An answer to my previous question: No, they won't.

[Tornado]

[SIZE=-1]Wiedeking to take more control on VW

Porsche CEO Wendelin Wiedeking is reported to take further control on Volkswagen. Currently Porsche is VW's largest shareholder with 27.4% stake. It plans to increase that to 29.9% early next year to take more seats in Volkswagen's board room. Since Wiedeking and VW Chairman Ferdinand Piech joined forces to oust CEO Bernd Pischetsrieder last month, they plan to let Porsche take more control of the world's 4th largest car maker. Wiedeking will tackle VW's cost / efficiency problem using his know-how learned in Toyota in the early 1990s and successfully applied to Porsche later on. A consultancy team is going to assess the Hannover plant first, which will be used to produce the body of Porsche Panamera, and then the Wolfsburg main plant and the underperforming Spanish factories of Seat. Wiedeking wants to challenge the Toyota benchmark for efficiency.

Linky.

Hmm. I'm surprised they are pushing for this so soon after throwing Pischetsrieder out. What must be asked is: what does this mean for the R8? More importantly, what does this mean for VAG as a whole?
[/SIZE]

 

[eg6_dude]

Audi's, Porsche's, VW's, and Lamborghini's cars are all so closely related this days that lately I have been wondering when they are going to merge to make....some kinda.....super car manufactuer!

On a more serious note. I think the R8 and the plans for it by now should be past the stages where any changes will be made. The problem in this situation that these manufactuers have is that alot of there cars compete against each other, as well as against other manufactuers. (Gallardo, R8, 911 Turbo, V8 Vantage)

Also, as far as I know, VW is still questioning the future of it's most elite branch Bugatti.

My personal theory is that they need to sort out the ranks. VW needs to be the everday economy brand, Audi the high-end version of VW, Porsche makes the sports cars, Lamborghini makes the exotics/supercars, and Bugatti...well Bugatti... can maker ubercars! They have this right now to a certain extent, but all the brands are beginning to mesh together a little bit.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well I certainly take this news as a positive. If Porsche is going to be interested in increasing profit margins while also increasing efficiency and quality at VW (and it's subsidiaries), then more power should indeed go to Porsche. Since the mid '90s, quality of VW products has been questionable at best, and for the most part has been the reason why sales dropped so bad here in America.

If VW can improve quality further than where it has been going (rather good right now, IMO), and keep products coming at a steady pace, VW will be on track to turn a larger profit than ever before. Hopefully what Porsche will provide is a means by which VW can expand its options for building cars and trucks, and I believe Porsche is hoping to do the same with VW on their end of the table.

Certainly increased involvement from a "rival" company (in the eyes of Audi and Lamborghini) may not seem like a great idea, but I really wouldn't consider it all a problem. Porsche will remain a separate entity on the whole I believe, only there for certain "partnership" rights, but they aren't going to go about demanding that Lamborghini and Audi not make competitive products. Basically what it comes down to is money. Certainly someone who opts for a Gallardo or R8 is taking money out of Porsche's pockets, but theoretically, someone who opts for the 911 Turbo over the others is taking money out of their products as well.

Porsche wants what is best for their investment, and moving the companies around is a good idea. Increasing quality, performance, and hopefully the reputation of VW and its subsidiaries can only do good for their investment.

...Now if Porsche can work on getting more Diesel products in the US from VW, I would be a very happy man...

 

[Poverty]

Porsche arent gonna mess with audi's line up. Audi is VW's golden goose, thats according to future predictions will outsell BMW and MB in a decade to be leading premium manufacturer.

The R8 helps to raise Audi's profile, and the more money audi makes the more porsche does.

 

[Scaff]

Porsche arent gonna mess with audi's line up. Audi is VW's golden goose, thats according to future predictions will outsell BMW and MB in a decade to be leading premium manufacturer.

Would you mind providing a link to those future predictions, or are they from Audi themselves?

If they are Audi's then the claims are nothing new, but saying you are going to do something and then achieving it are very different things indeed.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Poverty]

Would you mind providing a link to those future predictions, or are they from Audi themselves?

If they are Audi's then the claims are nothing new, but saying you are going to do something and then achieving it are very different things indeed.

