AI "Sand Bagging"

[Old Geezer]

I've suspected for some time that the "AI" is prone to "Sand Bagging" at some venues. (For those of you unfamiliar with the term...it means running MUCH SLOWER than you're capable of until an opportune moment arises!)

While running the final round of EXTREME HALL Gran Turismo All Stars with the BMW MacLaren F1 GTR Race Car '97 at the 'Ring I caught the SAUBER "Red Handed!" In qualification I run a leisurely 6'14.xxx with a 9.xxx second advantage which means "He" ran a 6'23. On the first Lap I pick up the pace a bit & turn a 6'10 BUT instead of being 13 seconds back...he's only 4 seconds behind & "Closing"

It turned into quite the battle about 1/3 of the way thru Lap #2 until he rear-ended me as I was approaching a corner! Almost another 1/3 lap goes by before I'm able to get past him & build a modest lead. Down the long straight he's filling my rear view mirror & although I already had the "Series" won I also wanted this "Podium" VERY badly! About 3 seconds between us at the final T-Time & I concentrate on getting cleanly over the finish but the screeen goes over to the "Points Chart" before he finishes the lap!

Curiosity got the best of me so I sat thru the entire replay just to see what happened. It seems when he first hit me his tyres were already starting to "Go Away." His handling got progressively worse until he finally "Lost It" near the Pit Entrance. My final "M.O.V." ended up being 17+ Seconds as he crossed the line at the 3'39 mark. Now I don't know about you guys but I'd much rather have seen him run two similar laps rather than one Blazingly Fast and the other Slipping & Sliding all over the place!!! It's difficult enough to find a decent race without the comp running WILDLY different Lap Times! Kinda makes you wonder who programs these things & "IF" they've ever "REALLY" played the "Game!" ...O.G.

 

[kennythebomb]

Welcome to every day of my 65 year old dad yelling at the AI for suddenly going faster and passing him

 

[Grand Prix]

Was the driver of the Sauber Ralf Schumacher by any chance?

 

[Bounty Hunter]

"sand bagging" originally was a sailing term, yeah?

digression aside - perhaps a big of draughting going on?

 

[Joey D]

Wow someone else actually uses the term sand bagging. I thought it was an old term used by teenagers back in the 50s and 60s when they would drag race. My dad would always say it.

But this is just another form of crappy AI.

 

[Old Geezer]

Wow someone else actually uses the term sand bagging. I thought it was an old term used by teenagers back in the 50s and 60s when they would drag race. My dad would always say it.

That's most likely 'cause your Dad & I are probably near the same age! 👍

perhaps a big of draughting going on?

"draughting" ??? ...O.G.

 

[Joey D]

*looks in your profile....wow you are only a year apart. . I'm glad to see the "older" generation playing these games...it keeps you guys young.

 

[kennythebomb]

That's most likely 'cause your Dad & I are probably near the same age! 👍


"draughting" ??? ...O.G.

He probably meant drafting

 

[Kylehnat]

It's more of the AI "rubberbanding", meaning that the faster you go, the faster they go, though this doesn't seem to happen in qualifying. It is indeed annoying, but what can you do?

 

[Old Geezer]

It's more of the AI "rubberbanding", meaning that the faster you go, the faster they go, though this doesn't seem to happen in qualifying. It is indeed annoying, but what can you do?

Nothing we can DO, that's for sure! I just don't understand why the "AI" is SO GOOD at some venues & SO BAD at others! And why, oh why is LAGUNA SECA "always" among the worst! Wouldn't it be more realistic for the "AI" to run slightly slower times rather than running off the track in the same corner Lap after Lap! I really do believe there's at least two "Teams" who program the "AI" for PD...one that actually "Plays the Game" and another that just doesn't care! ...O.G.

 

[Giancarlo]

I also enjoy how in the Supercars Race in the Pro Events, my Cr.100,000+ Spyker can barely overtake a "stock" AI Spyker.

 

[jdw]

Let's see if I get this... and a couple of my own observations...

- The real "sand bagging" has to do with the Qual rather than the race. Well, part of this has to do with tire wear (AIUI, if you stick around for a few laps your chances of capturing the pole diminish). In either case, the chances of capturing the pole are relatively high which is encouraging.

- In the race, part of this again is due to tire wear. The AI is always conservative on cold tires.

- The 92CP, being the tire eater it is, can't quite make it around the ring twice on R3s (which is what is used in All Stars) before its tires give out. Compare that to some of the other cars. It had an unforunate slip near the end. Perhaps using your draft also made the 92CP prone to losing its "line" so that it couldn't manage the final bit. I'd bet that this behavior isn't very repeatable. In all cases it'll start to lose its tires but sometimes it will manage to make to the finish without incident and sometimes it won't.

