Asian supercars - where are they?

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Except for the GT-R and the HSC there aren't any other supercars from the other side of the globe. The Imprezas, Evos and RX-8s are sport cars but not supercars. And as we know Toyota has gotten out of the game. The LFA is Lexus which is semi-Japanese.

So, why is there this rarity, Europe and America both have many offerings, the Ferraris, Porsches and Corvettes etc.

Is it because of their image, they are not exotic enough? Not luxurious enough, and what about the modest engine size, the GT-R 3.8L and the HSC 3.5L, where in contrast you see the DB9 with a good 5.9L or the Viper with a massive 8L.

Does their utility image hurt their luxury+sporty ambitions?
 
Honda already tried this long ago. As it turns out, nobody wants to buy a $150,000 Honda. It's about as simple as that.

Jeremy Clarkson agrees when he talks about the LF-A. It's just not right. The world's supercars are about more than just outright performance; they have an aura and passion about them that Japanese culture seems incapable of producing. They make robots, not supercars, and the GT-R and LF-A are perfect examples of this. The NSX was much less robotic, but still not nearly as visceral as the Italian brutes.
 
Except for the GT-R and the HSC there aren't any other supercars from the other side of the globe. The Imprezas, Evos and RX-8s are sport cars but not supercars. And as we know Toyota has gotten out of the game. The LFA is Lexus which is semi-Japanese.

So, why is there this rarity, Europe and America both have many offerings, the Ferraris, Porsches and Corvettes etc.

Is it because of their image, they are not exotic enough? Not luxurious enough, and what about the modest engine size, the GT-R 3.8L and the HSC 3.5L, where in contrast you see the DB9 with a good 5.9L or the Viper with a massive 8L.

Does their utility image hurt their luxury+sporty ambitions?

dont the Japanese car manufactures have agreed to a gentlemens agreement, which states, that an engine doesnt produce more then 276bhp?

Guess the GTR was an exeption and we know that the Japanese love to turbocharge every engine, so no need for V8's and 4+L engine displacement

Chris
 
^I read somewhere that the agreement is now obsolete, don't know if it's true.

As for the turbo, so the only disadvantage is the lag or lower low-end torque as opposed to V8s and above to the benefit of economy?
 
That agreement didn't really last at all. Toyota and Nissan were releasing the Supra and Skyline with over 300HP, advertised at 276. This is reflected in all of the GT games, where it says 276 in the dealership, 325 or so when you look at it in your garage. It ended up making chumps out of Honda (the NSX engine is right about 276 and doesn't have a whole lot left on the table) and Mazda (the FD started out with 255HP, well short of the competition).

After that, it was pretty much forgotten about. Toyota didn't find their sports cars lucrative, while Honda and Nissan decided they could only turn a profit making sports cars for the masses (the hugely successful Z and to a lesser extent, the favored yet uncompetitive S2000). Nissans Z flourished because it used the same engine as everything else in their lineup. Existing sports car models can last because people know what they're getting from a Porsche/Aston/Ferrari, and everyone who sees it knows what they've got. The Corvette, although a Chevy, is as iconic as it gets. It's also got a very low production cost (mainly due to its engine), and no matter how fast or slow it is, it's going to sell because of its place in Americana.

It's a volatile market to jump into, and being known for the most boring and pragmatic cars in the world isn't going to earn the respect it takes to move your product.
 
Don't forget about the Oulim Motors Spirra. Lexus is not semi-Japanese, it's full Japanese. With the R35 included that's 3 Asian supercars.
 
Different countries, different cultures.

Germany engineers driving machines.
Italy crafts vehicles with passion - exotics.
America lumps big motors into big machines - muscle cars & SUVs.
Japan crams tech into tiny packages - k-cars.

Result? Japanese muscle cars are as common as American superminis.
 
Different countries, different cultures.

