Apple Boot Camp Public Beta! (yay mactels!)

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GTRacer4
I'd wait for a bit before getting a Mac (ie. more confirmation that everything works fine)...I'm still on a PC!

Good advice.... remember when it comes to Apple computers "Fear the Rev A":lol: I'd let the bugs get worked out first especially since this is still in beta. I'm assuming this will be out of beta stage when Leopard comes out. Vista and Leopard on an iMac or MacBook Pro... I can only imagine
 
Sage
And at the same time, they’d be killing themselves. The single worst time during Apple’s 30-year history was when they licensed out their operating system in the mid ’90s to the clone manufacturers – and one of Jobs’s best moves was to kill the clone program. Apple is a hardware company – the Operating System is what sells the computers, but the hardware is where they make their money.
I don't know that they'd be killing themselves.

It is true that they are a hardware company, but unfortunately there isn't anything setting them apart from the PC world at large anymore, therefore losing a great deal of the appeal the hardware prevoiusly had; now it's simply a prettier case.

But besides that, I don't know why everyone bashes on Windows so much. Really, what is there that you can do on a Mac that you cannot do on a PC? Personally I can't think of anything. Along with that, anyone who argues that Windows is unstable at best doesn't know how to set it up properly - I haven't had any of the several computers I use on a daily basis crash in longer than I can remember.

But yeah, all things considered, Macs are cool, and I would like OS X on my PC, with proper driver support and legitimacy.
 
"Really, what is there that you can do on a Mac that you cannot do on a PC?"

People that say this, haven't used Macs much. It's not about what you can do so much (although a Mac does include a lot of free software that lets you do certain tasks incredibly easily), its about what you don't have to do... anti-virus stuff, disk defragging, any swearing at the computer whatsoever... it just works...

Its not that PCs lack design... Its that they straight out don't think about the end user whatsoever! Even a person that "knows how to set it up right" had to bother to LEARN how to set it up right, with (no doubt) some level of screw-ups made along the way.

Macs are a lot more than a pretty box, I'd still buy Macs even if the boxes looked like they just invented a new shade of beige that looked MORE dull than PCs of the 80s! Its all about the ignorant bliss of OSX (whilst just getting on with that you need to DO on the computer...). It may not amaze you on the first day of using one, or the first week... its just that you realise you're not EVER annoyed at the computer for any reason.


EDIT: New info from http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/06/boot-camp-the-day-after/.

Engadget
Now that Apple's Boot Camp is in the wild, there's very little to be said about booting into alternate operating systems on the Mac, right? Wrong! Because, not surprisingly, no sooner did Apple take the wraps off its little 30th birthday suprise, than Mac owners (or non-Mac owners who could cajole friends into lending them their Macs for a spell) began to put the Apple boot manager through its paces. And they've found out quite a few interesting things, including:

>>Boot Camp can load Vista. Or at least the Vista installer. Marc Orchant at ZDNet is one of those using a borrowed MacBookPro, and he was able to load the Vista installer with no problem. Alas, his lender insisted on doing a full backup before allowing Orchant to go any further, so we have yet to see whether a full Vista install is possible -- though we remain optimistic.

>>Boot Camp can load Linux. Or at least a Linux installer. Torifile at applenova.com also got cold feet, and aborted an Ubuntu install after confirming that the setup loaded and was able to recognize a keyboard and other hardware.

>>International editions of Windows will work with Boot Camp. This should come as no surprise, but with a beta product that's designed to do something that isn't supposed to work, you never know. But the PC Watch team in Japan wasted no time and installed the Japanese version of XP Pro without a hitch.

>>Boot Camp can load Windows XP Media Center Edition. Now the Mac mini really is a media PC!

>>Third parties are already filling in some of the gaps. With a basic Boot Camp setup, you can't access your Mac OS X partition from your Windows XP partition. However, MediaFour's MacDrive software solves that problem. Now you can boot into Windows and read and write to your Mac partition, which could allow you to have common settings files for some cross-platform apps. Whether or not it will also allow you to share your iTunes library between partitions remains to be seen.

