Audi PB18 e-tron

[Clean Racer]

Ok, not that last one.

Well played, my friend. You, are brilliant.

 

[xavi7elevenWRC]

I really feel like it's not much of a benefit going from mostly gas cars to mostly electric cars because a lot of the electric comes from things that cause harm to the environment the same way a gas car would. They also have to mine for the materials to use for batteries.

Tell me more?
Are you talking about hydro, solar, wind?

Electricity to petrol distillation using pure clean water?
What about the wars to get petrol?
What about the vessels that sink on the sea?

Lithium is a salt, not an organic underterrain liquid.

A lot to say, nothing to compare.

 

[Famine]

Are you talking about hydro, solar, wind?

Right now, Spain is generating 34.31% of its electricity from these sources. It's worth noting that they are not carbon-free either - it takes quite a bit of energy to build the structures required (wind turbines in particular are very, very expensive to make and transport) - but it gets a bit recursive before long, so it's worth considering them as carbon neutral for these purposes.

The rest of Spain's energy mix comes from coal at 16%, nuclear at 21%, waste incineration at 11% and natural gas at 8%. The rest is purchased from abroad.

At present, Spain is producing 7.48 tonnes of CO2 per hour, to generate just over 24MW of electricity, or about 310kg CO2/MWh. To fill up this Audi's 95kWh battery from scratch you'd need 29kg CO2. If it can meet its claimed 310-mile range, that would be 95g CO2/mile, or 59g CO2/km. Of course this will change depending on whether it's sunny (which, in Spain, is a given unless it's night) or windy, but 300kg CO2/MWh is a decent mean figure.

You can watch Spain's electricity generation mix and capacity live here: https://demanda.ree.es/visiona/peninsula/demanda/total


For a quick comparison, the UK's last hour had 6.59 tonnes of CO2 for 27.734MW, or 273kg CO2/MWh. The Audi here would be a 52g/km car.

What about the wars to get petrol?
What about the vessels that sink on the sea?

I'm not sure war can be quantified in CO2 - although the number of people dying in them is a big tick in the reduction box.

Ships that sink on the sea aren't really relevant to motoring, unless they're carrying cars. They carry electric cars too - as Greenpeace found out when it blockaded and vandalised a ship carrying Volkswagens because of Dieselgate, but failed to notice that VW makes several EV and PHEV models which were also on the ship...

Lithium is a salt, not an organic underterrain liquid.

Lithium is a metal. It's not a salt unless it combines with a non-metal, such as in lithium chloride. It also pretty much is an "underterrain liquid" - although not an organic one - as the most common production method is to pump subterrainean brine into surface evaporation pools, then electrolyse the lithium chloride (which uses electricity).

However, lithium isn't the only component in a lithium ion battery. The most common BEV tech is lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide cathode (NMC). Manganese and nickel are mined in open cast and cobalt is strip-mined. All three require further purification through electrowinning (which uses electricity) and two require extreme heat (which uses electricity).


The phrase we're all looking for is "well to wheel" - the approximate CO2 cost of a vehicle not just on the road but from its raw materials before it's a car and to other components (recycling) after its life as a car, and all points in-between (including driving).

I was at a Mazda presentation a little while back where Mazda suggested that a mean well-to-wheel figure for an average EV would be around 126g/km. It also had a well-to-wheel figure for its Mazda 2 with SkyActiv-G at 142g/km (compared to 118g/km for the on-the-road emissions). The reason it had come up with these figures was not to rubbish EVs, but to point out that it only needed a 10% improvement in its petrol engines to match whole-life carbon costs of EVs - and was focused on that so that when it came to include electricity in its powertrains to make hybrids, they'd be as efficient as possible.


Ultimately, EVs are now more efficient than non-EVs when it comes to well-to-wheel - but it's not as big a gap as you'd imagine. Especially when a car such as this Audi needs to use CO2-intensive materials like aluminium and composites (some of which will lock carbon away for the life of the car, but are still costly to produce in electricity terms) to keep the weight of the car down.

 

[TexRex]

The phrase we're all looking for is "well to wheel" - the approximate CO2 cost of a vehicle not just on the road but from its raw materials before it's a car and to other components (recycling) after its life as a car, and all points in-between (including driving).