Regards

Scaff

I can provide figures from audi themselves and some stock broking company from america. I will post them later tonight when I come back from the gym.

Im gonna be looking into investing in audi, I will just wait for the next gen A4 and A5 and see if they can rival bmw dynamics, cause if they can they will be a guaranteed success, and a worthy long term investment going by the future predictions, and TBH I dont think BMW can grow much bigger, I think Audi and MB will though.

 

[Scaff]

I can provide figures from audi themselves and some stock broking company from america. I will post them later tonight when I come back from the gym.

Thanks, I would be interested to read them.

Im gonna be looking into investing in audi, I will just wait for the next gen A4 and A5 and see if they can rival bmw dynamics, cause if they can they will be a guaranteed success, and a worthy long term investment going by the future predictions, and TBH I dont think BMW can grow much bigger, I think Audi and MB will though.

I don't think that rivalling BMW dynamics is Audi's problem (and across the entire model range that's going to take a long time, FWD is still an issue here as is engine location from a 'drivers' point of view), rather image in some markets. As long as BMW and MB carry the badge cache that has to date eluded Audi they will struggle to match either company. Particularly in the USA, a market that Audi has suffered badly in the past from an image perspective.

That's not to say that Audi will not continue to grow, I'm quite certain that they will, but to challenge the dominance of BMW and MB in some segments is going to take a while.

I would also be careful of statements such as BMW not being able to grow much bigger, both BMW and MB have shown they are more than capable of pulling the odd surprise out of the bag from time to time (A class actually works, run-away success of the MINI and the 3-series outselling the Mondeo in the UK) and without significant damage to the respective brands. Hell even the MB reliability issues are having little real impact now.

It certainly will be an interesting decade or so for Audi, and as I said I'm sure they will grow, but you can also bet on BMW and MB not resting on there laurels.

Regards

Scaff

 

[harrytuttle]

Linky.

Hmm. I'm surprised they are pushing for this so soon after throwing Pischetsrieder out. What must be asked is: what does this mean for the R8? More importantly, what does this mean for VAG as a whole?

Chaos. Pure, unadulterated, chaos.


No, not really. But even Ford has realized that overlap is bad. In Ford's case, it stifled product growth, so they are planning to sell Aston Martin. The move that coincides with this? Jaguar gets a harder-core XK, and the rest of the range can finally "breathe", now that it is the top marque under Ford.

What's going to happen the R8? It'll sell like coke at a Hollywood after-hours party. For a year or two. It will make VAG oodles of noodles of money, and then probably cease production. Nothing has been said from VAG or Porsche about overlap or in-house competition, but since everyone else in the industry is talking about it, VAG is definitely thinking it. They'd be completely brain-dead not to be thinking about it, and given their product lineups, I doubt that's even possible.

I think the R8 will be a one-shot deal, a quattro halo product, a harbinger of a newer, sportier Audi, consisting of no "true" sports cars, but only sedans and coupes...and wagons...and hatchbacks...and an SUV or two. That will remain the domain of Porsche. It has to be. Othewise, what purpose does Porsche serve other than to provide a nice badge on the front?

 

[Poverty]

Audi are planning on expanding their "R" range^^^

scaff-

Porsche to buy Audi, Lamborghini, Bugatti and Bentley?

Porsche to buy Audi, Lamborghini, Bugatti and Bentley?
Porsche has moved to become the largest shareholder of the German giant Volkswagen group, and is now tipped to be attempting to spin-off the Audi brand from the consortium so that the sports carmaker may acquire the luxury brand’s shares by itself. Porsche is understandably being very tight-lipped about the issue, but many analysts have acknowledged the potential that could be gained from such a reorganization.

If the merger occurred, Porsche together with Audi would be able to sell more than a million cars annually, with a higher yield than either Mercedes or BMW. This would leave Volkswagen Group consisting only of VW, Skoda and Seat, which would still maintain an annual output of four million cars but with much lower margins. It would also enable Audi to make the final push to unseat BMW and Mercedes as the premier German carmaker.