>>You can boot from external drives, even though Boot Camp's installer won't allow you to set it up. Actually, that may not be true. However, you can create external boot disks using narf and blanka's boot manager (see, there's still a use for it!). And we're pretty confident that someone will find a way to do so within Boot Camp as well very quickly.​

I can't see any technical reason why Vista can't work (in a more official way - perhaps with OSX Leopard) in the future... It's running on the same hardware on PCs as XP does - and thus its the same for Macs too...

Apple even gives a hint how its based on the same underpinnings:

"EFI and BIOS
Macs use an ultra-modern industry standard technology called EFI to handle booting. Sadly, Windows XP, and even the upcoming Vista, are stuck in the 1980s with old-fashioned BIOS. But with Boot Camp, the Mac can operate smoothly in both centuries."
;) Hilarious!

Dunno, kinda implies Vista will just work in the same fashion to me...
 
James2097
"Really, what is there that you can do on a Mac that you cannot do on a PC?"

People that say this, haven't used Macs much. It's not about what you can do so much (although a Mac does include a lot of free software that lets you do certain tasks incredibly easily), its about what you don't have to do... anti-virus stuff, disk defragging, any swearing at the computer whatsoever... it just works...

Its not that PCs lack design... Its that they straight out don't think about the end user whatsoever! Even a person that "knows how to set it up right" had to bother to LEARN how to set it up right, with (no doubt) some level of screw-ups made along the way.

Macs are a lot more than a pretty box, I'd still buy Macs even if the boxes looked like they just invented a new shade of beige that looked MORE dull than PCs of the 80s! Its all about the ignorant bliss of OSX (whilst just getting on with that you need to DO on the computer...). It may not amaze you on the first day of using one, or the first week... its just that you realise you're not EVER annoyed at the computer for any reason.
Funny you mention them working out of the box, and not having to do anything.. I've been using OS X on my laptop recently, just for the heck of it, and one of the things that annoy me the most about it is the lack of being able to do anything. It's set and works, ja, but that's it.

But like you also mentioned, for the average end user, if it works, I suppose they wouldn't want to change anything.

As to the virus issue, the more Macs sell, the more of a problem you're going to have with it. The reason there aren't any viruses isn't because it's dramatically better written code, if at all, it's because 98% of computer users are PC users, and therefore it only makes sense to screw them, rather than Mac users.

But, that's the last I'm going to say anything about OS X vs Windows; I have always said and always will say, neither is better - each have their strongs points, definitely - but neither is better than the other.

I still want OS X, and that's got to say something - But only as a secondary OS.
 
Burnout
As to the virus issue, the more Macs sell, the more of a problem you're going to have with it. The reason there aren't any viruses isn't because it's dramatically better written code, if at all, it's because 98% of computer users are PC users, and therefore it only makes sense to screw them, rather than Mac users.
I know this is supposed to be the case... It'll still be a LONG time before Apple sells enough computers to get significant hax0r attention.... Maybe people just don't like Microsoft as a company and would rather screw them up? Apple does have a very positive and nice public image compared to MS. Maybe the quality of the products goes some way to saving Apple's bum here. Macs are also just inherently less geeky, and hackers just use PCs more, and by default hack them, not Macs. I do believe OSX is a million times more sturdy than Windows from the outset... Ol' Billy is famous for one thing - having more back doors than a chinese fish shop!

From my perspective (having both PC and Mac), the only superior thing about Windows machines is the available software, and (as a double edged sword) the hardware upgradability (and cheapness of those bits and pieces). Both things that aren't really dependent on the OS, as such. You don't owe MS for the best things about PCs (perhaps only for keeping the format open).
 