This should appear very early on (like...second post) in every thread regarding EVs, because the [not entirely daft*] narrative that suggests EVs bring with them environmental and infrastructure concerns almost invariably manifests at some point.

*It seems to me that while there's a logical foundation to the narrative, that foundation serves as a springboard for fallacies that presuppose worst-case scenarios such as the source of electricity used to power EVs and the strain on the grid caused by 4 million new EVs hitting the road in a single day without anything having been implemented to support them...like, ohmygawd.

As EVs become more and more common (they're still just a drop of water in the bucket of "ICE"), I suspect improvements will be made not only in their manufacturing processes but also in energy production required to support them. Both will be a necessity and a lack thereof will result in demand--and production as a result--being impeded.

 

[HuskyGT]

It's really nice despite it's a concept. Something that would make it better would be a thick set of quad exhausts under the rear bumper.

 

[xavi7elevenWRC]

Right now, Spain is generating 34.31% of its electricity from these sources. It's worth noting that they are not carbon-free either - it takes quite a bit of energy to build the structures required (wind turbines in particular are very, very expensive to make and transport) - but it gets a bit recursive before long, so it's worth considering them as carbon neutral for these purposes.

The rest of Spain's energy mix comes from coal at 16%, nuclear at 21%, waste incineration at 11% and natural gas at 8%. The rest is purchased from abroad.

At present, Spain is producing 7.48 tonnes of CO2 per hour, to generate just over 24MW of electricity, or about 310kg CO2/MWh. To fill up this Audi's 95kWh battery from scratch you'd need 29kg CO2. If it can meet its claimed 310-mile range, that would be 95g CO2/mile, or 59g CO2/km. Of course this will change depending on whether it's sunny (which, in Spain, is a given unless it's night) or windy, but 300kg CO2/MWh is a decent mean figure.

You can watch Spain's electricity generation mix and capacity live here: https://demanda.ree.es/visiona/peninsula/demanda/total


For a quick comparison, the UK's last hour had 6.59 tonnes of CO2 for 27.734MW, or 273kg CO2/MWh. The Audi here would be a 52g/km car.

I'm not sure war can be quantified in CO2 - although the number of people dying in them is a big tick in the reduction box.

Ships that sink on the sea aren't really relevant to motoring, unless they're carrying cars. They carry electric cars too - as Greenpeace found out when it blockaded and vandalised a ship carrying Volkswagens because of Dieselgate, but failed to notice that VW makes several EV and PHEV models which were also on the ship...

Lithium is a metal. It's not a salt unless it combines with a non-metal, such as in lithium chloride. It also pretty much is an "underterrain liquid" - although not an organic one - as the most common production method is to pump subterrainean brine into surface evaporation pools, then electrolyse the lithium chloride (which uses electricity).

However, lithium isn't the only component in a lithium ion battery. The most common BEV tech is lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide cathode (NMC). Manganese and nickel are mined in open cast and cobalt is strip-mined. All three require further purification through electrowinning (which uses electricity) and two require extreme heat (which uses electricity).


The phrase we're all looking for is "well to wheel" - the approximate CO2 cost of a vehicle not just on the road but from its raw materials before it's a car and to other components (recycling) after its life as a car, and all points in-between (including driving).

I was at a Mazda presentation a little while back where Mazda suggested that a mean well-to-wheel figure for an average EV would be around 126g/km. It also had a well-to-wheel figure for its Mazda 2 with SkyActiv-G at 142g/km (compared to 118g/km for the on-the-road emissions). The reason it had come up with these figures was not to rubbish EVs, but to point out that it only needed a 10% improvement in its petrol engines to match whole-life carbon costs of EVs - and was focused on that so that when it came to include electricity in its powertrains to make hybrids, they'd be as efficient as possible.


Ultimately, EVs are now more efficient than non-EVs when it comes to well-to-wheel - but it's not as big a gap as you'd imagine. Especially when a car such as this Audi needs to use CO2-intensive materials like aluminium and composites (some of which will lock carbon away for the life of the car, but are still costly to produce in electricity terms) to keep the weight of the car down.

"The rest is purchased from abroad."
No, is not.
10 years selling energy to France and other countries until 2016.

