that the AI does. Why is this? Because in real life, people don't want to wreck their race or their cars, and thus move out of the way of a dangerous situation, such as someone divebombing on the inside, or someone trying to pass that could cause themselves to be pushed off track if they don't allow the overtaker to force themselves through...

True Story.

The AI isn't perfect... but it is ok.

If only they fix the gap between 1st and 3rd.

 

[Yauma9]

Just to add more meat to this thread: I don't think they're zombies, more like monotonous robots, why? Because if they got severly damaged a side, they can still get into their normal line, like if nothing has crashed into them.

Also , once I made an experiment: I got a stock LFA, got into Top Gear Test Track, when I saw my rivlas were Mclarens and Buggatis, I totally detuned my car (except for tires, which were left stock) and did a 20 lap race without damage, Tire wear etc. and guess what? I won!

Seriously PD needs to make a new AI from scratch, maybe more human.

 

[axl54]

I guess you're right!


What's your idea of "No matter how much you nerf the car"? Obviously, if you fully detune a 2CV, you're going to get lapped. So give me a ballpark of what cars you're going up against, what PP your vehicle is, what vehicle you're using, and what tires you are using.

Yeah, wasn't too clear, I meant nerf within reason i.e less power and/or tyres with less grip, so the chicanes(ai) are faster on the straights and I can try make it up in the corners. I've tried using all kinds of roadcars and racecars, and I've never seen any intersting or dynamic behavour from the ai, they follow the same lines and use the exact same break points every lap, every race.There's no illusion of intelligence or dynamic behaviour, it's like racing against a field of scalectrix cars. Not fun imo.
To be clear my main issue is with how poorly, and lazily coded the ai behaviour is in the game, their lack of speed can be bypassed by practising the experimental art of nerfing, though it shouldn't be necessary imo.

 

[marcus_war]

never mind, I type too slowly

 

[Moontallico]

Why go from one extreme to the other, and not somewhere in the middle? Also, just because it's a game, why should you expect to finish first everytime? Real racing drivers don't expect to finish first in inferior cars. Never heard of HRT thinking that they'd claw their way past Redbull and McClaren from last to first.

Well, I expect to finish first or get on the podium simply because that's how the game is designed for us to do.
Be it GT life A-Spec or B-Spec we can only get the completion trophy if we do so, that's one. On the seasonals we get rewarded if we do so. That's two plausible reasons.

Now, I dont care about it in the Arcade mode because with the right PPs on our car, there can be some nice fights for a certain position, in the middle only though. Also, there's nothing making us want to do better like the rewards and such, so a good battle is good enough.

And sure, you might have never heard HRT thinking that, but IRL there's championships with points, qualifying sessions, a somewhat even competition, so they do eventually get a shot at the podium, that's what every single team wants, what every driver wants. Not to mention that those podium wins are what give teams the money to build their cars, so yea, everyone races to win, don't you?

In GT5? No qualifying at all, no points except on some of the GT life competitions, and the worst of all, competition ranging from very slow to crazy fast. Ex: If I enter my Mazda RX-8 into a competition guess what I get... Some Beemers, Mercs, Audis, Dodges, Chevys and then, in the front, Mclarens, Cizetas, Citröens GT and Bugattis, lots of Bugattis. So in this case even without detuning I'd have a way overpowered competition in front, causing what most of the time happens, we get past the competition in the midle, and the rabbits in front get way too much ahead and we get to race alone. So in this case not even a competition with points could make me reach a good position, maybe if the AI crashed their cars and even so I think they'd have plenty of time to enter the pits, get fixed, get out again and catch me..

And why do we always need to make our car inferior anyway?
Why can't it be like in real life and simply have a good AI that can be competitive like a race between cars of the same class as the one we pick, so that not only some AI is good enough to compete but all of them are.

