Animal testing and the future of Research

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Touring Mars

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This week in the UK, the stakes were raised by animal rights extremist group, the Animal Liberation Front (ALF), whose opposition to the construction of a new biomedical research facility at Oxford University has now been extended to encompass the student body, as well as 'anyone associated with Oxford University in any way'. Threats and intimidation from animal rights extremists are nothing new per se, but this is the first time that the student body has been directly mentioned and directly/indirectly(?) threatened.

The ALF has, thus far, been quite successful in it's campaign of intimidation against those who are involved in the construction of the new lab. In Nov 2004, construction was halted when the company responsible for the construction pulled out after receiving threats. But now that construction is underway once again, the battle has recommenced. What is at stake here? The halting of the expansion of one of the UK's most famous universities, or the future of (biomedical) research as we know it?

What do the ALF* claim, what do they seek to achieve, and how do they seek to acheive it?
*(note that other organisations other than the ALF are also implied here)


The ALF claim that all animal research and associated methods constitute 'fraudulent science' and that non-animal alternatives offer the same level (if not better) models for human function. They argue that animal research belongs in the past, and that it is neither morally justified or scientifically justifiable. They seek to stop the use of animals (in any way) for research purposes. Indeed, they seek to afford the same rights to animals as to human beings, thus they believe that animal testing is morally wrong.

Their methods have evolved from simple protests and demonstrations (usually at the site of the research) to the illegal destruction of labs and facilities (the ALF advocate illegal, non-violent activism) and intimidation of staff of such facilities or associated companies (such as those who finance the facilities).

The Opposition

Direct activism has thus far been targeted mainly at companies directly involved in animal research, research institutes (such as Huntingdon Life Sciences or the NIMR in the UK) and specific University departments (Life Sciences/Biology). Increasingly, banks and other associated companies such as sponsors) have been targeted to undermine the financial stability of such facilities. (the HLS being a prime example) Now, it seems that animal rights extremists wish to extend their remit to any individual who (in their opinion) is involved in animal testing - which presumably extends to anyone associated with any sort of biomedical research, including undergraduate students. Individual professors and research group leaders have long been used to receiving the occasional threat, but this (in my view) represents a new level of threat.

Why do animal research and is it necessary?


The main reasoning behind the use of animals in research is that living animals represent the closest model systems to that of a living human being - thus information that is of benefit to Mankind may be conferred from conducting research/experiments upon animals with a view to refining procedures (or drugs etc.) to be used on humans. (This of course is a major bone of contention with animal rights activists, and is the topic of much debate).

Whether certain types of animal experimentation are necessary is where the controversy really begins. Asked whether or not testing a drug (e.g. a potential HIV vaccine, or anti-cancer drug) is morally justified, most people would answer yes - even if that drug turns out to be toxic or have some horrible side effect that leads to the suffering and/or death of the animal it has been tested on. The process of testing drugs that leads to the production of a tangible and effective therapeutic end is perceived by the public to be acceptable. But asked whether or not testing 'cosmetic' products is justified, the answer is usually no. But there are plenty of other chemical substances that humans use everyday which lie between these two extremes - like paints, detergents etc. The fact that the end use of the product is the determinant of whether the research is acceptable or not is a strange fact. If a drug cures the flu, it may save thousands of lives every winter. But if that same drug also causes birth defects, then the drug company is sued. Similarly, if a household detergent caused cancer, it would be just as serious for the victim, regardless of how useful the detergent actually is. The same logic can be applied to cosmetic products - people don't need to use them (mostly), but people do - so what if the shower gel you use contains a non-tested chemical which later transpired to be carcinogenic?

Is animal research cruel?

