AUP not clear on the PS3 hack or hacking in general

[blaaah]

As title says, hacking or jail-breaking is not illegal if it allows the system to be compatible with other systems and discussion/information on how to do it is not illegal or harmful either.
Highlighting the illegal or harmful potential uses of jail-break are irrelevant as that is not part of the AUP. AUP is about specific things that are illegal.
As it stands all discussion about PS3 jail-breaking and how to do it is not against the AUP and should be freely done on GTP forums.
Being something Sony doesn't want is not part of the AUP.
But i do remember GTP taking down spoiler videos before GT5 release, even though that i don't think is mentioned in the AUP. It was removed because Sony asked GTP to remove it.
AUP does allow for anything to not be discussed if staff request it, but that request would need to be made on individual cases after the post is made or advised against very clearly to any potential poster in many places in the forum. But then what would be the point when it could just be in the AUP which is there for all to see.

This post is about the AUP.
Resolution only involves a sentence change within the AUP or for the moderation to change. Resulting to be in the interests of Sony (probable as GTP follows Sony requests ), or the AUP stays as it is but Jail-breaking must be allowed to be discussed and how to do it.

 

[Dravonic]

I do agree that the AUP by itself does not prohibit the PS3 hacking discussion since hacking by itself is not illegal.

Also, as you mentioned, the AUP has a "fail-safe" clause which doesn't work perfectly. But do we really have to take it by the letter? What it's trying to achieve is keeping out of the forum any kind of discussion the staff doesn't deem appropriate. While it doesn't achieve this goal in a definitive way, it gets the message across and any reasonable person will get it and move on.

There are many forums where this can be openly discussed and where this discussion will flourish. While it's unfortunate this forum isn't one of them, I understand the staff's decision to keep this discussion out. It's hard enough to moderate this forum without allowing people to discuss something that invites, willingly or not, the discussion of a prohibited subject.

It's unfortunate the staff doesn't want to take that extra step to keep this forum as open as possible to any healthy discussions, but well, I understand.

 

[Famine]

A quick clarifier - we have nothing to do with Sony besides playing a game they publish on a console they make. They do not help write the AUP.

Moving on:

As title says, hacking or jail-breaking is not illegal if it allows the system to be compatible with other systems and discussion/information on how to do it is not illegal or harmful either.
Highlighting the illegal or harmful potential uses of jail-break are irrelevant as that is not part of the AUP. AUP is about specific things that are illegal.
As it stands all discussion about PS3 jail-breaking and how to do it is not against the AUP and should be freely done on GTP forums.
...
This post is about the AUP.
Resolution only involves a sentence change within the AUP or for the moderation to change. Resulting to be in the interests of Sony (probable as GTP follows Sony requests ), or the AUP stays as it is but Jail-breaking must be allowed to be discussed and how to do it.

You will not use these forums for the purposes of sharing or distributing viruses, licenses, registration information, software keys, pirated commercial multimedia files, “cracks”, or other information designed to do harm to or allow unlawful access to any computer software or systems.

You can talk about cracked games and PS3s all you like. You cannot talk about how to do it because the AUP explicitly forbids sharing or distributing this information.

 

[blaaah]

AUP explicitly says you can not show how to do it if it is designed to be harmful or is illegal, a guide to hack the ps3 to allow it to run any software is not illegal or specifically causes harm.
So the AUP says you can discuss how to do it.
That's why i made the thread.

 

[Robin]

Well so far this thread has all been 'above board'. If GTPlanet has a GT3 hybrid section then this is no different to discussing that.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=155567

Also on a side note could a mod please add a PS3 tag to that thread because its leading to multiple new threads because no one can find it. The title could also possibly do with a change to keep it all in one thread.

Robin.

 

[Dravonic]

You can talk about cracked games and PS3s all you like. You cannot talk about how to do it because the AUP explicitly forbids sharing or distributing this information.

Well that's the problem though, the whole "hacking is legal" comes from hacking not necessarily being designed to allow unlawful access to computer software. It can be argued that it does that too, that it's a byproduct of hacking, but it's not what it's designed for. Therefore the AUP doesn't explicitly forbids it.