I'm talking about the ones that are literally left behind, they simply become moving chicanes.
I mean, for a 24 hour race with multiple classes (something GT5 doesn't have either btw), sure it's ok, but if we're doing a race against 15 more drivers, 11 on most cases, it should be a race against cars of the same class, or we just don't have good competitive races or enough battles for positions, be it player or AI vs AI.
That's because with 12 drivers, some overpowered in comparision to others as if they're from diferent classes, the number just don't allow it. There's too few racers with the same ammount of PPs in a race for that to happen.

It's like racing in a WTCC championship with a mix of WTCs, Super GTs, and street cars competing at the same time. The touring cars (in GT5 the rabbits) will eat the street cars for luch and ask for more. It just doesn't work the way PD makes it. :\

Sorry if I don't make much sense sometimes, as english isn't my mother language.
Cheers

 

[XEPEGTP]

The game should have opponent options, by Year, by Drivetrain, by PP, by Power, by Country and by "Series" (dtm supergt f1 wrc etc). With multiple choices including "random".

Mazda 110S (L10B), i want to race euro and jdm, FR from 1960-1975 with less than 175hp on CM tires, badabing, instant matches, even choices for THEIR tires, mods etc, and have a PREVIEW of which opponents were selected (all of this pre-race of course) that should solve opponent issues.

If i could select opponents in Arcade mode as opposed to cycling with different Tires, id spend ALOT less time online.

But GT's compromise is, since our AI is well, more A than I, lets just give them much faster cars, so its a chase rather than a race.

But it does not have to be this way. AI bots could take advantage of the BSPEC ideology, where each "driver" gets his own chemistry, hot\cold experienced\rookie etc to make a more REAL playing field, some people are alien and some suck, races are most of the time in packs, a field of 24 cars has 3-4 packs rather than everyone bumper to bumper all race.

 

[Cote Dazur]

When discussing the AI we need to specify if we are talking about A-Spec or Arcade.
In A-Sepc the AI is not interesting to race.
In Arcade if you choose your car in accordance to your talent, race the AI cleanly, do not use any assist including ABS at 0 and do not have to win every race, meaning you can enjoy a thight race in the middle of the pack, the AI is adequate and provide good fun, racing with passes, being passed.
Much better than most online (glorified hot lapping or demolition derby) racing.
Could AI in Arcade be better, no doubt, but not that bad.

 

[Samus]

When discussing the AI we need to specify if we are talking about A-Spec or Arcade.
In A-Sepc the AI is not interesting to race.
In Arcade if you choose your car in accordance to your talent, race the AI cleanly, do not use any assist including ABS at 0 and do not have to win every race, meaning you can enjoy a thight race in the middle of the pack, the AI is adequate and provide good fun, racing with passes, being passed.
Much better than most online (glorified hot lapping or demolition derby) racing.
Could AI in Arcade be better, no doubt, but not that bad.

Yes but where do you start in Arcade Mode? In last several seconds behind the leader in a rolling start. It might be closer racing but it's still an artificial handicap catch up to the leader.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I get the feeling that if the AI was as most people are wishing for (as in much faster than they currently are), then we'd start seeing dozens of threads popping up complaining that the game is too hard, they can't win, the AI shouldn't be overtaking them on this corner, humans can't drive that perfectly etc.

You just simply cannot please some people, they will always find something to complain about. The AI will always be too slow or too fast for someone, as everyone has a different skill set and expectations.

That's why I've been suggesting that it is up to YOU the player to alter your car around the AI in order to make the racing interesting and challenging.

 

[Samus]

I get the feeling that if the AI was as most people are wishing for (as in much faster than they currently are), then we'd start seeing dozens of threads popping up complaining that the game is too hard, they can't win, the AI shouldn't be overtaking them on this corner, humans can't drive that perfectly etc.

You just simply cannot please some people, they will always find something to complain about. The AI will always be too slow or too fast for someone, as everyone has a different skill set and expectations.

That's why I've been suggesting that it is up to YOU the player to alter your car around the AI in order to make the racing interesting and challenging.

