Are the AI in GT League to blame for dirty driving online?

  • Thread starter SteveDuk
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Unless you're of very young age, I'd argue you'd know the differences in racing versus AI and real people. And anyway, most people prefer to race offline with the same strategies & etiquette they'd use online for training or warm-up. So this is a bit of a silly theory to me.
 
HACHIR0KU
Unless you're of very young age, I'd argue you'd know the differences in racing versus AI and real people. And anyway, most people prefer to race offline with the same strategies & etiquette they'd use online for training or warm-up. So this is a bit of a silly theory to me.
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I sort of understand but a lot of people don't have any experience of racing or even driving at all.
 
SteveDuk
I sort of understand but a lot of people don't have any experience of racing or even driving at all.
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This is why you are required to watch the two introductory videos before entering Sport Mode. Aditionally, you enter a 5-race probationary period, after which your SR/DR will be assigned. If you struggle to improve your ratings after, the fault lies on you, not the AI.
 
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I mean, I dont think so, but they sure arent helping people to drive cleaner.
I dont understand how the ai can be so awful, its like they tried to program it to maybe be clean, but somewhere around the line blue has become red, yes is no, high is low etc. Something must be wrong.
 
There seem to many drivers who think they are entitled to the position and make unfair ham fisted lunges to get in front. Part of racing is following closely and working out exactly when an where you can get past, no one seems to have any patience. Also I’ve come across drivers who will squeeze you off the track.
Then there’s the guys who take revenge, don’t simply assume that contact is deliberate and NEVER take revenge!
 
Catch the rabbit style AI races encourage people to drive like crazy as they try & hunt down the lead car. Some thoughtless license tests also push people into overtaking as many cars as possible as quickly as they can. Sport Mode has no rules, & therefore encourages people to win at all costs as well as gaming the penalty system. You hardly learn anything at all about clean racing in GT alone, until you come to a forum like this & start racing in private leagues. That's when we start to understand imo...
 
On the flipside you could say that the AI accurately prepares you to how the majority of people race online :)

Many things are to blame for dirty driving
- Only wins count, there's no trophy for gaining positions or clean races
- Being careful gets punished, most notably any bump from behind nets you SR loss, therefore it is better to bump than to get bumped.
- Sacrificing yourself, by wall or going wide, gets punished more severely (with shortcut or 5 sec wall penalty) than hitting another car.
- Dirty driving, if caught, rewards you with easier (to win) races

GTS is a social experiment and it's amazing to see so many people that still try to race clean 👍
 
Pururut
Does AI teach something?
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Sure, do the opposite of AI. How to anticipate and avoid contact. This means:

- looking in your mirrors, instead of only looking ahead and turning in on players

- patience: learn to pass cleanly instead of divebombing

- patience: better to finish behind a wild player than get speared off

- patience: better to follow a player than lose pace fighting for position

- learning where players are weak: braking, corner entry, corner exit, etc.

Also, the racing line is usually the quickest way around the circuit. AI are notorious for following the racing line.:sly:
 
05XR8
Sure, do the opposite of AI. How to anticipate and avoid contact. This means:

- looking in your mirrors, instead of only looking ahead and turning in on players
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I only look my back when i get the first position because 2st AI opens up a ridiculous amount of boost.
05XR8
- patience: learn to pass cleanly instead of divebombing
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Overtaking AI feels like overtaking trucks in a highway.
05XR8
- patience: better to finish behind a wild player than get speared off
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I would like to learn how to dodge them when Im On front of them. Staying behind is as same as giving him a free win.
05XR8
- patience: better to follow a player than lose pace fighting for position
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AI is so damn slow you if you stay behind on of them on purpose the time difference between the first one will always increase.
05XR8
- learning where players are weak: braking, corner entry, corner exit, etc.
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AI is practically weak at anywhere. Even on straights they dont try to slipstream.
05XR8
Also, the racing line is usually the quickest way around the circuit. AI are notorious for following the racing line.:sly:
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Except they follow it extremely slow.
 
Sven Jurgens
On the flipside you could say that the AI accurately prepares you to how the majority of people race online :)

Many things are to blame for dirty driving
- Only wins count, there's no trophy for gaining positions or clean races
- Being careful gets punished, most notably any bump from behind nets you SR loss, therefore it is better to bump than to get bumped.
- Sacrificing yourself, by wall or going wide, gets punished more severely (with shortcut or 5 sec wall penalty) than hitting another car.
- Dirty driving, if caught, rewards you with easier (to win) races

GTS is a social experiment and it's amazing to see so many people that still try to race clean 👍
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But why is it like that? Why dont they reward clean drivers? Why is dirty driving better than clean? Is it pd that are dirty them self? Do they like dirty driving over clean? Or have they tried to make the penalty system so that dirty driving should not appear?
 