Germany engineers driving machines.
Italy crafts vehicles with passion - exotics.
America lumps big motors into big machines - muscle cars & SUVs.
Japan crams tech into tiny packages - k-cars.

Result? Japanese muscle cars are as common as American superminis.

I think you're kind of oversimplifying it...

Tell a German to build the best car he can, and it will, simply put, be engineered like a watch - precise, unmoving, made to be a solid hunk of metal that moves anywhere you want it to...without much drama. It is subservient and willing, yet competent, if not the most stylish. It does what is said right on the box, nothing more, nothing less...but it can say quite a bit on that box.

To an Italian, a car is designed to combine handmade tradition with incredible technology, and burning passion. It looks backwards and forwards equally, taking the latest tech developed from motorsport, and then applying years of head-turning style and design to create the ultimate attention grabber. It is not subtle in any means. Reliability? pah. It's all about making the driver the center of attention.

Tell an American to build the best car in the world, and he'll go one of two directions: one, he'll build the biggest, cushiest car in the world, a fast, comfortable highway crusier that'll make traveling thousands of miles a breeze...or, he'll take engine from said highway cruiser, stick it in the smallest thing it'll fit in, stiffen the suspension, put a nasty cam in it, and call it a sporting car. Sometimes (like the Cobra (technically half British) or C6 Corvette) it's a brilliant triumph of brutish backwoods engineering...sometimes (see new Challenger, or old one, for that matter.) it isn't. Sue us. We're simple folk, and cheap, too.

A Brit has forgotten how to make a car, but, it used to be, if you told him to make the best thing he can, you'd get an understated, reasonably powerful car that, if it ran correctly, could give a nasty surprise to the unsuspecting Italian or German. It would be lovingly handcrafted, using traditional methods passed down, it would smell and look wonderful. You'd get the feeling that someone actually made this with their own two hands...it's craftsmanship that matters. Sadly, the Germans (and former colonists in India) have largely taken over due to some refusals to work in the '70s.

If you ask the Swede to build you the best car he can...I'm not sure exactly what you'll get. It'll be unique, and fairly reliable that's all I can tell you.

Which brings us to the Japanese. Now, relatively speaking they're young folk who haven't been at this game as long as the rest of us, and for many years, they've been struggling to find their identity in the automotive world. But, now, with the LF-A and GT-R, they seem to have found their voice. and it is Electronic. Think about it: These are people who love Robotics, who are experts at building the electronic device...hell, where is the console we play the game this forum was founded around made? eh? eh?

So it follows, that if you ask a Japanese man to build the best car he can, he will dig into modern Japanese culture: of Mecha and Video Games and Technology. Of Electronics and connectivity. He'll build a technological tour de force, he'll try to keep it on the cutting edge. and why shouldn't he? He has no past to build upon, where as every other major automaking country...Every single one...has a long and storied history at least leading back to the 1900s. The Japanese carmaker does not...and thus he is not bound by those limitations and expectations.

It's why I like the GT-R so much. It's not supposed to be willing and competent, or brash and loud. It's supposed to move forward boldly into the future. it's not ashamed of being Japanese...hell, they even said themselves that Gundam Wing was a partial inspiration for the car. It's Japanese culture in a compact, roughly 5' by 10', 180+ mph capable package.

I understand it's not always everyone's thing, and that such a challenge to the status quo kind of unnerves some people. They'll attempt to belittle it because it's new, and not what they're used to. Even if it's absolutely brilliant.

But to each his own. Who knows...with Korea on the upswing, and China and India not far behind, when these countries are asked to make the Best Car in the World in 10 to 30 years, what will they come up with? I'm almost excited to find out. That is...if the Governments of the world haven't conspired to kill the car altogether.
 
Damn, Jim, I wish I could +rep you for that post. Seriously.

Also, I'd call the NSX a supercar, at least when it first came out, but I'm sure any number of people who agree here can explain much better than me.
 
I think you're kind of oversimplifying it...