But the faster you make the AI you can always add slower difficulties below it, so there is a challenge for every skill level. I'm not great at shooting games and can't play them on the hardest 'insane' difficulties but I don't moan about it, I just play at a normal difficulty.

 

[Moontallico]

But the faster you make the AI you can always add slower difficulties below it, so there is a challenge for every skill level. I'm not great at shooting games and can't play them on the hardest 'insane' difficulties but I don't moan about it, I just play at a normal difficulty.

My thoughts exactly.
That way, the experienced ones wouldn't get bored, the less experienced ones could have fun and none would complain.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

But the faster you make the AI you can always add slower difficulties below it, so there is a challenge for every skill level.

But there are different levels of difficutly. You can choose the AI's aggresion in arcade mode, choose between begginer, advanced and professional, and in the A-spec mode, the difficulty difference between the beginner series (Sunday cup etc) and the extreme class is incredibly vast (FGT championship anyone?).

It's not the difference in cars, but the difference in AI between the tiers. While personally I had no trouble with the FGT championship, I know that a lot of people struggled and still haven't been able to win it, and you're in exactly the same car as the AI, and can even give yourself an advantage by changing oil, running your car in and increasing the downforce.

 

[Moontallico]

But there are different levels of difficutly. You can choose the AI's aggresion in arcade mode, choose between begginer, advanced and professional, and in the A-spec mode, the difficulty difference between the beginner series (Sunday cup etc) and the extreme class is incredibly vast (FGT championship anyone?).

It's not the difference in cars, but the difference in AI between the tiers. While personally I had no trouble with the FGT championship, I know that a lot of people struggled and still haven't been able to win it, and you're in exactly the same car as the AI, and can even give yourself an advantage by changing oil, running your car in and increasing the downforce.

There are, but the AI is just not good enough yet for the more experienced players. I suppose you're talking about the agressiveness in the arcade mode. If you are, that's just not enough, and I've explained what it's lacking on one of my previous posts.
Compare GT5's AI to any PC sims AI and you'll see what I mean.

If you're talking about the lvl of the AI changing as the player progresses through GT life's races, I don't agree with that, and I'd say it really is the cars. Why?

Using the example you used, a lot of people struggle with the FGT championship, IMO, because the FGT is very twitchy and has quite a lot of oversteer making it hard to drive, so the most unexperienced people can't go that fast with it without slightly losing control of it, thus driving it slower than the AI.
Meaning the faster the cars, the harder they are to control, so the player has to be more careful when driving it. The AI is still the same, we're just slower not to lose control. Of course the more skill a player has, the more they can control the car and the faster they are, so some players did that FGT championship easly for sure. What you said is all down to the car and the player.

Also, the AI seem to have some sort of stability aid on. You can test that by ramming the AI, you'll see that it hardly loses control in compairison to you. They're wierdly stable all the time, besides in the Arcade mode with maximum aggressiveness where they sometimes spin by themselves.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

but the AI is just not good enough yet for the more experienced players. Compare GT5's AI to any PC sims AI and you'll see what I mean.

A lot of people struggle with the FGT championship....

Which brings me back around to this point:

You just simply cannot please some people, they will always find something to complain about. The AI will always be too slow or too fast for someone, as everyone has a different skill set and expectations.

 

[Moontallico]

Which brings me back around to this point:

And that's why PD should aim to make the AI better for the most experienced and leave the AI as we have now for the less experienced. To increase the range of pleased players.

BTW, I edited my previous post to be more understandable. Reread it if you want to.

Edit: I mean, I think none is going to complain that the AI is too hard as it is at this point. So yea, only strive to make the AI better, and then let the player choose how hard they want the AI to be. Something like GTR2 or rFactor have that we can choose between 50% to 100% dificulty.

Edit 2: I'm going to sleep. Any other replies only after I wake up.
Cheers

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

To me, the edited post now sounds like there should be moving goal posts depending on far too many circumstances, and the AI should be adjusted depending on what car the AI is driving. To program individual AI for 1100 cars is kind of asking for the impossible really, or an extra few years delay on the release date. To even set up a formula depending on power, weight, torque, drivetrain and suspension values is still too much to code for.