"Ships that sink on the sea aren't really relevant to motoring":
You cannot be more Biased:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-tanker-sinks-off-china-no-hope-of-survivors
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...er-disaster-what-it-means-for-the-environment
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ary-6-accident-chinese-state-tv-idUSKBN1F309G

"Manganese and nickel are mined in open cast and cobalt is strip-mined. All three require further purification through electrowinning (which uses electricity) and two require extreme heat (which uses electricity)."

Petron don't need water to be distilled? hahahaha
Mazda? Mazada is **** on automotive model and motoring.

Please still stubborn with all of this "personal and objetvice true"

You will be pleased with silence.

 

[Famine]

"The rest is purchased from abroad."
No, is not.

You can watch Spain's electricity generation mix and capacity live here: https://demanda.ree.es/visiona/peninsula/demanda/total

"Ships that sink on the sea aren't really relevant to motoring":
You cannot be more Biased:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-tanker-sinks-off-china-no-hope-of-survivors
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...er-disaster-what-it-means-for-the-environment
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ary-6-accident-chinese-state-tv-idUSKBN1F309G

You're not covering the relevance here. Unless you think oil only goes into cars, which would be pretty daft. Quite a lot of it goes into planes, buses, trains, ships and the machinery required to mine things like nickel, cobalt and manganese.

"Manganese and nickel are mined in open cast and cobalt is strip-mined. All three require further purification through electrowinning (which uses electricity) and two require extreme heat (which uses electricity)."

Petron don't need water to be distilled? hahahaha

I didn't say anything about petron - or petrol - or how it is produced.

Mazda? Mazada is **** on automotive model and motoring.

Yet it is a car manufacturer - and the only mainstream one to avoid downsizing and turbocharging in pursuit of fake NEDC emissions in favour of actually making its engines more efficient. And its figures show that EVs are around 10% better, on average, well-to-wheel, that its best petrol-only cars. As I said, it came up with the numbers not to rubbish EVs but to point out that petrol can be better before they add electrification, rather than strapping motors to a junk petrol engine and claiming 0g/km because hybrid.

I don't follow why you're disagreeing. Do you think that petrol cars or better, or that the difference is bigger?

You cannot be more Biased:

Ultimately, EVs are now more efficient than non-EVs when it comes to well-to-wheel - but it's not as big a gap as you'd imagine.

Oh yeah, so biased. No idea what I'm biased against, like...

 

[xavi7elevenWRC]

Please update your daily info about EV.

https://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-1-selling-car-norway-june-ytd/
https://insideevs.com/1-in-25-cars-sold-china-plug-in/
https://insideevs.com/plug-in-hybrids-rocket-upwards-as-diesels-slump-in-uk/
https://insideevs.com/plug-in-electric-cars-took-19-of-the-market-in-sweden/

You're not covering the relevance here. Unless you think oil only goes into cars, which would be pretty daft. Quite a lot of it goes into planes, buses, trains, ships and the machinery required to mine things like nickel, cobalt and manganese.

I didn't say anything about petron - or petrol - or how it is produced.

Yet it is a car manufacturer. And its figures show that EVs are around 10% better, on average, well-to-wheel, that its best petrol-only cars. As I said, it came up with the numbers not to rubbish EVs but to point out that petrol can be better before they add electrification, rather than strapping motors to a junk petrol engine and claiming 0g/km because hybrid.

I don't follow why you're disagreeing. Do you think that petrol cars or better, or that the difference is bigger?


Oh yeah, so biased. No idea what I'm biased against, like...

Against Silence.

 

[Famine]

Please update your daily info about EV.

https://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-1-selling-car-norway-june-ytd/
https://insideevs.com/1-in-25-cars-sold-china-plug-in/
https://insideevs.com/plug-in-hybrids-rocket-upwards-as-diesels-slump-in-uk/
https://insideevs.com/plug-in-electric-cars-took-19-of-the-market-in-sweden/

I don't follow what your request is here. You want GTPlanet to report that 4% of the Chinese new car market is now PHEV, or the effect Dieselgate has had on the market for diesels in the UK?

Against Silence.

Uh-huh.