Tell a German to build the best car he can, and it will, simply put, be engineered like a watch - precise, unmoving, made to be a solid hunk of metal that moves anywhere you want it to...without much drama. It is subservient and willing, yet competent, if not the most stylish. It does what is said right on the box, nothing more, nothing less...but it can say quite a bit on that box.

To an Italian, a car is designed to combine handmade tradition with incredible technology, and burning passion. It looks backwards and forwards equally, taking the latest tech developed from motorsport, and then applying years of head-turning style and design to create the ultimate attention grabber. It is not subtle in any means. Reliability? pah. It's all about making the driver the center of attention.

Tell an American to build the best car in the world, and he'll go one of two directions: one, he'll build the biggest, cushiest car in the world, a fast, comfortable highway crusier that'll make traveling thousands of miles a breeze...or, he'll take engine from said highway cruiser, stick it in the smallest thing it'll fit in, stiffen the suspension, put a nasty cam in it, and call it a sporting car. Sometimes (like the Cobra (technically half British) or C6 Corvette) it's a brilliant triumph of brutish backwoods engineering...sometimes (see new Challenger, or old one, for that matter.) it isn't. Sue us. We're simple folk, and cheap, too.

A Brit has forgotten how to make a car, but, it used to be, if you told him to make the best thing he can, you'd get an understated, reasonably powerful car that, if it ran correctly, could give a nasty surprise to the unsuspecting Italian or German. It would be lovingly handcrafted, using traditional methods passed down, it would smell and look wonderful. You'd get the feeling that someone actually made this with their own two hands...it's craftsmanship that matters. Sadly, the Germans (and former colonists in India) have largely taken over due to some refusals to work in the '70s.

If you ask the Swede to build you the best car he can...I'm not sure exactly what you'll get. It'll be unique, and fairly reliable that's all I can tell you.

Which brings us to the Japanese. Now, relatively speaking they're young folk who haven't been at this game as long as the rest of us, and for many years, they've been struggling to find their identity in the automotive world. But, now, with the LF-A and GT-R, they seem to have found their voice. and it is Electronic. Think about it: These are people who love Robotics, who are experts at building the electronic device...hell, where is the console we play the game this forum was founded around made? eh? eh?

So it follows, that if you ask a Japanese man to build the best car he can, he will dig into modern Japanese culture: of Mecha and Video Games and Technology. Of Electronics and connectivity. He'll build a technological tour de force, he'll try to keep it on the cutting edge. and why shouldn't he? He has no past to build upon, where as every other major automaking country...Every single one...has a long and storied history at least leading back to the 1900s. The Japanese carmaker does not...and thus he is not bound by those limitations and expectations.

It's why I like the GT-R so much. It's not supposed to be willing and competent, or brash and loud. It's supposed to move forward boldly into the future. it's not ashamed of being Japanese...hell, they even said themselves that Gundam Wing was a partial inspiration for the car. It's Japanese culture in a compact, roughly 5' by 10', 180+ mph capable package.

I understand it's not always everyone's thing, and that such a challenge to the status quo kind of unnerves some people. They'll attempt to belittle it because it's new, and not what they're used to. Even if it's absolutely brilliant.

But to each his own. Who knows...with Korea on the upswing, and China and India not far behind, when these countries are asked to make the Best Car in the World in 10 to 30 years, what will they come up with? I'm almost excited to find out. That is...if the Governments of the world haven't conspired to kill the car altogether.


I can tell your 9000+ posts haven't been wasted. Some real interesting insight you've got there and I absolutely agree with it. Good writing! 👍
 
Is it because of their image, they are not exotic enough? Not luxurious enough, and what about the modest engine size, the GT-R 3.8L and the HSC 3.5L, where in contrast you see the DB9 with a good 5.9L or the Viper with a massive 8L.
Does their utility image hurt their luxury+sporty ambitions?
The Asians are masters of getting the most out of the very little. I believe they usually stick to engineering such "small" products because of their own large populations, and try to find ways to achieve what everyone else does whilst being efficient.
The NSX was much less robotic, but still not nearly as visceral as the Italian brutes.
That's far from true, Keef. The NSX is the sole reason Ferrari turned around in the 1990's. You could almost say it's part of the reason Ferrari is where it is now. Even up til' the early 2000's, the NSX was on Ferrari's heels.
 