To maybe ask for the AI to be on an adjustment slider depending on your performance during a race - for example the AI eases off if you're struggling, and tries harder if you're ahead - is a nasty piece of rubberbanding, which in other games I've played is a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible experience. It left me feeling unchallenged because I could hold back until the very end and make an unexpected charge, or if I tried to stay ahead, the AI essentially cheats to regain position, and rather than creating a challenge, it just makes the experience down right frustrating. It's all very hard to program for and no company will ever be able to satisfy everyone. The process is way too complex, and I also doubt current hardware will be able to cope with the necessary calculations, though I'm no expert on the matter.

I still believe it's better to have a set AI and adjust yourself or your vehicle around those set parameters. Once you get it right, you're always going to get a similar experience, it's pretty much guaranteed that way.

 

[axl54]

My thoughts exactly.
That way, the experienced ones wouldn't get bored, the less experienced ones could have fun and none would complain.

Difficulty settings that provide a challenge for all skill-levels would solve the lack of challenge issue. To put the onus on the player to handicap themselves to get a decent race is a really, really stupid idea, all it does is take the pressure off PD to provide better AI, now or ever.

 

[Moontallico]

To me, the edited post now sounds like there should be moving goal posts depending on far too many circumstances,

Well, but that's how it should be, no? Always aim for better?
But anyway, if at least PD made the AI more realistic and less robotized (meaning following less the racing line when in a race or overtake situation, stop braking at wierd braking points because the line tells them to, or actually start fighting for the position and not giving up when the player is close to it and about to overtake) it would be a start.

and the AI should be adjusted depending on what car the AI is driving. To program individual AI for 1100 cars is kind of asking for the impossible really, or an extra few years delay on the release date. To even set up a formula depending on power, weight, torque, drivetrain and suspension values is still too much to code for.

Now, obviously I can't say much about this since I don't work for PD, but I believe the AI is already programmed to react acordingly to all the possible racing situations, may it be to over or understeer, crashes and such. So they can adapt to each car and the way they behave based on those basic things without doing an individual programming.

Other than that, the AI still needs better race wise programming, like what I mentioned above. (The racing line issue, the wierd braking points, and so on...)

To maybe ask for the AI to be on an adjustment slider depending on your performance during a race - for example the AI eases off if you're struggling, and tries harder if you're ahead - is a nasty piece of rubberbanding, which in other games I've played is a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible experience. It left me feeling unchallenged because I could hold back until the very end and make an unexpected charge, or if I tried to stay ahead, the AI essentially cheats to regain position, and rather than creating a challenge, it just makes the experience down right frustrating. It's all very hard to program for and no company will ever be able to satisfy everyone. The process is way too complex, and I also doubt current hardware will be able to cope with the necessary calculations, though I'm no expert on the matter.

I still believe it's better to have a set AI and adjust yourself or your vehicle around those set parameters. Once you get it right, you're always going to get a similar experience, it's pretty much guaranteed that way.

Those two PC sims I mentioned do it for me. I actually do enjoy racing on those as the AI is much more challenging. I say I'd love to have those types of AIs on GT5.
GT5 as it is, for me is either to tune cars on the practice mode or to race online.

 

[Scuderia Paul]

The AI in GT5 is in my opinion the most disappointing feature of the entire game. There is no sense of actual racing. Coming up behind an opponent who then basically pulls aside so as to make your overtake as easy as possible completely kills any perception of racing.
It feels like being at a track-day where others let you sail past as you are not competing and you both just happen to be sharing a particular section of a circuit.

I hate saying this but GT could learn something from NFS Shift when it comes to AI. While AI in Shift may be a little over aggressive at times, with excessive barging, there is a feeling that you are wrestling for a position.

For the next GT, be it GT6 or GT Vita, I want to see a complete re-write of the AI as races are mere processions as it is.

GT still the best though!