- I've operated under the assumption that the AI is based on the simple concepts offered in "B-Spec" mode. It just stands to reason that the game has one AI "system" and B-Spec is just a simplified user interface to that system. I've also wondered if the license requirement gives an indication of the likely B-spec "level" of your competitors. Point is, the game does have access to change levels during a race.

- Seems to me that the more competitive the race is the more likely the AI will get set to "4" or "5" and "overtake". I think this is true even when you're far away and the AI cars are jockeying for position amongst themselves. I also think the AI is likely to turn up the heat when it's behind and nearing the end of a race.

- This isn't quite the same thing as "rubberband AI". A term that's prone to abuse nowadays. "Rubberband AI" means that the AI slows down when you're behind and speeds up when you're ahead. But what it also implies is that the AI will speed up beyond the ability of the car it's in! That doesn't happen in GT4. Not even close.

- I doubt that the AI is set seperately for every car. I'm sure there are seperate parameters for the AI based on the car but it's likely that there a few "test" cars that were used upon which all the other cars are based. But, since there's a lot of variety in the cars there are just some where the application of the "test" car doesn't work. Which is why the AI can't drive the Vertigo worth a damn. That and... because that cars sucks!


I think the "sandbagging" comes from the fact that the AI is purposely slowed down from the vehicle's ability.

Why?

To make the game accessible to a larger audience.

Think of how many people can't win GTWC with a Minolta or Audi...

 

[300zxfairman]

I've suspected for some time that the "AI" is prone to "Sand Bagging" at some venues. (For those of you unfamiliar with the term...it means running MUCH SLOWER than you're capable of until an opportune moment arises!)

While running the final round of EXTREME HALL Gran Turismo All Stars with the BMW MacLaren F1 GTR Race Car '97 at the 'Ring I caught the SAUBER "Red Handed!" In qualification I run a leisurely 6'14.xxx with a 9.xxx second advantage which means "He" ran a 6'23. On the first Lap I pick up the pace a bit & turn a 6'10 BUT instead of being 13 seconds back...he's only 4 seconds behind & "Closing"

It turned into quite the battle about 1/3 of the way thru Lap #2 until he rear-ended me as I was approaching a corner! Almost another 1/3 lap goes by before I'm able to get past him & build a modest lead. Down the long straight he's filling my rear view mirror & although I already had the "Series" won I also wanted this "Podium" VERY badly! About 3 seconds between us at the final T-Time & I concentrate on getting cleanly over the finish but the screeen goes over to the "Points Chart" before he finishes the lap!

Curiosity got the best of me so I sat thru the entire replay just to see what happened. It seems when he first hit me his tyres were already starting to "Go Away." His handling got progressively worse until he finally "Lost It" near the Pit Entrance. My final "M.O.V." ended up being 17+ Seconds as he crossed the line at the 3'39 mark. Now I don't know about you guys but I'd much rather have seen him run two similar laps rather than one Blazingly Fast and the other Slipping & Sliding all over the place!!! It's difficult enough to find a decent race without the comp running WILDLY different Lap Times! Kinda makes you wonder who programs these things & "IF" they've ever "REALLY" played the "Game!" ...O.G.

That cheatin basterd!!

 

[meister_dan]

I think the "sandbagging" comes from the fact that the AI is purposely slowed down from the vehicle's ability.

Why?

To make the game accessible to a larger audience.

Think of how many people can't win GTWC with a Minolta or Audi...

I believe this is true.. People would then say that the game "is too hard" to even be played..

 

[Tornado]

I think it also has to do with B-Spec vs. A-Spec. For example, the 'Ring 4 hours in an NSX Type R '92 vs. an NSX-R '03 in A-Spec is fairly difficult. However, if the race is B-Specced, the AI NSX-R goes quite a bit slower, it's lap times dropping about 3 seconds on average I noticed from replays. This is despite the fact that B-Spec Roberto punches out similar lap times to mine on 4 setting (I'm rather poor at the 'Ring), therefore making the race easier as a whole.

 

[Bounty Hunter]

That's most likely 'cause your Dad & I are probably near the same age! 👍


"draughting" ??? ...O.G.

oopps

maybe i was thinking a combination of 'drafting' and the AI programmers drinking too much beer?

 

[Old Geezer]

oopps

maybe i was thinking a combination of 'drafting' and the AI programmers drinking too much beer?

Well to steal a line from Paul Hogan... "We all speak the same language (Brits, Kiwis, Aussies & Yanks)...but you lot have Mucked it up a bit!" Referring of course to the three groups you do NOT belong to!

@ jdw: VERY astute observations! 👍 I did two tests earlier using Turbo 4 & NO Turbo in my "Pet" Sauber. Will need at least a couple of more before I can reach a conclusion....O.G.

 

[niky]

Was the driver of the Sauber Ralf Schumacher by any chance?

...still can't get over it...

Well to steal a line from Paul Hogan... "We all speak the same language (Brits, Kiwis, Aussies & Yanks)...but you lot have Mucked it up a bit!" Referring of course to the three groups you do NOT belong to!