I mostly agree, but your assessment that Japan has no corporate past to draw on is a partial fallacy. the companies that these cars came from were other industries to begin with. Toyota was a manufacturer of textiles, Subaru's owner builds ships, the most infamous plane in WW2 was a Mitsubishi, and we all know that Honda came from a motorcycle nut.

all this is stated in the corporation blurbs that crawled across the bottom of the screen in GT4 when you stopped at the deaership.
 
I didn't mean to say that, no, but I'm kind of talking about their automotive direction, particularly in the upper eschelons. Used to be that Japanese cars were simply generic, fairly reliable cars whose only issue was that they rusted quickly. and even then, everything else rusted quickly, too.
 
don't remind me. both my toyotas disintegrated 'cause of toyo's paper thin bodies. paper thin electrical wiring didn't help either.
 
^Which models do you have? Our Toyota Corolla '97 still goes strong after +160000 miles. Quite a workhorse.
 
^Which models do you have? Our Toyota Corolla '97 still goes strong after +160000 miles. Quite a workhorse.

they were eighties designs, and I bet they don't salt the roads in winter, there.

I don't know what they call the Camry at home in Japan. I had the first year car. I also had a 90 Hi Lux Surf.
 
I think it's mainly because no Japanese manufacturer really took that leap forward towards mass production of a supercar.

The Toyota 2000GT and the Nissan/Prince R380 were first (although I'm not sure the latter was ever produced for road use), in the mid-1960s. Even then, Toyota made very few of them. By the mid-1970s, most supercars were non-existant, save for Italian marques. Japanese manufacturers focused on their smaller and more popular fare for export, and slowly found success with that with the 1973-74 Oil Crisis. True, there were sports/sporty cars, but more of the nimble, light-weight stuff that Britain and Germany made in the 1960s. Nissan kind of threw the first stone with the MID-4 concept in 1985. It never saw production, but the technology made its way to the GT-R R32 (if not the mid-engine configuration and design). Toyota tried a few concepts, but was conservative then, although eventually the Supra Twin Turbo came about, which wasn't until the late-1980s/early-1990s.

Sports cars aren't typically profitable, unless your entire portfolio is backed up by racing heritage (Porsche) and/or the intangibles which thrust the product name into legendary status (Ferrari). That's because average person "knows" what a Porsche or Ferrari will do (...I say so in quotes because the average person thinks they are capable of their own space program and competing at the 24 Hours of Le Mans also long as they have a passport). With the "bubble economy" collapsing in Japan circa-1991, no manufacturer was willing to take that next step. I think Honda was willing, with the NSX, but oddly made few changes to it over a decade that the public demands in a world-wide automobile marketplace.

I think they (all) focused on different things to keep factories turning out cars, keeping jobs, keeping a certain harmonious workforce and keeping the status quo so that nobody's ship would sink. The profits form the sedans and compact stuff could buttress a sports-car program, or better yet...a world-wide racing program that stamps the product name into memory. I think the supercar-next-step wasn't taken because the Japanese industry usually doesn't typically make publicly bold moves all at once; it makes small steps towards its goal. It sounds easy to say it, but nobody wants to publicly fail; even the mention of a ludicrous-plan-that-isn't-stand-alone-profitable it to a conservative CEO might mean demotion.

