Auto-Clutch + Non-linear Throttle + Bad Low Speed Tyre Model =

[kevlar_hybrid]

Well, what do you think?

Looking at the quick drivers in Fuji Gr. 2 (Race C) this week my own feeling is that it's created a driving style far removed from reality. They're top notch *gamers* and will find the quickest route from A to B, but that just exposes the flaws more in my opinion.

Here's how they'll take a corner.

1) Very Hard braking using ABS
2) As soon as turn in point reached fully off the brake, maybe a fraction of trail braking.
3) Coasting basically into apex, using understeer full lock scrub braking of front wheels if running wide.
4) Hit apex with whatever lock is applied to the wheel, snap it off in one straightening front wheels out move.
5) Flat on the throttle in one stab.

The less quick drivers simply struggle with turn in understeer and power on over steer on exit trying to drive "properly" because the low speed tyre model doesn't allow turn in AND braking together (or throttle), and the auto-clutch blipping power on and off at apex together with the non-linear throttle being off/on (binary almost above 50%) and the poor low speed tyre model means it's a lottery if you can smoothly accelerate *out* of the turn with modulating the throttle and "giving the car it's head" steering bleed off into exit line.

For me, this is where lot of the fun is in a driving game. I find it lacking in GTS.

 

[iFerrari]

With **** stock setups you have to "adapt" to drive quickly even if it means driving in a weird way, you can either like or not. I don't like driving cars that don't behave like I want that's why I gave up on sport mode. If you really don't find it enjoyable I suggest you to stop doing that mode and find something else.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

With **** stock setups you have to "adapt" to drive quickly even if it means driving in a weird way, you can either like or not. I don't like driving cars that don't behave like I want that's why I gave up on sport mode. If you really don't find it enjoyable I suggest you to stop doing that mode and find something else.

I'd like to play sport mode with cars that don't behave so badly, ideally. The match making and quality of racing online, every 30 mins at the most is some of the best I've ever come across.However, if I was a race engineer that gave my driver EITHER that throttle map OR a box that required the clutch so early in the gear's range I'd be fired. And if I was given a set of tyres that turned freezing cold and rock hard below 70km/h I'd look to a different supplier.

 

[craig1992cs]

Non linear throttle is absolutely ridiculous, especially in a game aimed at FIA / Esports. You cant inch the power on out of a corner as you said or the back end will just snap without any form of warning, the game is semi arcade at best but im addicted to the competitiveness of Sport mode so i keep on playing, even though i know im driving in an unrealistic way.
If Project CARS 2 or Asetto Corsa had a similar sport mode id never touch this game again.

Also whats with fully manual cars? if you mis shift and the car false neutrals, its impossible to dip the clutch and select the gear again you have to almost stop dead on the track and start from 1st gear.. shocking,

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

Non linear throttle is absolutely ridiculous, especially in a game aimed at FIA / Esports. You cant inch the power on out of a corner as you said or the back end will just snap without any form of warning, the game is semi arcade at best

Agreed. The reason I added all three ailments together is because any one of them would be kinda ok, you know? Linear throttle with bad slow speed physics and a clutch that keeps itself to itself would still be kinda fun, bit slippy sure, but people would be power sliding out of the off camber corners at Fuji and probably loving the driving. Any one problem I could tolerate, but all three working together like they do? Bleh.

Watch on onboard Super GT Fuji lap, through the chicane it's first gear progressive power into 2nd for the left then progressive up to the off camber right hander. In the game, it's <straighten wheel up - one stab of power - off throttle through the left - straighten up - stab of power> etc. The whole finesse and feel of balancing some carried speed and some throttle through there is TOTALLY lost. You notice it less on slower cars with less power and speed through the corners, but it's still there. It's a shame.

 

[Lord Protector]

Yep... the reason behind aplying 100% throttle in one go instead of progressively adding throttle is because you’re simply less likely to trigger the “infinite spin phase” in which you must wait until it stops and only after that you can start trying not to trigger it again, which results in massive time loss.

And of course it’s much less realistic. This makes drifting way too hard and also driving on the edge much more difficult, resulting in funny driving methods like @kevlar_hybrid described.