We don't experiment on humans because some experiments/procedures could potentially cause a person to experience suffering and/or death. So instead, we decide to carry out these experiments on a system as close to ours as possible - another living creature - and attempt to limit the suffering endured by that animal. But the fact is, a mouse bred to contain cancerous tumours in order to evaluate the efficacy of a cancer drug is going to experience pain and then death. Indeed, depending on your point of view, it is a wretched and some may say even pitiful existance for any creature to endure, even a mouse. But the experiment is allowed because of the potential benefit to mankind.... maybe many thousands of mice will be used to test the efficacy of several drugs, and at the end, the drug with the combination of the highest efficacy and lowest side-effects will move on to the next stage - i.e. higher animals, until such a time it is approved for use on humans in clinical trials. So whether it is cruel or not is not simply a measure of whether an animal suffers or not. Admittedly, some animals will (and do) suffer. But the assessment of whether the experiment is justified must also take into account the (potential) benefit too. In my opinion, 'cruelty' implies a deliberate maliciousness - a pointless, malice-driven, sadistic enjoyment of causing pain to someone or something. It is for this reason that I don't believe that the use of animals in medical research can be described as cruel...

Where do you stand?


It is my opinion that animals can and should be used in experimentation - if the end is justified. But this justifiable end can be (and usually is) so far down the line that it is obscure to the general public. It is my view that fundamental biology (as well as chemistry and other disciplines) rely heavily upon methods and practices that in some way, however small it may be, involve the use of animals or some by-product thereof.

I also think that animal rights activists have a right to demonstrate and to highlight cases of malpractice or unnecessary cruelty - but in my view, these instances are rare. Scientists, and particularly students, should be allowed to carry out fundamental research without the fear or recrimination or intimidation from those who have an alternative opinion.
 
I think they should be allowed. And if those animal rights extremists say that animal should have the same rights as humans, then they should have to obey the same laws, That sucker is paying a fine for walking on my yard then, or for stealing my tennis balls.

They should go ahead and make the research faciality, I would rather sacrifice a few dogs I have never heard of or seen, for a great deal of new knowledge.
 
Although the testing can be cruel at times, it’s done mainly in the name of science and the greater good of humanity… The people doing these tests are far beyond the 9th grade kids you see dissecting dead animals “just to see what they look like with no skin” in biology class. If these people feel so strongly against animal testing why don’t they simply volunteer to be the guinea pigs? Now that would be conviction for the cause. I’m not so much for testing things like makeup, as they must by now know “what stings the eyes” and what doesn’t… But as for medical reasons, fire away… It becomes more of a problem for people when they use bigger animals such as chimps or other primates, but if done for the right reasons, I feel it’s totally acceptable… Seeing as how they are the most like us. Again, you don’t animal rights activists lining up to take the ape’s place, as cute as it is… And despite what people may try to say, there is no substitution for cold hard facts based on first hand testing compared to computer generated results… In the end, it’s people’s lives we are talking about… Who cares if a few billion mice die if we get the cure for cancer or AIDS? (Well apparently the activists… but that’s besides the point).
 
Touring Mars
I also think that animal rights activists have a right to demonstrate and to highlight cases of malpractice or unnecessary cruelty - but in my view, these instances are rare. Scientists, and particularly students, should be allowed to carry out fundamental research without the fear or recrimination or intimidation from those who have an alternative opinion.
That about sums it up for me. Sure, scientists should be somewhat sensitive to what the animals will experience – but there’s no excuse for wanting to completely shut down a biomedical lab.

Does the ALF even know what the definition of “animal” is? Are they going to get all worked up if a scientist cuts up a sponge? What about Acoelomorpha or any other simple animal?
 
I know most people think this is an absurd idea (I've spoken to friends about it) but I think we should add real human experimentation to the list of animals we experiment on. We use animals because we don't understand the suffering they are going through, we don't know what they're saying, if they're saying anything, and we can't imagine what they're thinking. Because of all this we can't put ourselves in their position or relate to what they are experiencing. We don't use humans because we can imagine ourselves in the same situation, we understand the person's cries of pain and stuff, so we think we shouldn't put anyone through that experience.
I think that's dumb. I think we should experiment on those who have deserved punishment like that. We should put useless people to good use. Prisoners, for example. But not all prisoners, only those who are on death row. They're going to die, anyway, and, as with the letal injection, they will have a more painless, more calm, and easier death than a person dieing from normal causes. Why let them do that? They have earned serious punsihment and don't deserve to be babied.
Sorry, I rambled. So, I think we should use human experimentation and use it on those who have deserved serious punishment anyway.
I wonder how many death row people would sign up for experiments voluntarily? Scientists should do a study on that, too, just in case.
 