James2097
Macs use an ultra-modern industry standard technology called EFI to handle booting. Sadly, Windows XP, and even the upcoming Vista, are stuck in the 1980s with old-fashioned BIOS. But with Boot Camp, the Mac can operate smoothly in both centuries."

Dunno, kinda implies Vista will just work in the same fashion to me...

They'll support Windows... but not without bashing it first:sly:

Burnout
...isn't because it's dramatically better written code, if at all, it's because 98% of computer users are PC users, and therefore it only makes sense to screw them, rather than Mac users.

I can see your point, but don't you think there are many hackers out there that want to be known as the one to bring down OS X? That would give more street cred IMO. I do think that one of the reasons for OS X security is the small marketshare... but I it's also a very secure OS to begin with.
 
Well, people are always on about how stable, reliable, etc. Macs/OSX are (is?). Well, spurred by this thread, and sice I was going to the store anyways to pick up a newer TV tuner card (can you even get those for a Mac?) I stopped by the Apple department of the store (it's a Micro Center, for those of you in the US). Of the machines that were on in the store (quite a few were off, suspiciously) two had "crashed", one of the desktop machines was frozen with a buzy cursor and all its fans were blaring away like a jet engine, and the other would just not take any input, granted, the display machines always take a lot of abuse but over in the IBM-compat section every machine was on and working....

The dock was just as I remebered it, pretty, but very hard to click on an icon, and with no textual description of what the icons were, and way too big. I can't say it was any faster than my windows machine, things weren't "intsantaneous" at all. From a programmers perspective, there is no way I would want to work on OSX, Xcode is buggy, and lacks thread support, while MS's Visual Studio is elegant and really helps me code faster. Support for other languages (Java, for example) is at least one revision behind every other platform. I know plenty of Mac developers who develop on a Windows machine and just do their testing on a Mac. That has to say something.

Macs are very good at catering to their (very loyal) user base, but I think it's not an issue of "what can you do on a Mac that you can't do on a PC" but what you can do on PC so much more easily than on a Mac.

And to address issues of anti-virus and virus scan that are so often brought up: how hard is it to schedule a nightly defrag and virus check? Or have them happen during your lunch break? It's just a few clicks...
 
The Macs at that store must be extremely worn out then, the Macs I've tried really are silky smooth and are much nicer to look at IMO.
 
skip0110
Well, people are always on about how stable, reliable, etc. Macs/OSX are (is?).
It is more reliable and stable. Apple wouldn't have much of a selling point if it wasn't. I've NEVER crashed my mac, nor have I seen any of the OSX macs crash throughout my design course I did - rooms and rooms full of them churning away day and night on pretty intensive design work. Sure, you can get 3rd party apps that screw up, but that isn't the OS's fault. If a OSX machine freezes completely - something is most likely wrong with the HARDWARE. It's been abused physically - things corrupted on the HDD etc. Possibly a very badly written 3rd party app mucks with the system files (but I can't see this happening really). Every computer screws up in this situation.

Well, spurred by this thread, and sice I was going to the store anyways to pick up a newer TV tuner card (can you even get those for a Mac?)
Yes, of course you can get TV tuner cards for Macs. Even way back in the LC630 days (around 486 times).

I stopped by the Apple department of the store (it's a Micro Center, for those of you in the US). Of the machines that were on in the store (quite a few were off, suspiciously) two had "crashed", one of the desktop machines was frozen with a buzy cursor and all its fans were blaring away like a jet engine, and the other would just not take any input, granted, the display machines always take a lot of abuse but over in the IBM-compat section every machine was on and working....
If you're telling the truth, which may not be the case (or the truth greatly exagerrated), it would just be EXTREMELY bad luck for that particular group of Macs. OSX is recognised by most computer industry folk to be far more stable, its built off UNIX, as solid as a brick ****-house. I'd wager there was some hardware faults a-foot, especially if it was a very popular store with loads of idiots coming in and out every day. If you look after a Mac like any computer should be looked after - it is more stable and reliable. Hell, I've still got a Mac Plus from 1988 that works perfectly still, and an LC575 (one of the first CD-ROM Macs). No problems or system reinstalls. Ever. At school, the PC labs were always broken down, the macs fine. Everyone I know that has a PC (including me) has had to reformat at some point, sometimes more than once. Yes, we were responsible with our PCs...