Source: http://www.autospies.com/news/Porsche-to-buy-Audi-Lamborghini-Bugatti-and-Bentley-10321/

At its annual news conference in Stuttgart on Wednesday, Porsche acted like it already was calling the shots on Volkswagen.

More...




This story is far from the end ...

In German business circles, Porsche's creeping takeover has become a riveting drama. Wiedeking calls it a David and Goliath tale - somewhat implausibly, given Volkswagen's frailties.
Certainly, it brings together two starkly different brands - the utilitarian "people's car" and the ultimate rich man's toy - that nevertheless share a common history. Ferdinand Porsche, the patriarch of the sports- car dynasty, designed the Volkswagen Beetle for Hitler.

It also has political and legal ramifications, since Volkswagen is now protected from a full takeover by a German law that bars any investor from holding more than 20 percent of the shareholder vote
Wiedeking said, however, that he expected a European court to strike down the law. This would strengthen Porsche's hand relative to Volkswagen's other principal shareholder, the state of Lower Saxony, which owns approximately 20 percent and has resisted Porsche's growing influence. The European Court of Justice is scheduled to consider a challenge to the law next Tuesday, and while it is not likely to act then, legal experts expect a ruling within the next year. If the law is struck down, analysts predicted, Porsche will move quickly to buy Volkswagen. Under German law, a company that owns more than 30 percent of another company's shares must make an offer.

Last month, Porsche said it would ask its shareholders for authority to issue as many as 8.75 million new shares, which it could use to finance a major acquisition.
"Nobody knows what else they would do with all that money," said Ferdinand Dudenhöffer, the director of the Center for Automotive Research in Gelsenkirchen.

Wiedeking said a takeover was not in Porsche's current plans, but he did not rule it out in the future.
"Like in a game of chess, we do not know the moves the other players intend to make," he said. "And to be taken seriously by all the other players, we need to have an appropriate level of approved capital."


PS: Price of 1 Porsche share is cca €900. So 8.75 million new shares multiplied by €900 = 7.875 billion euros (10.2 billion dollars). Porsche AG is definitely up to something. And if EU court rules in favor of Porsche, PAG will definitely acquire WAG (otherwise VAG could be a target of a hostile takeover). We are definitely going to get PWAG (PorscheVolkswagen AG) in the future.

Audi aims to be world's leading premium brand by 2015

Audi AG is aiming to become the world's leading premium car brand by 2015, Audi chief executive Martin Winterkorn told German weekly Welt am Sonntag.

'We have a clear vision: By 2015, we want to be the leading premium (car) manufacturer in the world,' Winterkorn told the newspaper.

Growth is expected to be driven by the Chinese market, the paper said.

'In 2015, Audi will certainly sell between 160,000 and 240,000 cars in China,' it cited Winterkorn as saying.

This year, Audi will sell 80,000 units in China, according to the paper.

Winterkorn said India, too, is a dynamic growth market and added that he sees further growth potential in the Middle East and in South Africa.

Welt am Sonntag said Audi is currently the world's third-largest premium car manufacturer after Bayerische Motoren Werke AG and DaimlerChrysler AG's Mercedes-Benz.

Source: http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2006/10/01/afx3057771.html

LE CASTELET, France

The company, a subsidiary of Germany's Volkswagen, has been fabulously successful in Europe where it threatens the hegemony of Mercedes and BMW. In important emerging markets like China, Audis are lusted after like any other important luxury brand.

But in the U.S. its sales are pitifully small.

"Last year, Audi's volume in (the U.S. and Canada) barely exceeded the volume it sold in the British market, despite the U.S. market being seven times the size of the British market," said Adam Jonas, analyst with investment banker Morgan Stanley in a recent report.

Audi lost about $260 million in North America last year, Jonas said.

According to Walt Madeira, British-based Europe Sales Forecast Manager for CSM Worldwide, Audi's ambitious global sales forecasts of 1 million vehicles by 2008 won't be achieved until 2010, while the 1.4 million global sales target by 2015, will be missed by a year.

Morgan Stanley's Jonas has no doubts that Audi is in excellent shape, and will be able to raise its profits and sales to at least match management's predictions.

"Audi is in the initial stages of a strategic transformation as it enters a period of super-normal growth, higher margins and improved asset efficiency," said Jonas in the report.