But again, I understand what the AUP is trying to achieve and it can easily do so with slightly different wording. Also, I'm not in a crusade to allow such discussion here, I just agree with blaaah that the AUP needs some help to cover this issue.

 

[Famine]

AUP explicitly says you can not show how to do it if it is designed to be harmful or is illegal, a guide to hack the ps3 to allow it to run any software is not illegal or specifically causes harm.
So the AUP says you can discuss how to do it.
That's why i made the thread.

Well that's the problem though, the whole "hacking is legal" comes from hacking not necessarily being designed to allow unlawful access to computer software.

You're misreading.

Let's separate it into two:

You will not use these forums for the purposes of sharing or distributing viruses, licenses, registration information, software keys, pirated commercial multimedia files, “cracks”

This doesn't say that you may use the forums for the purposes of sharing or distributing viruses, licenses, registration information, software keys, pirated commercial multimedia files and “cracks” if they aren't illegal or harmful. It says you may not use these forums for the purposes of sharing or distributing viruses, licenses, registration information, software keys, pirated commercial multimedia files and “cracks” at all.

The second part is just a legal modifier that adds a contingency for anything we haven't thought of, or covered with specific terminology. They key word is "or":

or other information designed to do harm to or allow unlawful access to any computer software or systems.

So you may not use these forums for the purposes of sharing or distributing viruses, licenses, registration information, software keys, pirated commercial multimedia files and “cracks”. You may talk about them, but you may not share or distribute them - that is, in this case, discussing how people are hacking their PS3s.

 

[TB]

With all the sites/forums on the net that allow full discussion of the topic at hand, what's the big issue with this one not being one of them?

While the supposed intention of hacking the PS3 might not be for nefarious means, the fact of the matter is that's where the discussion will head.

 

[Dravonic]

You're misreading.

Let's separate it into two:



This doesn't say that you may use the forums for the purposes of sharing or distributing viruses, licenses, registration information, software keys, pirated commercial multimedia files and “cracks” if they aren't illegal or harmful. It says you may not use these forums for the purposes of sharing or distributing viruses, licenses, registration information, software keys, pirated commercial multimedia files and “cracks” at all.

The second part is just a legal modifier that adds a contingency for anything we haven't thought of, or covered with specific terminology. They key word is "or":



So you may not use these forums for the purposes of sharing or distributing viruses, licenses, registration information, software keys, pirated commercial multimedia files and “cracks”. You may talk about them, but you may not share or distribute them - that is, in this case, discussing how people are hacking their PS3s.

I disagree because of the highlighted word:

You will not use these forums for the purposes of sharing or distributing viruses, licenses, registration information, software keys, pirated commercial multimedia files, “cracks” or other information designed to do harm to or allow unlawful access to any computer software or systems.

When you say "other" you're including all of the prior (software keys, pirated commercial multimedia files, “cracks”, etc...) into the "information designed to do harm to or allow unlawful access to any computer software or systems" category.

 

[Famine]

When you say "other" you're including all of the prior (software keys, pirated commercial multimedia files, “cracks”, etc...) into the "information designed to do harm to or allow unlawful access to any computer software or systems" category.

Not at all. "Other" in this instance is a modifier for the following word. "Other information" - information we've not thought of, got terminology for or forgotten about.

Things that are not permitted to be shared or distributed on this site:

• Viruses
• Licenses
• Registration information
• Software keys
• Pirated commerical multimedia files
• Cracks
• Other information designed to do harm to or allow unlawful access to any computer software or systems

I doubt you'd argue that it's fine to share and distribute pirated films and music, because films and music aren't designed to do harm or allow unlawful access to any computer software or systems, would you?

 

[blaaah]

This issue is nothing to do with this site not allowing it, i have no desire to discuss it or see how to do it. But I do like to see clear rules. This thread is about the rules not being clear.
Now I can see how clearly it confuses other people when they think even this thread is about supporting the freedom of information to hack , when it clearly isn't. Even when i said in my first post this is about the AUP. Only abut the AUP. It's not debating about whether the site allows something is good or bad or why.

