Another Inconvenient Truth: E85 Just as Bad as Fossil Fuel, Maybe Worse

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Joey D

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I'm glad someone finally said it and published it.

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Science magazine declares ethanol worse for the Earth than fossil fuels
Jon Markman at MSN Money doesn't hold back when he says "Corn-based ethanol production is sure to go down as one of the greatest mistakes ever in U.S. energy policy." It's even more provoking when he writes "replacing fossil fuels with corn-based ethanol would double greenhouse gas emissions over the next three decades. The studies show that switchgrass, an alternative to ethanol that's more weed than plant, would boost emissions by 50%."

The problem isn't with the cars, the problem is with what it takes to grow the biofuel in the first place. Clearing the land, harvesting, and refining the crops, plus the loss of forest and wild lands and habitats, amounts to creating a carbon footprint worse than fossil fuels. According to the Science article which, admittedly, posits an extreme scenario, it would take 423 years to even out the carbon debt if Indonesia's peat lands were converted to palm oil fields.

The research is starting to give some people pause, such as the folks at the European Union who declared they wanted ten-percent of the block's transport fuel to come from plants. And Joe Fargione of the U.S. Nature Conservancy asks, "Is it worth it? ...urprisingly the answer is 'no'. These natural areas store a lot of carbon, so converting them to crops results in tons of carbon emitted into the atmosphere."


And here is the original article.

IOL
Biofuels might prove worse than CO²
By Steve Connor
Growing crops to make biofuels results in vast volumes of carbon dioxide being released into the atmosphere and does nothing to stop climate change or global warming, according to the first thorough scientific audit of a biofuel's carbon budget.

Scientists have produced damning evidence to suggest that biofuels could be one of the biggest environmental con tricks because they actually make global warming worse by adding to the man-made emissions of carbon dioxide that they are supposed to curb.

Two separate studies published in the journal Science show that a range of biofuel crops now being grown to produce "green" alternatives to oil-based fossil fuels release far more carbon dioxide into the air than can be absorbed by the growing plants.

The scientists found that, in the case of some crops, it would take several centuries of growing them to pay off the carbon debt caused by their initial cultivation.

Those environmental costs do not take into account any extra destruction of the environment, for instance the loss of biodiversity caused by clearing tracts of pristine rainforest.

"All the biofuels we use now cause habitat destruction, either directly or indirectly," said Joe Fargioine of the United States Nature Conservancy, who was the lead scientist in one of the studies.

"Global agriculture is already producing food for six billion people. Producing food-based biofuel too will require that still more land be converted to agriculture."

Both studies looked at how much carbon dioxide is released when a piece of land is converted into a biofuel crop. They found that when peat lands in Indonesia are converted into palm-oil plantations, for instance, it would take 423 years to pay off the carbon debt.

The next worse case was when forested land in the Amazon is cut down to convert into soya-bean fields.

The scientists found that it would take 319 years of making biodiesel from soya beans to pay off the carbon debt caused by chopping down the trees in the first place.

Such conversions of land to grow maize and sugarcane for biodiesel, or palm oil and soya beans for bioethanol, release between 17 and 420 times more carbon than the annual savings from replacing fossil fuels, the scientists calculated.

"This research examines the conversion of land for biofuels and asks the question: 'Is it worth it?' And surprisingly the answer is 'no', Fargione said. "These natural areas store a lot of carbon, so converting them to crops results in tons of carbon emitted into the atmosphere."

Jimmie Powell, a member of the scientific team at the US Nature Conservancy, said: "In finding solutions to climate change, we must ensure that the cure is not worse than the disease."

The European Union is already having second thoughts about its policy aimed at stimulating the production of biofuel.

Stavros Dimas, the EU environment commissioner, admitted last month that the EU did not foresee the scale of the environmental problems raised by Europe's target of deriving 10 percent of its transport fuel from plant material.

Professor Stephen Polasky of the University of Minnesota, an author of one of the studies published in Science, said: "We don't have the proper incentives in place because landowners are rewarded for producing palm oil and other products, but not rewarded for carbon management.

"This creates incentives for excessive land clearing and can result in large increases in carbon emissions." - Foreign Service
 
I can't even imagine what Gore will say since he practically wanted us to use anything more than fossil fuels.
 
There has been rumours of this, and finally someone has proven it. Let's see how quickly companies like Saab change tact in light of the discovery.
 
I can't even imagine what Gore will say since he practically wanted us to use anything more than fossil fuels.

He'll probably skew some numbers and make it look like E85 is slightly better then petrol so therefore we should spend trillions to switch over before polar bears start having to learn to survive on white sandy beaches.
 