Jonas reckons that Audi has been so successful, if it were valued separately from its owner VW, it would account for more than 100 per cent of VW's stock market value.


"Our fair valuation of Audi represents over 100 per cent of Volkswagen Group's current stock market value. We now assume that 6 per cent (profit) margins are sustainable at Audi versus 5 per cent previously. We also believe Audi's target of 1 million sales by 2008 is conservative," said Jonas.

The 1.4 million sales by 2015 will be met, according to Jonas. The new models will improve the profitability of the loss-making North American operation. Jonas wonders if Audi could eventually split from VW and become an independent car maker.

"Audi remains remarkably independent from VW group in terms of manufacturing, engineering and distribution. Apart from (China) the limited A3 assembly in Belgium and Q7 production in Bratislava (Slovakia), there are no other instances of VW and Audi making cars in the same factory. VW offers Audi cost advantages, but brings revenue and strategic disadvantages," said Jonas.

Jonas acknowledges the problems posed by an under-performing U.S. market, where the Audi dealer network suffers from below-average profitability. Audi is trying to recruit more exclusive dealers. The dollar's weakness has also dragged down profits in the U.S., while Lexus and Infiniti, both big players in the U.S. but bit players here, are planning to crank up sales in Europe to threaten the incumbents like BMW, Mercedes and Audi.


CSM Worldwide's Madeira agrees that China and the U.S. are the keys to Audi long-term success. In the U.S. Audi's link with down-market VW is also a sales inhibitor, and this has made it difficult for Audi to raise its brand perception.

"At the moment, BMW and Mercedes generate more enthusiasm in North America. Mercedes is the ultimate in luxury and BMW is the ultimate driving machine. Lexus is refinement. The Audi North American slogan is "Never Follow". But the fact is that new Audi product initiatives usually follow what the competition already offers," said Madeira.

"Audi must distance itself more from the VW brand in the U.S. and stop being perceived as a glorified VW and stand up to its own value creation.

 

[iceburns288]

I have also just announced my new automobile company, iceburns288racingmotorwerkenclocks S.p.A. We also aim to be the top automobile manufacturer by 2015.

No offense, but anyone can talk the talk...

 

[Poverty]

I have also just announced my new automobile company, iceburns288racingmotorwerkenclocks S.p.A. We also aim to be the top automobile manufacturer by 2015.

No offense, but anyone can talk the talk...

I guess you didnt read the part where a independant source said it was achievable?

Also the fact that rumours are flying about of porsche wanting to get hold of audi should show that they also believe audi could be number one.

 

[Scaff]

I guess you didnt read the part where a independant source said it was achievable?

Also the fact that rumours are flying about of porsche wanting to get hold of audi should show that they also believe audi could be number one.

Uhh not quite what they said

According to Walt Madeira, British-based Europe Sales Forecast Manager for CSM Worldwide, Audi's ambitious global sales forecasts of 1 million vehicles by 2008 won't be achieved until 2010, while the 1.4 million global sales target by 2015, will be missed by a year.

Morgan Stanley's Jonas has no doubts that Audi is in excellent shape, and will be able to raise its profits and sales to at least match management's predictions.

CSM Worldwide actually say they expect Audi to miss the forecast dates for sales volumes, while Morgan Stanley are saying they expect them to be achieved. So the independent side of things is not a consensus. Additionally neither of them say that Audi will be bigger than MB and/or BMW, the only parts in regard to Audi being larger than BMW and/or MB are from Audi. The one part that does specifically say this is actually in regard to Audi and Porsche as a joint company, not Audi on its own.

If the merger occurred, Porsche together with Audi would be able to sell more than a million cars annually, with a higher yield than either Mercedes or BMW

It's an interesting series of pieces, but given that currently German law would stop the merger, and that it would also have to mean that BMW and MB sat still during all this, its hardly a sure thing is it.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Midnight Runner]

all audi needs,to be considered serious in US,is to start making cars that are primarily RWD IMO.Maybe I'm wrong,but...