 

[xavi7elevenWRC]

This should appear very early on (like...second post) in every thread regarding EVs, because the [not entirely daft*] narrative that suggests EVs bring with them environmental and infrastructure concerns almost invariably manifests at some point.

*It seems to me that while there's a logical foundation to the narrative, that foundation serves as a springboard for fallacies that presuppose worst-case scenarios such as the source of electricity used to power EVs and the strain on the grid caused by 4 million new EVs hitting the road in a single day without anything having been implemented to support them...like, ohmygawd.

As EVs become more and more common (they're still just a drop of water in the bucket of "ICE"), I suspect improvements will be made not only in their manufacturing processes but also in energy production required to support them. Both will be a necessity and a lack thereof will result in demand--and production as a result--being impeded.

Tell me... how many pipes has an EV?
That's not a fallacie.

 

[TexRex]

Tell me... how many pipes has an EV?
That's not a fallacie.

Euhm...what?

Unless you're anti-EV, which you don't seem to be, you've picked an enemy where there isn't one.

I'm not opposed to EVs--to the point that my next new vehicle will likely be one because I actually want one [that isn't a Tesla]...provided what I'm looking for is available when that time comes.

What I'm opposed to is the narrative that suggests EVs are harmful and that use a seed of truth as the basis for a whole crop of nonsense.

 

[kikie]

Ooooh, it is only a concept. The front end is gorgeous. The rest of the car, not so much.

 

[FoRiZon]

So essentially a road car version of Audi E-Tron VGT.

 

[xavi7elevenWRC]

I was ironic, you know how people makes affirmations today about EVs sheet....

 

[Vandelay]

That looks absolutely gorgeous.

 

[xavi7elevenWRC]

I'm not talking about the driving itself, of course it is more similar to drive an electric car. But in terms of emotions and raw feelings, I think that what they felt with horses can be translated to the driving of a combustion engined car, talking about "feeling something alive". In an electric car I haven't been able to do that.

I can tell the difference from a horse and a car I think

No more to say.

I don't follow what your request is here. You want GTPlanet to report that 4% of the Chinese new car market is now PHEV, or the effect Dieselgate has had on the market for diesels in the UK?

Uh-huh.

Talking about UK.
How are your truck drivers going?

Tesla Model 3 is Britain's top selling car: US tech firm sold record 6,879 electric vehicles in September... while petrol crisis gripped UK

 

[Famine]

Talking about UK.
How are your truck drivers going?

Tesla Model 3 is Britain's top selling car: US tech firm sold record 6,879 electric vehicles in September... while petrol crisis gripped UK

It was also top in June 2021, but not even in the top ten in July, or August, or October... and as your chart to the right shows, despite apparently recording 12,000 sales in June and September alone - half of what the Qashqai managed in nine months but in only two months - the Model 3 isn't even in the top ten YTD for 2021.

How is that possible? Easy: Tesla doesn't actually report monthly sales. It pushes figures quarterly as, for some reason, only quarterlies seem to matter to the brand. That means that the September 2021 figure is in fact almost three months of sales compared to monthlies for everyone else. I'd expect December to be a similarly strong month for the Model 3.


It's weird that you've dashed to gravedig a thread to continue an argument only you are having with spurious figures you've done no inspection on, but... go you, I guess.

 

[MatskiMonk]

How is that possible? Easy: Tesla doesn't actually report monthly sales. It pushes figures quarterly as, for some reason, only quarterlies seem to matter to the brand. That means that the September 2021 figure is in fact almost three months of sales compared to monthlies for everyone else. I'd expect December to be a similarly strong month for the Model 3.

I don't think it's just in the reporting, I think the cars sell at a steadyish rate, but are only delivered once a quarter normally, hence the registration spikes.

Given the SMMT provided the numbers above, we can see that the most Model 3's Tesla could have sold is 26,114. If we take the known figures off that, and divide by the number of months we don't have, the Model 3's sales in the UK would like something like this...

Predictable that Tesla-cultists only report on the Model 3 sales in the UK a few times a year, and keep their mouths shut the rest of time.

 

[Famine]

I don't think it's just in the reporting, I think the cars sell at a steadyish rate, but are only delivered once a quarter normally, hence the registration spikes.

Yep, that'd do it.