AI tire wear 19 lap race?

[slthree]

I progressed to the longer races in my career and I'm now doing the Formula Renault 19 lap, 7 race series

My slicks start degrading around laps 9,10. The only way to finish the race is to pit and get new tires. Problem is that the AI does not pit.

I've tried to complete the race at Monza 20-30 times,without pitting, of course, since the AI doesn't pit. I can hold the lead until a little bit more than halfway through the race and then I can't keep the car stable to save my life.

I guess I have two questions:

1. Does the AI have a different tire wear models fot slicks on this car?

2. Is there anything I can do, short of reducing the laps in the race, to preserve my tires without having to pit?

Thanks

 

[rj5992]

How detailed a setup do you have on the car? Have you adjusted pressure to stop the tyres overheating? Camber adjustments to stop the inside wearing too quick?

 

[David Wright]

Tyre wear is dependent on driving style, so it is difficult to perfectly match AI tyre wear with player tyre wear. I am not familiar with this car but wearing out your tyres at Monza in 10 laps seems excessive if you are using an appropriate compound. If I get chance I will run some laps myself and see if my tyres wear out too.

 

[slthree]

Great questions rj.

I'm actually using the default Stable tune. I'd love to hear your suggestions.

If it means anything, it's my front left tire that wears the most. They all stay green but that particular tire loses the most grip. It's the one the disappears by more than half by lap 11-13

I hope this might shed light on anything I'm likely doing wrong.

I don't know if this means anything, but I constantly get the message from the spotter on the crew chief app that I'm locking up going in to turns. It's a bunch of turns but I can't remember their names.

The other message I get a lot is that my brakes are getting hot.

Sorry to bore you with so much information but I don't know what things are significant and you might be able to detect something from what I've told you.

Thanks

How detailed a setup do you have on the car? Have you adjusted pressure to stop the tyres overheating? Camber adjustments to stop the inside wearing too quick?

 

[cpcdem]

It's the locking up that causes the problem, that's usually the main factor for excessive tire wear. Try progressively letting off the brakes while your speed lowers to avoid locking up. Also you may want to try to reduce brake pressure a bit and/or bring the brake bias a bit to the rear, so you avoid those heavy front tire lock ups.

 

[slthree]

Thank you David

The stable default tune uses "automatic by weather" so the tires were "slicks"

Tyre wear is dependent on driving style, so it is difficult to perfectly match AI tyre wear with player tyre wear. I am not familiar with this car but wearing out your tyres at Monza in 10 laps seems excessive if you are using an appropriate compound. If I get chance I will run some laps myself and see if my tyres wear out too.

 

[slthree]

I may have underestimated the lap where I start losing grip in a big way

I do notice it (based on the graphic of the tire) around lap 11 or 12. The car becomes seriously "slidey" around lap 16,17

Thats usually where I lose it altogether

 

[David Wright]

I just ran 20 laps at Monza. There is only one compound so you can't go wrong there. The tyres were softer than I expected and by the end the front left was down to about 45%, the front right 55% and the rears around 75%. Grip isn't a problem at these wear levels - thanks to reduced fuel and learning the car and track I was going faster at the end than at the start. I'm pretty sure I wasn't pushing as hard as you as I only locked up maybe three times, and didn't overheat the brakes.

So if you push harder the tyres are marginal. Lock-ups could easily push them over the edge. All you can do is try to manage the tyres, and avoid lock-ups (either by bake pressure reduction or more careful application).

 

[slthree]

Thank you for doing this and reporting your results, David.

if you only got a lock up message 3 times in 20 laps, it's clear I am driving very, very, very poorly. In the various attempts at this race, which I never finish, I get a lock up message no less than 20 times.

I know I'm not an elite sim racer, but this proves how far off I really am. Sigh

Did you run with the default Stable setup or did you make any changes?

 

[rj5992]

Great questions rj.

I'm actually using the default Stable tune. I'd love to hear your suggestions.