The dock was just as I remebered it, pretty, but very hard to click on an icon, and with no textual description of what the icons were, and way too big.
Yes, its pretty. There is text, nice and readable, in white (and bold) at the top of each icon when you mouse-over each of them. You must have chosen to ignore it. Also, you can change the size of the dock to anything you want, down to tiny teeny little icons or even have it disappear when you're not clicking stuff down there. It isn't hard to click on when you get used to it - if you're still having trouble, you can turn off the magnification animations.

I can't say it was any faster than my windows machine, things weren't "intsantaneous" at all.
You can turn off all the animations, it is instant then. They benchmark faster than equivalent (exactly the same chips!) PC boxes. Also, they even run Windows faster than the same equivalent chipped PCs. You can look up any tests that will show this. (Obviously not 3D stuff against a PC with a super-duper GFX card), we're talking stuff that taxes the main CPU mainly. Not to say the Macs suck at games now that Boot Camp is here... And you CAN buy very fancy GFX cards, insane amounts of RAM, various add ons etc for the power macs (the ones in the tower cases). The new power-macs (whatever they end up calling them) still need to be converted to intel... these are the only machines really designed for business stuff and heavy-duty work... all the iMac line is really designed for home users pretty much. Wait for the really fast ones to come out I say... Then judge.

From a programmers perspective, there is no way I would want to work on OSX, Xcode is buggy, and lacks thread support, while MS's Visual Studio is elegant and really helps me code faster. Support for other languages (Java, for example) is at least one revision behind every other platform. I know plenty of Mac developers who develop on a Windows machine and just do their testing on a Mac. That has to say something.
Of course - the Mac just isn't built as a development environment for programmers. Wrong type of buyer completely, and you shouldn't judge it as such. Its made as a consumer product - the perfect home computer or for use in industries like design or music production, where it simply kills PCs and reigns as the industry standard (in my world you'd think the PC/Mac ratios were reversed and Mac by far the dominant platform!). PCs are the industry standard for coding, funny that. Each platform has grown stronger and better supported in different areas depending on the different industries each platform appeals to!

Macs are very good at catering to their (very loyal) user base, but I think it's not an issue of "what can you do on a Mac that you can't do on a PC" but what you can do on PC so much more easily than on a Mac.
Same issue as above. They are much easier for the common consumer who doesn't need to code Java apps, but anything else besides games and certain business apps, and CAD, its better. There is a reason why people are loyal to Macs - and its not their comparitively high price or aesthetics (Macs still sold when they looked just as dull as PCs)! They are simply a joy to use with a very clever and superior OS. Can they do everything a PC can do? Nearly, and lots of tricks a PC can't, and all the common stuff is so much 'nicer'. The gap has become very much in favour of doing MORE with a Mac now with Boot Camp...

And to address issues of anti-virus and virus scan that are so often brought up: how hard is it to schedule a nightly defrag and virus check? Or have them happen during your lunch break? It's just a few clicks...
I sure enjoy not having to worry about viruses, no matter where I go online etc. Hell, they stopped making Norton Anti-Virus for Mac OSX because no one bought it!
I use my Mac heavily any and all hours of the day for design work with hardcore schedules to complete things by - I simply don't see any reason why my computer needs "time out" because it can't manage its own files competently. My Mac just keeps on going, when I REALLY need it to. There is no argument to be made here. Even as a comparitively small feature, its still very helpful for many people! I love not having to think about maintenance rubbish when I just want to do work and think about what I'm actually trying to achieve! That is what Mac is so good at - just letting you get on with it without interfering. Like I said, I never get annoyed at the computer about anything, like I have done time and time again on my Wintel box - yes I definately qualify as a 'power user', I can competently use and 'tune' every aspect XP, I inderstand it being better for coding etc, I don't hate Windows, I have to use both platforms frequently. The Mac is the only one I enjoy using, however.