The Cake
But why is it like that? Why dont they reward clean drivers? Why is dirty driving better than clean? Is it pd that are dirty them self? Do they like dirty driving over clean? Or have they tried to make the penalty system so that dirty driving should not appear?
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They have tried lots of things. Humans are very clever at finding short cuts and ways to abuse the system.

It was better for a while with severe penalties for contact, however the top drivers were complaining they couldn't have a 'normal' race anymore without ending up with penalties all the time. Strict track limits (which Monza was notorious for) was complained about a lot as well and I guess FIA didn't like seeing those penalty trains in all the races.

Every change to the penalty system gets abused. The current SR down for getting hit from behind is to prevent blocking as overtakes are more fun to watch and when the penalty system was strict, people were doing sneaky little brake checks to give the car behind a 10 sec penalty. However now you can abuse it by draft bumping followed by tapping a wall to give the car ahead 3 sec penalty.

Clean driving gets rewarded with a 50% bonus, dirty driving will lower your SR and over time will risk you a DR reset. PD was naive to think this is a deterrent to dirty driving and should not have added a trophy for 91 victories. The problem lies with matchmaking where driving clean and sticking to SR 99 will give you the smallest chance at an occasional victory.

There's not any real world equivalent for the inherent problems with SR and DR. An F1 driver doesn't get satisfaction from easy wins in lower leagues. In GT Sport, people do and any victory counts, dirty or clean, at 99 SR or 1 SR, DR 75K or DR.1, it all counts the same. FIA races do award more points for racing in more competitive rooms yet most people do not care about those.

In conclusion, there is no real incentive to drive with the fastest people at SR.99, except your own sense of 'honor' and accomplishment to compete with the fastest. You actually earn less credits on average by sticking to SR.99 as your finish position will be lower.


PD could adjust the payouts for the avg SR and DR level in a room. The more difficult, the higher the rewards should be. I have suggested this before:
- Restrict clean race bonus to strictly staying on track, that's step one of clean driving.
- Add a contact free bonus stacking with the clean race bonus.
- Add a penalty free bonus stacking with the other bonusses.
- Add a bonus for finishing first in your DR class. (excluding the winner, finish 5th as DR.B with only DR.A and up in front of you, get bonus)
- Base payouts on the SR level in the room, SR.S should earn 5x as much as SR.E.
- Increase the sport mode payouts, decrease the GT League payouts.
Simple things like adding badges or other notifications for others to see post race could help. Instead of red dots, stars and multipliers for reaching the 'clean' objectives. There are lots of ways to encourage clean driving, however PD does little to encourage it. The carrot works better than the stick, yet all PD does is wave the stick less and less without adding incentives for cleaner driving.
 
Sven Jurgens
They have tried lots of things. Humans are very clever at finding short cuts and ways to abuse the system.

It was better for a while with severe penalties for contact, however the top drivers were complaining they couldn't have a 'normal' race anymore without ending up with penalties all the time. Strict track limits (which Monza was notorious for) was complained about a lot as well and I guess FIA didn't like seeing those penalty trains in all the races.

Every change to the penalty system gets abused. The current SR down for getting hit from behind is to prevent blocking as overtakes are more fun to watch and when the penalty system was strict, people were doing sneaky little brake checks to give the car behind a 10 sec penalty. However now you can abuse it by draft bumping followed by tapping a wall to give the car ahead 3 sec penalty.

Clean driving gets rewarded with a 50% bonus, dirty driving will lower your SR and over time will risk you a DR reset. PD was naive to think this is a deterrent to dirty driving and should not have added a trophy for 91 victories. The problem lies with matchmaking where driving clean and sticking to SR 99 will give you the smallest chance at an occasional victory.

There's not any real world equivalent for the inherent problems with SR and DR. An F1 driver doesn't get satisfaction from easy wins in lower leagues. In GT Sport, people do and any victory counts, dirty or clean, at 99 SR or 1 SR, DR 75K or DR.1, it all counts the same. FIA races do award more points for racing in more competitive rooms yet most people do not care about those.

In conclusion, there is no real incentive to drive with the fastest people at SR.99, except your own sense of 'honor' and accomplishment to compete with the fastest. You actually earn less credits on average by sticking to SR.99 as your finish position will be lower.