How bloody true!

I've noticed that some cars tend to go faster than humanly possible at times during the race, but since they also tend to crash a lot at these speeds, well....

And here's to hoping that the next GT will have "learning" drivers. Like if they start crashing at that bloody turn in Laguna Seca, they will automatically switch to "1" or "2" for that section... damn stupid AI...

 

[UrsaMajorPrime]

<snip> And why, oh why is LAGUNA SECA "always" among the worst! Wouldn't it be more realistic for the "AI" to run slightly slower times rather than running off the track in the same corner Lap after Lap! <snip>

Ya know, I thought that really sucked too - easy enough to beat in A-spec when they do that, but in B-spec, geez, I ran at level 2 the whole time, took it nice and slow and still smoked 'em cause they'd lose it at Rainey curve almost every lap.

WTF PD?

UMP

 

[TigJackson]

Wow someone else actually uses the term sand bagging. I thought it was an old term used by teenagers back in the 50s and 60s when they would drag race. My dad would always say it.

You obviously don't play Golf, because if you did, you would hear the term "Sand Bagger" used to describe anyone that wins a particular flight, other than perhaps, the Championship Flight!

But this is just another form of crappy AI.

I disagree completely with this ridiculous statement, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[Duke]

- This isn't quite the same thing as "rubberband AI". A term that's prone to abuse nowadays. "Rubberband AI" means that the AI slows down when you're behind and speeds up when you're ahead. But what it also implies is that the AI will speed up beyond the ability of the car it's in! That doesn't happen in GT4. Not even close.

Well, I'm less than 10% into GT4, so I haven't made a huge analysis of the AI behaviour. But in GT3, the AI 'catchup' routine definitely involved exceeding the physical capabilities of the car, at times.

 

[barryl85]

Well, I'm less than 10% into GT4

What? i had no idea - i dont know why im shocked at this but i am, maybe because you are an administrator of a Gran Turismo based website - oh well!

@ Old Geezer - i certainly did notice that - especially in the Formula one Championship i would qualify more than 10 seconds in front of number 2 then in the actual race he would be within 5 seconds of my lap times, not to mention the fact my lap time had increased from my qualifier aswell! so "sand bagging" it is

 

[Duke]

What? i had no idea - i dont know why im shocked at this but i am, maybe because you are an administrator of a Gran Turismo based website - oh well!

I've owned it since the North American release. However, I only get to play about 2 hours a week. Plus, I've been doing a lot of OLR so that doesn't add to completion percentage.

It took me about 16 months to play GT3 to 100%.

 

[coolacrille]

About the AI in this game. IT SUCKS most of the time. The B-Spec driver loses by laps in the same race in the exact same car that I win by laps in. ??? It's like their stuck on the ideal race line. Won't take ANY chances at all, yet he manages to fly into walss. It was most obvious on the Oval High Speed Test Course in All Stars... Soo stupid.

 

[Old Geezer]

About the AI in this game. IT SUCKS most of the time. The B-Spec driver loses by laps in the same race in the exact same car that I win by laps in. ??? It's like their stuck on the ideal race line. Won't take ANY chances at all, yet he manages to fly into walss. It was most obvious on the Oval High Speed Test Course in All Stars... Soo stupid.

Your GT4 Game did NOT come equipped with Michael Shumacher as the B-Spec driver! Check the numerous threads here concerning how to "Train" your guy. Eventually he'll do a great job for you...O.G.

 

[coolacrille]

Your GT4 Game did NOT come equipped with Michael Shumacher as the B-Spec driver! Check the numerous threads here concerning how to "Train" your guy. Eventually he'll do a great job for you...O.G.

Maybe I'll do that, but still.... I would expect some skill from him.. maybe there is something I do wrong....

 

[Old Geezer]

UPDATE to Post #17:​

As promised I ran a couple of tests vs the Sauber @ the 'Ring. Since I was already using my 1222 HP Minolta to check some DFPro problems another member is having I just stayed in it.

Test #1: I got around the four cars between the Sauber & myself as quickly as possible & then just sat on his bumper for two laps. SAUBER RESULTS: 12'19.xxx with no real handling issues!

Test #2: I went for the lead from the start & passed the Sauber about the 40 secomd mark. Stretched out a 32 second lead even with a couple of "Brain Farts" by the end of Lap #2 so I "Parked" just short of the finish line so the replay wouldn't cut off the end of the Sauber's run. SAUBER RESULTS: 12'20.037 with only a small handling issue right at the end!

I can only conclude that whether leading or trailing the Sauber will most likely run in the neighborhood of 12'20 at this venue. Another little "Factoid"...when running "Behind" the Sauber the Rear Tyres (R-2s) survived both Laps just fine. When "Pushing" it...they were "Toast" before the long Straight! ...O.G.