While the supposed intention of hacking the PS3 might not be for nefarious means, the fact of the matter is that's where the discussion will head.

This is not in the AUP so you are not meant to take action because it might or is about to head in a certain direction.

Not at all. "Other" in this instance is a modifier for the following word. "Other information" - information we've not thought of, got terminology for or forgotten about.

Things that are not permitted to be shared or distributed on this site:

• Viruses
• Licenses
• Registration information
• Software keys
• Pirated commerical multimedia files
• Cracks
• Other information designed to do harm to or allow unlawful access to any computer software or systems

I doubt you'd argue that it's fine to share and distribute pirated films and music, because films and music aren't designed to do harm or allow unlawful access to any computer software or systems, would you?

That change to a list now makes it clear, it was not clear before.
You wouldn't argue for something being fine that is illegal (pirate films/music), which is covered clearly in the AUP already.

 

[Dravonic]

Not at all. "Other" in this instance is a modifier for the following word. "Other information" - information we've not thought of, got terminology for or forgotten about.

Things that are not permitted to be shared or distributed on this site:

• Viruses
• Licenses
• Registration information
• Software keys
• Pirated commerical multimedia files
• Cracks
• Other information designed to do harm to or allow unlawful access to any computer software or systems

I doubt you'd argue that it's fine to share and distribute pirated films and music, because films and music aren't designed to do harm or allow unlawful access to any computer software or systems, would you?

Makes sense. But would you agree it's ambiguous then? My reading is still a valid reading as far as I can tell.

 

[Famine]

You wouldn't argue for something being fine that is illegal (pirate films/music), which is covered clearly in the AUP already.

In many jurisdictions, some types of shared films/music/other are in fact wholly legal - whether they have been distributed by someone other than the originator or not. Pirated material isn't necessarily always illegal but we won't allow it to be shared or distributed through this site anyway.

Makes sense. But would you agree it's ambiguous then? My reading is still a valid reading as far as I can tell.

If you read "other" to not mean "different", it'd then require omission and assumption to be valid - you'd need to assume everything before "or" is information which grants unlawful access or causes harm to software/hardware, and then omit those things that aren't (which is pretty much all of them, with the exclusion of viruses).

I can't think of a clearer way of saying it, but if you have any suggestions I'm sure Jordan would be happy to receive them 👍

 

[blaaah]

It's getting a bit technical, but as a layman i read it like how I initially described, and Dravonic thought so too. Some simpler English may be needed.

 

[Dravonic]

Honestly, the way it is now already works, you really have to push it to try to slip through the cracks. But just by removing the word "other" the sentence "information designed to do harm..." looks a lot more like part of a list of things you aren't allowed to distribute instead of being there to categorize the things you aren't allowed to distribute.

 

[reaperman]

Generally when I think of software cracking, which I believe is the AUP point we're talking about, I think of removal of security features from software to make it easier to pirate. It's true that some definitions of cracking might involve some things that we'd do to GT5, but not really that one. I would think we'd be more interested in save or data editing.

Maybe it's just too soon after release to bring this up. When something useful does happen with GT5 editing, maybe it will find a home over here as it has with earlier titles. The only thread I've seen locked on the subject was locked for reasons I disagree with (it sited illegality), but it didn't seem to be a thread that was going to turn useful anyway. I almost sent a pm about it last night, but didn't feel like risking the AUP ban.

It's a shame that some sharing (like possibly cleaned up standard car textures) might never be allowed by the AUP. I understand that part though, but I just wish some things, like fully homebrewed texture replacements or instructions for cleaning up your own copy's textures, might someday be discussed.

 

[dhandeh]

It's quite simple really. You make a thread, on hacking/piracy/whatever, and depending on what direction the thread is going it will be left open, redirected to stay away from 'illegal' suggestions or closed.

The AUP could be a 100,000 word essay and still not cover all potential situations.