I know I sound like an advert for OSX, but hey, it doesn't deserve to get knocked unjustly with a strong negative bias. Its not like everyone blindly loves Apple, there IS a reason behind it all... They would go out of business years ago if there was no meat in the pie, as it were. Use it for a month, on a good, non-faulty Mac, set up how you like it etc, and THEN tell me what you think.
 
James2097
Sure, you can get 3rd party apps that screw up, but that isn't the OS's fault.
:D

You whacked the nail on the head.

Do you know how much 3rd party software there is for Windows XP? Have you any clue? This is why PCs have so many more problems than Macs, because the average PC has so much crap installed... I think this shows the supperiority and maturity of the OS rather than weakness; even with all of this 3rd party, unsuported, poorly written software, Windows PCs 8 times out of 10 still wont have a problem - The other reason is because there are like 96 times more of them; so you're going to hear more bad stories about them, simply because there are that many more of them running.

Besides that, I don't think most Mac users would ever admit the OS made a whoopsie.
 
James2097
Yes, its pretty. There is text, nice and big, in white (and bold) at the top of each icon when you mouse-over each of them. You must have chosen to ignore it. Also, you can change the size of the dock to anything you want, down to tiny teeny little icons or even have it disappear when you're not clicking stuff down there.
Mouseover text is useless. If I want to restore one of four text files I have open, I have to mouse over all four. Poor UI design, plain and simple. That said, XP has it's own GUI flaws (one of which I find particulary annoying is the presence of both "Apply" and "OK" buttons in modal dialogs--MS themselves reccomend the use of only an "Apply" button!)
You can turn off the animations, it is instant then. They benchmark faster than equivalent (exactly the same chips!) PC boxes. Also, they even run Windows faster than the same equivalent chipped PCs. You can look up any tests that will show this. (Obviously not 3D stuff with a PC with a super-duper GFX card), we're talking stuff that taxes the main CPU.
I looked it up, it is very close indeed. http://www.geekpatrol.ca/blog/106/ OSX doesn't really offer any speed advantage at the OS-level, though, contrary to what everyone says. Windows wins some, OSX wins some. The tests are run on the same hardware. And OSX has some serious problems with their pthreads implementation, which means that starting new threads takes longer than it should (these may have been fixed in later releases of OSX, not sure).
Of course - the Mac just isn't built as a development environment for programmers. Wrong type of buyer completely, and you shouldn't judge it as such. Its made as a consumer product - the perfect home computer or for use in industries like design or music production, where it simply kills PCs and reigns as the industry standard (in my world you'd think the PC/Mac ratios were reversed and Mac by far the dominant platform!). PCs are the insustry standard for coding. Wow, each platform has grown stronger and better supported in different areas depending on the different industries each platform appeals to!
If no one wants to develop software for OSX, what you have is a platform that is being propped up soley by it's vendor. Someone has to develop the software that is used in design and music production! Apple themselves push forward a lot of the software, but they seriously need to make the platform more friendly for developers. That why Windows is ubiquitous, Microsoft makes it really easy and well-documented for developers. Don't take this as a knock on Apple, if they did this they would be in a much better position as a company.
I know I sound like an advert for OSX, but hey, it doesn't deserve to get knocked unjustly with a strong negative bias. Its not like everyone blindly loves Apple, there IS a reason behind it all... They would go out of business years ago if there was no meat in the pie, as it were. Use it for a month, on a good, non-faulty Mac, set up how you like it etc, and THEN tell me what you think.
When Apple makes a computer that fits my needs, I'll be the first in line :)
 