If it means anything, it's my front left tire that wears the most. They all stay green but that particular tire loses the most grip. It's the one the disappears by more than half by lap 11-13

I hope this might shed light on anything I'm likely doing wrong.

I don't know if this means anything, but I constantly get the message from the spotter on the crew chief app that I'm locking up going in to turns. It's a bunch of turns but I can't remember their names.

The other message I get a lot is that my brakes are getting hot.

Sorry to bore you with so much information but I don't know what things are significant and you might be able to detect something from what I've told you.

Thanks

One thing I might suggest is lowering your brake pressure, default is most likely 95%. What pedals are you using? Could be you need to calibrate them as well, I do mine every time I load up the game, otherwise I lose a lot of progression.

If your brakes are overheating, then open up the brake ducts a little bit. Not too much, otherwise you'll hamper speed which is important at a track like Monza.

The other thing is you might want to put a touch more front wing in the car, if you feel like you're understeering a bit and 'pushing' the front left too hard. If the back end feels really stable as it is then take off a bit of rear downforce instead. It'll have the same affect as increasing the front, but will also improve your straight line speed.

Any other questions then feel free to ask.

 

[David Wright]

Thank you for doing this and reporting your results, David.

if you only got a lock up message 3 times in 20 laps, it's clear I am driving very, very, very poorly. In the various attempts at this race, which I never finish, I get a lock up message no less than 20 times.

I know I'm not an elite soon racer, but this proves how far off I really am. Sigh

Did you run with the default Stable setup or did you make any changes?

Don't get disheartened - I was deliberately trying not to lock the brakes to see if the tyres could last for 20 laps. All it proves is I wasn't trying as hard as you! I think my best lap was 1:39-1:40. I'm also using a wheel and pedals - not sure what you are using. I used the stable setup with no changes. Wing settings are probably too high for Monza. I was just driving in practice mode alone so I've no idea if the AI use a low down-force setup or whether you can match their straight-line speed with the default.

 

[slthree]

Ok Guys.

I use CSL Elite wheel and pedals and my brake pedal is load cell

I haven't calibrated the pedals in quite a while

What actually causes lockups? Is it from breaking too late and hitting the pedals too hard?

Could it be from pressing the brake, letting it go, and pressing it again? I do that a lot

 

[rj5992]

Lockups happen when the calipers apply more friction to the disc than the tyres have grip on the road. So the tyres loose grip, the wheel stops rotating, and then slides along the surface.

It's only the force applied to the wheel through the brake pedal and the disc that will affect whether you lockup, not your braking method. You could brake 20 times into a corner if you so wished, and as long as your braking force doesn't exceed the level of grip on the road each time you press the pedal then you won't lockup.

 

[rj5992]

It's a balancing act between the brakes and the tyres. If your tyres are cold or have too much camber then the amount of grip they provide will be lowered, resulting in the amount of brake pressure needed to cause the tyre to lockup being reduced as well.

Reducing the brake pressure in the tuning setup will reduce the maximum amount of pressure the calipers can exert on the disc, reducing the likelihood of locking up. Too low, however, and you won't be getting the maximum potential from the braking system.

 

[slthree]

Based on this info, I have a couple of questions:

Adding camber is INCREASING the negative number, correct? (going from -2.5 to -3.0 would be increasing camber)

I normally add camber when I have difficulties on corners. Having read the description, I add camber to help me with stability. I hope I'm reading that correctly.

But, it sounds like the negative component of adding camber is that I stress my brakes, unduly?

 

[rj5992]

Based on this info, I have a couple of questions:

Adding camber is INCREASING the negative number, correct? (going from -2.5 to -3.0 would be increasing camber)

I normally add camber when I have difficulties on corners. Having read the description, I add camber to help me with stability. I hope I'm reading that correctly.

But, it sounds like the negative component of adding camber is that I stress my brakes, unduly?