Great idea... I know of a few thousand criminals serving several life sentences or on death row... And I was just going to use them for their organs... but that can work too..👍
 
I believe testing on animals is only right when it is done for medical reasons, not for substances which will be used for cosmetics.



I don't see a problem in trying out a new type of mascara on the eyeball of a prisoner who was sentenced to death.
 
Some prisoners really do receive an punishment like that, but I couldn't really go along with it. It's too much. As for testing on animals, I am kind of against it. But I can't blame anyone for testing on animals for medical research. It's the most effective way of testing. It's just that I do start putting myself in their(animals) shoes, like some advanced beings testing on human subjects.
smellysocks12
I don't see a problem in trying out a new type of mascara on the eyeball of a prisoner who was sentenced to death.
This is why I missed you around here man! :lol:👍
 
Touring Mars
if the end is justified

But how many animals have to be killed to justify the end?

Hypothetically, say some scientists devise a way to make a human cancer vaccine, the catch is, they have to slaughter 10 million dogs, to make the cancer vaccine stuff. Would that be alright? Most would say yes.

Say the same situation happened, but the difference is, to make a canine cancer vaccine, they had to kill 100 humans. Would that be alright? Most would say no.

I agree with the prisoner testing, if they're going to die anyway, why test sometimes lethal chemicals on some innocent animal.
 
keef
I think we should experiment on those who have deserved punishment like that. We should put useless people to good use. Prisoners, for example. But not all prisoners, only those who are on death row.

This is where the distinction between human rights and animal rights comes into sharp focus... basic human rights laws (and agreements) legislate against 'cruel and unusual punishment', such as medical experimentation. To single out prisoners for medical expermentation implies a deliberacy or a specific malicious intent (i.e. to inflict suffering) that would constitute cruelty. Therefore, I don't think that it could ever be justified.

Besides, humans do volunteer to undergo medical testing - there are companies that pay people good money to try out various things, from drugs to cosmetics. So long as you sign the disclaimer, they will happily pay you alot of money to take the chance... Also, people with incurable disease often submit to be part of a clinic trial, usually as a last resort. People also donate their bodies (after their death) to medical science - so a great deal of human experimentation does go on, without the need to use it as a form of punishment.
 
Sage
Does the ALF even know what the definition of “animal” is?

Given that they are wont to kill people to protect "animals", I doubt it.
 
Famine
Given that they are wont to kill people to protect "animals", I doubt it.

Famine, this is the 1st post ive read of yours that doesnt make sense 👎:dunce:
 
wont = likely, driven by or accustomed to... such as, 'He was posting letters, such is a postman's wont...'
 
Animal rights activists are known to kill people in order to save the lives of animals.

What they don't seem to realise is that people are ALSO animals. So they are actually killing animals by killing people. It's quite ironic really.

They wouldn't kill a cat to protect a mouse, yet they'd kill a person to protect one.


Maybe the confusion is over the word "wont" (pronounced like "want")?
 
ah, thats it, wont to me means will not, :lol:

I never knew another meaning existed!!

My bad
 
Ah, but that "won't" requires an apostrophe. You don't think I would leave that out, surely?

:lol:
 
Famine
Animal rights activists are known to kill people in order to save the lives of animals.

What they don't seem to realise is that people are ALSO animals. So they are actually killing animals by killing people. It's quite ironic really.

They wouldn't kill a cat to protect a mouse, yet they'd kill a person to protect one.


Maybe the confusion is over the word "wont" (pronounced like "want")?

Almost as funny as prolife/anti abortions people shooting doctors... If you're so pro life, go protest at a cemetery... "No, he can't be dead!!! I protest!!!"
 