Burnout
Besides that, I don't think most Mac users would ever admit the OS made a whoopsie.
Look me in the eye. Now - My Mac has never crashed OSX. It has crashed certain programs, but never frozen good and properly.
Older Mac Systems like 7, 8, and 9 did screw up a fair bit more, I have definately seen the "sad Mac" icon from those... I have also heard of certain things mucking with OSX, but apparently you have to try REALLY hard. Would I tell you if my OSX Mac crashed good and properly? Sure, it would still be a hundred less crashes than my PC has done. The truth is, its never crashed, and rarely been turned off or restarted, and I've had it nearly 2 years.

skip0110
Mouseover text is useless
Well, it only applies to the dock which isn't really the main directory of the computer... more like a few shortcuts on your desktop! You only put the main programs there that you use all the time - I'm gonna know what they are! Of course it doesn't have mouse-over file names in the Finder windows...

skip0110
If no one wants to develop software for OSX, what you have is a platform that is being propped up soley by it's vendor. Someone has to develop the software that is used in design and music production! Apple themselves push forward a lot of the software, but they seriously need to make the platform more friendly for developers. That why Windows is ubiquitous, Microsoft makes it really easy and well-documented for developers. Don't take this as a knock on Apple, if they did this they would be in a much better position as a company.
I think this problem is more to do with the ratio of Windows PCs to Macs in the world... There is simply a much greater economic reason to develop Windows apps. There is a fair whack of software available for Mac (hey - everything I need, bar games), so I think you're blowing the problem a little out of proportion. I'm sure you'd get decent support from Apple, things would just be different and perhaps a little clumsier, but evidently people manage to create software for Mac! Sure, its not as easy PC to develop on, but you're also no where near as familiar with it I'm guessing. Adobe etc seem to manage just fine...

skip0110
When Apple makes a computer that fits my needs, I'll be the first in line
Who knows how nice Boot Camp will work in OSX Leopard... it can BE a PC, you can even use a keyboard that's made for Windows with the right button names... Dunno how it can't fit your needs, at least in principal. ;) It would be awfully nice to have both platforms, surely?

Unless the main reason for liking PCs is simply games, and blazing-edge graphics etc! Because a Mac would have the power to do normal dev stuff in Windows... Maybe not developing HALO3 however. :lol:
 
Anyone else think this is getting out of hand? There are things to like with both operating systems.

Apple and OS X has the looks and security, speedy updates, and is feature packed (spotlight, exposé, dashboard, iLife Suite:tup: )...

Windows has the software support and speed (yeah bash me all you want... i really do think XP is pretty fast compared to other OS's.... but do restart it once in awhile though;) ), taskbar, gaming...

When it comes down to it, both are pretty good at what they do. This thread is about Boot Camp beta... think about it, the fact that Apple is supporting this obviously shows that there's room for both operating systems and there is a lot of interest in making them coexist.
 
dougiemeats
Anyone else think this is getting out of hand? There are things to like with both operating systems.

Apple and OS X has the looks and security, speedy updates, and is feature packed (spotlight, exposé, dashboard, iLife Suite:tup: )...

Windows has the software support and speed (yeah bash me all you want... i really do think XP is pretty fast compared to other OS's.... but do restart it once in awhile though;) ), taskbar, gaming...

When it comes down to it, both are pretty good at what they do. This thread is about Boot Camp beta... think about it, the fact that Apple is supporting this obviously shows that there's room for both operating systems and there is a lot of interest in making them coexist.
Hahah, sorry! I never disagreed with anything you've said here though...

Of course the world needs Windows too*...
*So the Mac can have something to look better than.
 
James2097
Hahah, sorry! I never disagreed with anything you've said here though...

Of course the world needs Windows too*...
*So the Mac can have something to look better than.

I won't disagree with you there... Apple is better looking*...
*All show no go...
 
:ouch: aaaah! Ok it has gotten out of hand.... oh well to each his own i guess:)

Edit: Hey Event or anyone else running a dual boot, could you give us an update? Any problems you've run into?
 
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