PD could adjust the payouts for the avg SR and DR level in a room. The more difficult, the higher the rewards should be. I have suggested this before:
- Restrict clean race bonus to strictly staying on track, that's step one of clean driving.
- Add a contact free bonus stacking with the clean race bonus.
- Add a penalty free bonus stacking with the other bonusses.
- Add a bonus for finishing first in your DR class. (excluding the winner, finish 5th as DR.B with only DR.A and up in front of you, get bonus)
- Base payouts on the SR level in the room, SR.S should earn 5x as much as SR.E.
- Increase the sport mode payouts, decrease the GT League payouts.
Simple things like adding badges or other notifications for others to see post race could help. Instead of red dots, stars and multipliers for reaching the 'clean' objectives. There are lots of ways to encourage clean driving, however PD does little to encourage it. The carrot works better than the stick, yet all PD does is wave the stick less and less without adding incentives for cleaner driving.
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Couldn't agree more with everything you wrote, man. As for the (currently still broken) penalty system. Is it too hard to program the game to consider the player's control inputs from the time of the incident as well? After all the game is creating everything that's happening at any given moment, right? So how hard could it be? That should take care of those players who bump you and then hit the wall or slightly go off track on purpose to give you a penalty. Or receiving a penalty for getting hit by a stupid divebomber who came out of nowhere into your (proper) racing line and only managed to make the turn because he used you as brakes. That's happened to me way to many times and frankly I'm getting tired of it. It makes (among other things) completing the Clean race challenge very very difficult, if not impossible. It's really great that since update 1.41 we also get to know the reason for the penalty but that was never really the problem with this system, was it? They haven't done anything with the it for a long time and I'm starting to think that they're happy with it as it is. They don't really care about anyone other than the best of the best and in those races contact and stupid moves are very rare so the penalty system works perfectly because there are no incidents to judge.
 
BaareCZ
Couldn't agree more with everything you wrote, man. As for the (currently still broken) penalty system. Is it too hard to program the game to consider the player's control inputs from the time of the incident as well? After all the game is creating everything that's happening at any given moment, right? So how hard could it be? That should take care of those players who bump you and then hit the wall or slightly go off track on purpose to give you a penalty. Or receiving a penalty for getting hit by a stupid divebomber who came out of nowhere into your (proper) racing line and only managed to make the turn because he used you as brakes. That's happened to me way to many times and frankly I'm getting tired of it. It makes (among other things) completing the Clean race challenge very very difficult, if not impossible. It's really great that since update 1.41 we also get to know the reason for the penalty but that was never really the problem with this system, was it? They haven't done anything with the it for a long time and I'm starting to think that they're happy with it as it is. They don't really care about anyone other than the best of the best and in those races contact and stupid moves are very rare so the penalty system works perfectly because there are no incidents to judge.
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The algorithm you are asking for would need constant updates (daily); to take a drivers racing history, current vs past penalty/driving behavior, current race intensity, and then make an assessment to determine if malice was used and to what degree. Before you say that is how everyone gets an updated SR/DR, consider this: SR/DR updates don't refresh after each penalty, they refresh on10-15 min cycles. The algorithm would need the ability to evolve and expand its own parameters to give a satisfactorily penalty to the offending player, in real world time. Skynet anyone?
 
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I used to believe AI was at fault but not so much anymore.

When I started online, I had finished all the Missions and Challenges and GT League at the time. I thought I was pretty good. But was solidly a DR D. It was at this point I chose to be a clean driver. Watching how others race, I decided I wanted to be like the clean drivers I enjoyed racing with. Even if it meant losing.

900 Sports Mode races later, I have improved considerably. GT League is not as challenging anymore. So I have learned patience. I don't need to make desperation moves. I am confident if I miss an opportunity to pass I can make it up on the next turn.

I still find the AI super helpful. It is a tool. You can use it build things or destroy things. Building takes time. Destroying things is instant gratification.
 
speed_master
The algorithm you are asking for would need constant updates (daily); to take a drivers racing history, current vs past penalty/driving behavior, current race intensity, and then make an assessment to determine if malice was used and to what degree. Before you say that is how everyone gets an updated SR/DR, consider this: SR/DR updates don't refresh after each penalty, they refresh on10-15 min cycles. The algorithm would need the ability to evolve and expand its own parameters to give a satisfactorily penalty to the offending player, in real world time. Skynet anyone?
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DR updates after every race based on your finishing position; SR updates after every race based on your clean sectors (green up arrows) and contact (orange down arrows), there's no "cycle" :confused:
 
The AI, especially in GT League, can be dirty. I've lost 1st place leads to AI cars that spun me out during the final lap of a GT League race, which resulted me in me chasing down said cars and punting them off the track in retaliation. I obviously know better than to do that in an actual online race, but I can totally see other people picking that up as a bad habit and using it against human players.
 
The AIs in GT League are 0% chance to blame for the dirty driving that appears in online daily races.
 
There's no need to blame the AI nor too much sense in blaming any driver for how he behaves on track as that's everyone's own decision ( not saying Sport Mode racing doesn't annoy me ). Blame the game for being unable to match us with likeminded racers instead ... and say it loud so the world can hear !

:gtpflag:
 
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I suspect the real culprit isn't the AI, it's the mindset that exists in general with online gaming: The "Win at all costs" mentality. Regardless of the quality of AI, the current culture that rewards this reckless nature appears to be the true factor at play.
 
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