The best way to describe it is to imagine you are looking at the rear left wheel from behind the rear of the car. Negative camber is where the top of the tyre leans in towards the chassis of the car. Positive camber is where the top of the tyre leans away from the car. A completely vertical wheel would have a 0 camber value.

So a greater negative value (-3.0) has the top of the tyre leaning towards the chassis of the car more than a camber of, say -2.5. You are correct by saying that adding camber is increasing the negative number.

To be honest, in my experience camber is going to be one of the things that would be hard to 'feel' whilst driving. If you're struggling in corners then it's far more likely to be downforce, suspension or differential adjustments that you'll be feeling, rather than camber.

The best way to set the camber up for your car is to do a minimum of 6 laps of the circuit, ideally 9/10. 5 is the point where your tyres are just starting to warm up. You don't have to push crazy hard, just put in consistent laps.

Towards the end of that, pull up the telemetry HUD and look at the coloured rectangles, they represent your tyres as if you're looking down on them from above. On top of the coloured rectangles you'll see three boxes above the inside, middle and outside of the tyre profile. The numbers in the boxes are the tyre temperature on that portion of the tyre. If the tyre temperature is hotter on the inside of the tyre, you'll need to lower the negative value to bring the tyre more upright. A colder portion of the tyre means that you aren't getting the full contact patch through the corners, reducing grip and overly stressing the parts of the tyre that are in contact. It is normal for the camber to need to be different at each corner, it'll change depending on the circuit as well.

Also sort out your tyre pressures at that point as well. On a formula Renault you need to aim for 1.75 bar on the front and 1.45 bar on the rear. Again, it's normal for the pressures to be different on each corner. One thing to note is that the tyre pressures on the tuning menu are cold pressures. You have to reheat the tyres with another 9 laps to see whether further changes need to be made.

It's not that adding camber stresses the brakes at all, it just reduces the contract patch and consequently reduces grip, lowering the maximum braking potential

 

[fernandito]

Hello Sithree. Taking for granted you are on a loose setup then:
Reduce camber and toe on both trains; reduce brake pressure by a good margin to reduce heat (the car will still brake soo good); stiff rear supension a little as well as soften the front a little too; same policy on the antiroll bars (adjust dumpers accordingly after this); increase just one click the engine braking, and finally alhough not necessarily you might want to increase preload a little bit too by just one click to the right. If tarmac too hot don't forget to lower those cold pressures too.

If you are on a stable setup, then that's why you are destroying front tyres so quick. Either avoid stable setups unless you are on a controller, or dramatically tune them to get closer to the looe one (or find an even place if you prefer) even if it is an openwheeler. You have to trust tyres, and precisely, FR slicks were fixed in the last patch

 

[Daz555]

If the fronts are locking up a lot then moving the brake bias a few clicks to the rear will help.

 

[fernandito]

Sorry I explained myself halfway clear about the toe/camber setup. Reduce camber and toe only when the tarmac is very hot (Dubai on summer; Willow Springs, etc those kind of countries with tarmac above 40ºC on summer). If the tarmac conditions are very cold, then you might then consider doing the opposite thing.

Toe has a way more clear impact on the handling of the cars than camber, but too much negative camber wil decide whether you burn the inner side of your tyres on very hot tarmac conditions, whereas toe won't (because you will never go full retard on this value); or on the other hand if you didn't add enough of it in order to keep your tyres warm when in very cold tarmac, that will make your car more slidy because you can't keep temps up to operative range. Closing air duct on cold tarmac is a very good idea too to keep these warm, as well as adding extra negative camber.

More negative camber will also have a negative impact on your car stability under heavy braking; however, trail braking will be a whole lot better when negotiating corners.

Just pay attention to the tarmac temperature. If it is very hot, lower camber on all wheels; soften suspensions and anti roll bars; reduce braking pressure; open air ducts, and also try going on a lower aero setting if you are down for it (always keep your ride height as low as possible on the rear anyway even if tarmac too hot, don't forget that) If very cold, right opposite way then, but with the chasis as low as possible on the rear too.