Casio
But how many animals have to be killed to justify the end?
In the UK, about 2.5 million a year - sounds like alot, but that is just 1 animal per person per 24 year period... in other words, the average person can expect 3 or 4 animals to die in the name of medical research on their behalf in the course of their life time here in the UK...
 
So really... it's not that many... Besides, many of the animals raised for these kind of things are made simply for that... Like Harvard mice. I wonder if we could simply go to India and solve their rat problems at the same time as help solve medical diseases using the rats as research... I'm sure if you ask the average Indian they wouldn't mind getting rid of a few rats/mice.
 
*bumpity bump*

This really pisses me off:
Slashdot
UCLA neuroscience professor Dario Ringach, known for his contributions to our understanding of how the visual system processes information, has been forced to give up his experiments by the actions of animal-rights extremists. Although he and his family had endured harassment and vandalization by animal-rights activists for years, Ringach reconsidered after extremists tried to firebomb a colleague’s home and accidentally left their Molotov cocktail on an elderly neighbor’s doorstep. Ringach sent an email to animal activist groups saying, “You win… please don't bother my family anymore.”

This reply directly mirrors my own thoughts:
devbiowonk
Amid all of the chaos of today’s world (our lovely wars in the middle east etc.), this is the most depressing story I have read all week. A scientist was forced out of a field that he has dedicated a significant portion of his life to by some self-important zealots […]
 
Hey, I'm with you there - it's this extreme tunnel vision that somehow justifies it to them (or any terrorists, I guess). Extremely frustrating.
 
"Self-important zealots" is indeed a good description for these people... almost without exception, you find that the people who carry out these attacks are in no way, shape or form trying to seek a realistic and practical solution to what they consider to be the problem... they merely seek to force other people to adopt the same attitude as they have for no other reason than they believe themselves to be completely 'in the right'. Unfortunately, to adopt the same attitude as animal rights extremists usually involves switching your brain off and to stop thinking altogether. It also requires a great deal of selective and indeed wishful thinking to believe that some of these organisations are trying to acheive something that would actually work in real life.

PETA for example, (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) appears as the acceptable face of animal rights activists, but they still oppose all types of research involving all types of animals, and actively carry out protests and harrassment of staff who they judge to be involved in work that goes counter to their objectives. Unfortunately, their objectives are pretty mixed up. Some appeal to common sense - that animals should not be mistreated. Everyone agrees with that, and this represents the 'thin end of the wedge' of their overall strategy - to appeal to our basic sense of justice and fairness towards otherwise helpless animals. Next, they appeal to those who think that people who contradict their aims should be harrassed and stopped by any means they see fit from doing their work. This includes staff who work in pet shelters who have to put down animals... this is where the wedge starts to get a bit fatter, and more difficult to swallow... Do they not realise that people who work in pet shelters care for animals too? Apparently not. (The biggest irony of all is that PETA have animal shelters and routinely put down animals themselves, yet some of their members/followers still happily protest about the exact same thing that their organisation physically does itself...!!) This is where the problem with animal rights extremists becomes obvious... that the process of critical thinking and rational argument is abandoned in favour of a simplistic and blinkered/singular point of view. This is where most people draw the line.... treat animals without unnecessary cruelty, but that the use of animals is justified under certain circumstances, e.g. the food industry, a small proportion of biomedical research, and of course, the animal care industry itself..... ironically, some of the policies of PETA, which includes 'total freedom' for animals of all descriptions, would almost certainly result in an unfeasible and impractical situation (a total shambles in other words) which is highly unlikely to benefit animals in the longer term... but even if the wishful thinking approach were actually to benefit some animals, I think that it would soon become apparent that mankind was unprepared to abandon what millions of years of evolution has bestowed upon us... the urge to eat animals.

The fat end of the wedge involves those who have gone beyond the process of rational debate and argument, who have concluded that they are absolutely right and that their opponents are absolutely wrong. This is fundamentalism, plain and simple. The fact that they are hypocritical and usually wrong about most things is something that they conveniently ignore.
 
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