It really wasn't until Nissan's latest GT-R (R35) was proven worldwide to spank or harass the competition, that the rest of the manufacturers on the main island took notice. But in the economic conditions such as they are, it might be foolish to spend money on these things. Toyota took several years (lets remember that it used to take 4-5 years for a new product to come out from scratch), but finally has their LF-A...but at what a cost! To which I say, after public flogging, umpteen recalls, doling out reliable vanilla in a ABS-molded cone (sprinkles are part of a dealer-added package)...let alone the price of its chirpy key-less entry and its quietly smooth door movement exit! Bold is beautiful, I say, and those who want it will come and get it because they get it.

I think we will see more and more, but slowly and surely.
Naysayers haven't driven them yet, they drive keyboards and drive us mad with their negative thoughts (...Although neither have I, to be fair).
And wait until they bring out electric cars.
 
the most infamous plane in WW2 was a Mitsubishi

Err, I know it's off topic but I think there are many that would disagree with that statement!

Edit..

Slightly more on topic, Most "super" cars do still seem to come from Europe, but some of the most iconic sports/performance vehicles in the past 10-15 years have come from Japan, cars that are really deeply embedded now in a lot of car culture... the R32 > R35 GT-R for instance, and the Supra, The Lancer/Evo and the Impreza are performance machines that based their whole reputation on motorsport. The NSX was a hugely underrated car IMO, and the LF-A is destined to have a cult following. Perceptions will change, the generation that's growing up now will know of Lexus as the company that made the astonishing LF-A, not the company that made bland exec saloons from Toyota models... I think the USA is also in a similar situation, I'm 30 and the only cool cars I can remember being from America were KITT, and the Bandits Trans-Am... these days however, there are some impressive, good looking cars coming out of the states, and they will change the perception of American cars for young people who are new to car culture in general.
 
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Err, I know it's off topic but I think there are many that would disagree with that statement!

Edit..

Slightly more on topic, Most "super" cars do still seem to come from Europe, but some of the most iconic sports/performance vehicles in the past 10-15 years have come from Japan, cars that are really deeply embedded now in a lot of car culture... the R32 > R35 GT-R for instance, and the Supra, The Lancer/Evo and the Impreza are performance machines that based their whole reputation on motorsport. The NSX was a hugely underrated car IMO, and the LF-A is destined to have a cult following. Perceptions will change, the generation that's growing up now will know of Lexus as the company that made the astonishing LF-A, not the company that made bland exec saloons from Toyota models... I think the USA is also in a similar situation, I'm 30 and the only cool cars I can remember being from America were KITT, and the Bandits Trans-Am... these days however, there are some impressive, good looking cars coming out of the states, and they will change the perception of American cars for young people who are new to car culture in general.

shoulda said the most infamous Japanese plane.

i think people are going by the strict Price definition rather than the performance (100k and up), although performance HAS to come into it

trivia: though the Bandit Trans-Am's did generate sales for pontiac, they said "NUH-UH Mate" when KITT generated repeat business, and had everything associated with them removed from the series.
 
NSX, GT-R, LF-A...ermmm...
Yeah, can't really think of many. I'm sure there's more right?

Let's hope we can add to this list in the near future, with the quality of cars on par or better than the Ferrari and Lamborghini type of automobiles we all know and love.
 
I think you're kind of oversimplifying it...

Tell a German to build the best car he can, and it will, simply put, be engineered like a watch - precise, unmoving, made to be a solid hunk of metal that moves anywhere you want it to...without much drama. It is subservient and willing, yet competent, if not the most stylish. It does what is said right on the box, nothing more, nothing less...but it can say quite a bit on that box.

To an Italian, a car is designed to combine handmade tradition with incredible technology, and burning passion. It looks backwards and forwards equally, taking the latest tech developed from motorsport, and then applying years of head-turning style and design to create the ultimate attention grabber. It is not subtle in any means. Reliability? pah. It's all about making the driver the center of attention.