Old news, veeery old news, isn't it logical anyway? The idea the crops only come from Europe is a bit :dunce: when you find out how much crop it takes to fill your tank...
 
Old news, veeery old news, isn't it logical anyway? The idea the crops only come from Europe is a bit :dunce: when you find out how much crop it takes to fill your tank...

Yes most of us have been saying the same thing since E85 was made more available but now that someone has published an article on it maybe more information will come out for the general public on how it's not all it's cracked up to be.
 
I'm failing to see why this is 'another inconvenient truth' - an unfortunate one, perhaps, but proving Al Gore/the environmentalists wrong is hardly the issue here. If a specific type of biofuel turns out to be more environmentally damaging than fossil fuels, then obviously environmentalists are not going to advocate their continued use. Development of new, sustainable energy sources is something that we simply have to do, whether we like it or not - regardless of the implications for the environment. As with any process of R&D, there is always going to be a few wrong turns. The fact that biofuels are a sustainable source of energy means that they will have some utility, whether the environmental impact is considered or not. Opponents of Gore and his green cronies won't/shouldn't care a jot that biofuels are no better for the environment than fossil fuels anyway.
 
I think the problem is people, at least here in America, preach E85 like it's the end all answer to our problems. I think part of it has to do with the automotive companies forcing the issue through advertising dollars. The inconvenient truth here is that people are told to believe this stuff is better and that they should be using it, but they are never told the problems with it. Like I said this is the case in America and I don't know what it's like in other parts of the world so I can not speak to that.
 
In some respects I guess it is a good idea to encourage people to get used to the fact that petroleum is going to be a thing of the past in the not-too-distant future. However, if it's being marketed as a 'green' alternative, someone is going to have to think of a new logo...
 
I agree, I am all for using different fuels and I'll be one of the first to say we need to start thinking that way. E85 is being marketed as a greener alternative, which we can see is not.
 
You guys don't think E85 was Gore's cash cow?

Anyway, this is exactly why you don't mess with the free market. Blame ethanol subsidies.
 
Why couldn't this have come before I decided to write my research paper to (sort of) advocate the use of E85 two days ago :grumpy:? I sense a slight topic revision coming.

Do you have the link to the original article, Joey?

So much for the Flex-Fuel Tahoe being the "green" car of the year for 2008. I thought I also read that once the trees were chopped down, the crops would still contribute more to global warming than fossil fuels because of the release of NOx from fertilizers which is far worse than CO2.
 
It was the Hybrid Tahoe that won GCOTY. ;)

:dunce:. I still question them giving a vehicle with that miserable of gas mileage that title. Maybe the GTI should be nominated for the award, because it's greener and it doesn't even have to try. Plus it goes fast at the same time.
 
A 20 MPG Full-Size SUV with a V8 was unheard of before this. I think it deserved it, because now the fuel bills wont hurt as bad.
 
I'm noting that it is only focusing on the fuels made from corn and the like, which may actually be short-selling some of the research being done on BioFuels. Companies like Coskata are working to find new ways to develop fuels from existing products, not to mention otherwise commonly found things such as switch grass.

I'm not giving up on natural alternatives, but clearly there is more work to be done...
 
Findings like this make me feel embarrassed. I just can't believe that all these knowledgeable people don't consider the rest of the picture. Like with hybrid cars. They're more efficient than regular cars. But the process of making hundreds of pounds of batteries for tens of thousands of cars is not exactly the cleanest process. Didn't they ever think about all the emissions caused by making the batteries? And they never thought about what would happen when you try to feed and fuel the world from the same crops? Aren't these the same people that are trying to stop deforestation and habitat loss? And with the whole hydrogen thing, have they ever thought about the fact that they'd have to replace the entire fuel infrastructure in the whole country or world? I can't even imagine what sort of resources went into it in the first place, and what pollution that caused.
And while every new machine I work on at the shop is computerized, everyone is freaking out about what to do with electronic waste. On the other hand, the 60+ plus year old machines that are purely mechanical and hydraulic are still working. The only problems they've caused is a bunch of dirty hands, a few burns, and a lot less electricity than the--ahem--electronic machines that supposedly operate with God's own efficiency. As a matter of fact, it's just the same steel turning the same tools and using more electricity to do it. Seems to me like for every point of efficiency a product gains, there's two lost somewhere in the manufacturing process or in its own operation.
 
A 20 MPG Full-Size SUV with a V8 was unheard of before this. I think it deserved it, because now the fuel bills wont hurt as bad.