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, Audi is taken fairly seriously in American by some people, but not all. The problem is that they must overcome the perception of being a "lesser" German luxury brand by comparison to BMW and Mercedes. Over the past few years, the press has done their part in giving Audi the credit they deserve as a luxury brand, but they just aren't there yet... And it is questionable really if they will ever be there.

If Audi was to have an all-out luxury/performance Blitzkreig against BMW and Mercedes, maybe they could score a victory or two. The S6 certainly has gained some praise, and the RS4 is one of the biggest hits of 2006. That said, they will have to remain on their toes as the new M3 debuts, and Mercedes beefs up the AMG program. Where Audi wins is on value and the balance it strikes between the two brands, but settling for status quo positioning isn't going to make it a top company in any country.

...Just my two cents...

 

[harrytuttle]

Audi are planning on expanding their "R" range^^^

That just defies logic to me.... What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall on all -- or any -- of the Porsche/Piech/VAG meetings. I can't imagine what they're thinking up. An R4 below the Boxster but above the TT? And it's lightweight? Audi doesn't do lightweight!

My brain hurts. I'm going to go lie down.

 

[Poverty]

The R4 isnt below the boxster, instead its menat to be on par with the cayman.

Some next gen audi chassis info.

Audi’s new A5 coupe will be unveiled at the Geneva show in February, according to a senior company source. The A5 is the first car based on Audi’s new corporate platform, which promises to deliver definitively better ride and handling than the current line-up.

Our source also revealed that the new chassis can be tuned to deliver either understeer, neutral handling or oversteer. "Our research revealed that the majority of drivers prefer understeer at the limit, but the A5 chassis can also be tuned for more expert drivers," they said.

Audi’s current transmission layout – with the engine positioned longways ahead of the front axle – results in nose-heavy weight distribution. This can compromise the steering response and ride control.

The new platform is dubbed MLP, which stands for Modular Platform for longitudinally mounted engines. It is flexible enough to be used under the future A4, A6 and A8 and other spin-off models such as the A5.

And a lightweight audi

A few months ago, specifically in March, we posted an article concerning KTM intentions of building a sports roadster in collaboration with Audi. Well times up as KTM just came out with official sketches of the two-seater roadster that’s called "X-Bow". The Austrian motorcycle company -or shall we say motorcycle-car company now, announced that the X-Bow will make its premiere at the Geneva Show in March. Sales are expected to start in autumn 2007 with the X-Bow carrying a base price of about 40.000 euros.

As for the technical details, while where still waiting for more official information, we know that KTM’s version of the Lotus 340R will weigh just under 700 kg (a little over 1,500 pounds) and it will be powered by various versions of VW Group’s 4cylinder 2.0 TFSI engine. The base edition will be fitted with a 220 Hp version (in the Golf GTI the same engine delivers 200 Hp) while the top spec X-Bow will have an output of nearly 300 Hp, topping even the 265 Hp Audi S3 which wears the most powerfull version of the Groups 2.0 TFSI motor up to now. Power will transferred to the rear wheels by a six speed manual gearbox and optionally, through Audi’s superb DSG semi-auto transmission.

The 3,6 metre long X-Bow will use a carbon fiber Monocoque chassis built by racing car specialist, Dallara. Well get back on the X-Bow as soon as we have more official info.

 

[Tornado]

The R4 isnt below the boxster, instead its menat to be on par with the cayman.

Which makes even less sense.

 

[harrytuttle]

The R4 isnt below the boxster, instead its menat to be on par with the cayman.

Some next gen audi chassis info.

And a lightweight audi

Ah. That makes much more sense now. It's like the explanation of Easter:

"Hmm...our savior has been ressurrected...we should have some eggs."
. "What do eggs have to do with Jesus?"
"Oh, well, we'll hide them."
. "I'm not following your logic..."
"Don't worry. There's a rabbit involved."

 

[Poverty]

audi and porsche are seperate companies. they can compete with each other till the cows come home.

 

[Tornado]

audi and porsche are seperate companies. they can compete with each other till the cows come home.

Except they are very quickly approaching a point where that will not be the case. Yeah, Audi and Porsche sell to a different clientele now. But if Porsche goes after 1/3rd of VAG? What about 2/5ths? When will Porsche draw the line and tell Audi to back off of their territory?