Tell an American to build the best car in the world, and he'll go one of two directions: one, he'll build the biggest, cushiest car in the world, a fast, comfortable highway crusier that'll make traveling thousands of miles a breeze...or, he'll take engine from said highway cruiser, stick it in the smallest thing it'll fit in, stiffen the suspension, put a nasty cam in it, and call it a sporting car. Sometimes (like the Cobra (technically half British) or C6 Corvette) it's a brilliant triumph of brutish backwoods engineering...sometimes (see new Challenger, or old one, for that matter.) it isn't. Sue us. We're simple folk, and cheap, too.

A Brit has forgotten how to make a car, but, it used to be, if you told him to make the best thing he can, you'd get an understated, reasonably powerful car that, if it ran correctly, could give a nasty surprise to the unsuspecting Italian or German. It would be lovingly handcrafted, using traditional methods passed down, it would smell and look wonderful. You'd get the feeling that someone actually made this with their own two hands...it's craftsmanship that matters. Sadly, the Germans (and former colonists in India) have largely taken over due to some refusals to work in the '70s.

If you ask the Swede to build you the best car he can...I'm not sure exactly what you'll get. It'll be unique, and fairly reliable that's all I can tell you.

Which brings us to the Japanese. Now, relatively speaking they're young folk who haven't been at this game as long as the rest of us, and for many years, they've been struggling to find their identity in the automotive world. But, now, with the LF-A and GT-R, they seem to have found their voice. and it is Electronic. Think about it: These are people who love Robotics, who are experts at building the electronic device...hell, where is the console we play the game this forum was founded around made? eh? eh?

So it follows, that if you ask a Japanese man to build the best car he can, he will dig into modern Japanese culture: of Mecha and Video Games and Technology. Of Electronics and connectivity. He'll build a technological tour de force, he'll try to keep it on the cutting edge. and why shouldn't he? He has no past to build upon, where as every other major automaking country...Every single one...has a long and storied history at least leading back to the 1900s. The Japanese carmaker does not...and thus he is not bound by those limitations and expectations.

It's why I like the GT-R so much. It's not supposed to be willing and competent, or brash and loud. It's supposed to move forward boldly into the future. it's not ashamed of being Japanese...hell, they even said themselves that Gundam Wing was a partial inspiration for the car. It's Japanese culture in a compact, roughly 5' by 10', 180+ mph capable package.

I understand it's not always everyone's thing, and that such a challenge to the status quo kind of unnerves some people. They'll attempt to belittle it because it's new, and not what they're used to. Even if it's absolutely brilliant.

But to each his own. Who knows...with Korea on the upswing, and China and India not far behind, when these countries are asked to make the Best Car in the World in 10 to 30 years, what will they come up with? I'm almost excited to find out. That is...if the Governments of the world haven't conspired to kill the car altogether.

You forgot the Aussies... similar to the yanks they grab big V8, throw it under the hood of a large 4 door family saloon, stiffen the suspension, and you end up with a cross between the american cruiser, and the american sports car!
 
Jim Prower's post is fun and awesome, but the japanese could do more than electronic stuffs, yes, it's their specialty since the end of WW2, but they also did produce some fantastic sport cars, the 70's KPGC10 GTR, 2000GT, S800, and so on.. they didn't produce a huge amount of supercars simply because it wasn't in their best interest to, HP restrictions, huge taxes on cars, Most cities are small and favors smaller efficient cars. So building sport cars became more popular, and you can't exactly call a car with barely 300hp on paper a supercar.

Cars became more electronic and computerized (R35 GTR?) later on, but almost everything else was too in the 90's, it wasn't just japan, they were just associated and known well for electronics, the miata, S2000 were all still very pure sport cars with personality and souls.

Building well balanced sport cars in japan beat trying to build underpowered and low selling supercars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9sLsAOgTAE
Watch that and tell me that they're robotic in their approach to building cars.
 
Nissan_R390_GT1_4892f60c3e82a.jpg

Yeah there are only two, but still...

I never saw the GT-R as a super car, it's a sports car imo. Same with the LFA (and the mentioned Vette and 911).
 
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