That doesn't change the fact that it is a 20 MPG full size SUV with a V8. If you want to give an SUV "green" status, give it over 40 MPG fuel economy. We are not given the right to call a gas guzzler a "green" car just because everybody else drives around a land yacht that guzzles more gas. Is it a green SUV? Maybe. You'll have to get around those 30 MPG crossover things first. Is it a green vehicle? No way. There are cars running around that can easily manage twice that economy, and maybe some that can do triple if driven right. Those are the green cars.


Thanks 👍.
 
I'm noting that it is only focusing on the fuels made from corn and the like, which may actually be short-selling some of the research being done on BioFuels. Companies like Coskata are working to find new ways to develop fuels from existing products, not to mention otherwise commonly found things such as switch grass.

I'm not giving up on natural alternatives, but clearly there is more work to be done...


I´m with you! Here in Sweden a company is making E85 out of leftovers from the forest-industry, and so rendering the whole crops-discussion pointless.

If E85 can be done with leftovers from other industries, the global impact would be zero in terms of production, and the carbondioxide reduced by some, if the cardriven world went for E85 instead of petrol.
 
You realize, Joey, that E85 can be made from things other than corn. Switchgrass, algae, etc. To say that E85 is bad is a very large Gross Generalization. You should be talking about the use of corn specifically, rather than just throwing around a label which really just means 85% alcohol, 15% gasoline. The alcohol in your drink is that very same type.

I am interested in crops other than Corn in the energy growing business.
 
You realize, Joey, that E85 can be made from things other than corn.
The problem is that you still need fossil fuel to make it, and I believe (if my math is correct) that it is more efficient to simply burn 3 gallons of fuel out of every ten then to use ten gallons of ethanol.
Furthermore, no matter how efficient you make the process or production, to actually use the stuff you need to still use petroleum with it.
 
-> Ha, ha, I knew that theres something wrong with E85 since it came out. Ever since I've never liked the concept of Bio-Ethanol. It delivers less gas mileage, in which financially speaking, for the off-set cost of a regular unleaded gas are basically almost non-existant and just a waste of money for just that sparkling "FLEX FUEL" patch on the cars tushie. :indiff:

-> I'd rather get Bio-Diesel and convert it into a waste cooking oil powered motor. ;)
 
-> I'd rather get Bio-Diesel and convert it into a waste cooking oil powered motor. ;)

WORD.

Problem is: I don't know if these new fancy diesel cars/trucks can run on the greasy stuff. Its not like some Mercedes circa-1988 where you can just dump it right in...
 
Whether or not ethanol can be made from other products, it remains a fact that the current majority of ethanol (for fuel) production is produced on fertile land that could be otherwise used to produce food. Because of that, ive never seen ethanol fuel in a positive light.
The ones that are actually a car, but look like an SUV?
Well, a car is better than an SUV.
 
You realize, Joey, that E85 can be made from things other than corn. Switchgrass, algae, etc. To say that E85 is bad is a very large Gross Generalization. You should be talking about the use of corn specifically, rather than just throwing around a label which really just means 85% alcohol, 15% gasoline. The alcohol in your drink is that very same type.

I am interested in crops other than Corn in the energy growing business.

I do understand that but really you are going to be using fossil fuels no matter what you make it out of and it's still going to mess with commodities since it's organic. This will cause the price of something to go up. E85 is bad all the way around, unless you are a Mid West farmer then you love it because you make a truck load of money.
 
I'm going to wait a bit more for info beyond two studies.
Not to say I'm an e85 advocate, but I don't consider two studies enough to completely prove e85 is useless or that its use will be more damaging to the environment.
Just like every other study done there is some bias in this, whether it be the types of fuels researched or the assumptions (such as all lands in indonesia being converted to create E85), there is always some kind of bias.

Bottom line:
This is a very interesting and eye opening subject I look forward to hearing more about.
 
Findings like this make me feel embarrassed. I just can't believe that all these knowledgeable people don't consider the rest of the picture. Like with hybrid cars. They're more efficient than regular cars. But the process of making hundreds of pounds of batteries for tens of thousands of cars is not exactly the cleanest process. Didn't they ever think about all the emissions caused by making the batteries?

They don't care. There's too much money to be made. There's a well-publicized problem, and they have a solution that solves just that problem. Spin up some simple marketing fluff and you look like a hero. Why bother the uninformed/uneducated public about the side effects? That would only make you look bad....

I guarantee you we'll have at least a dozen more "solutions" before someone comes up with the "winner"...which we'll discover 30 years later to have been just as bad as all the others.
 
-> Actually Motor Trend did some research on the E85 when it was introduced few months ago, describing the costs of having an E85 fuel compared to the gasoline counterpart.
 
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