There was this video where Keiichi Tsuchiya (one of the best racing drivers in the world, well known as Drift King) was to drive a simple Toyota GT86, a fun, easy to drive, japanese low power car, and yet, Tsuchiya-san had tremendous problem keeping the car on track. It was sad to watch.

Apparently GTS’ tire model was updated like 2 months ago but it just increased grip, it didn’t fix the problem.

Non-linear throttle and bad clutch simulation only adds to this problem.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

Exactly. I'm not knocking the quick drivers and to be honest the racing you can watch in Kie, or Jomas or Lightning's etc YT channels is awesome, simply awesome. But a good test of a "real driving simulator" would be to compare how our top guys drive the car compared to how the IRL top guys drive the car - and they are worlds apart.

 

[Lord Protector]

Exactly. I'm not knocking the quick drivers and to be honest the racing you can watch in Kie, or Jomas or Lightning's etc YT channels is awesome, simply awesome. But a good test of a "real driving simulator" would be to compare how our top guys drive the car compared to how the IRL top guys drive the car - and they are worlds apart.

IRL drivers with zero experience with GTS would definitely fail at GT Sport that’s for sure being fast in GTS is more of a muscle memory kind of thing. Me personally, when I stop playing GTS for, say, 3 weeks, I enjoy driving my weekend car IRL, play some Assetto and stuff... then come back to GT Sport, I just spin around like mental and shake my head, thinking how the hell did they release this game with this horrible tire model.

 

[GTPorsche]

Yep... the reason behind aplying 100% throttle in one go instead of progressively adding throttle is because you’re simply less likely to trigger the “infinite spin phase” in which you must wait until it stops and only after that you can start trying not to trigger it again, which results in massive time loss.

And of course it’s much less realistic. This makes drifting way too hard and also driving on the edge much more difficult, resulting in funny driving methods like @kevlar_hybrid described.

There was this video where Keiichi Tsuchiya (one of the best racing drivers in the world, well known as Drift King) was to drive a simple Toyota GT86, a fun, easy to drive, japanese low power car, and yet, Tsuchiya-san had tremendous problem keeping the car on track. It was sad to watch.

Apparently GTS’ tire model was updated like 2 months ago but it just increased grip, it didn’t fix the problem.

Non-linear throttle and bad clutch simulation only adds to this problem.

And the tire model only improved lateral grip, which has no effect on acceleration, only cornering.

 

[Groundfish]

Well, what do you think?

Looking at the quick drivers in Fuji Gr. 2 (Race C) this week my own feeling is that it's created a driving style far removed from reality. They're top notch *gamers* and will find the quickest route from A to B, but that just exposes the flaws more in my opinion.

Here's how they'll take a corner.

1) Very Hard braking using ABS
2) As soon as turn in point reached fully off the brake, maybe a fraction of trail braking.
3) Coasting basically into apex, using understeer full lock scrub braking of front wheels if running wide.
4) Hit apex with whatever lock is applied to the wheel, snap it off in one straightening front wheels out move.
5) Flat on the throttle in one stab.

The less quick drivers simply struggle with turn in understeer and power on over steer on exit trying to drive "properly" because the low speed tyre model doesn't allow turn in AND braking together (or throttle), and the auto-clutch blipping power on and off at apex together with the non-linear throttle being off/on (binary almost above 50%) and the poor low speed tyre model means it's a lottery if you can smoothly accelerate *out* of the turn with modulating the throttle and "giving the car it's head" steering bleed off into exit line.

For me, this is where lot of the fun is in a driving game. I find it lacking in GTS.

Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 dollars.

 

[Haitauer]

Cant say i enjoy gr2 fuji with current setup. Cars with that much downforce really shouldnt understeer like that on turn-in. I think there really should be used softer tyre in current gr2 weekly race. We would get better turn in, better line through corner and more natural acceleration to struggle with the non-linear throttle. With current throttle control and low speed tire behavior its pretty impossible to accelerate with controlled slip as i naturally would..

I really start to think they are purposefully ruining the throttle control for the wheel users to give handicap for pad users.. It should be a 5min of coding to fix that throttle, so i think they could easily fix it if they wanted.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

"With current throttle control and low speed tire behavior its pretty impossible to accelerate with controlled slip as i naturally would..

This.

 

[Donnced]

I just erased GT Sport from my 500Gb PS4 for problems mentioned here...

Like @Haitauer said... Something changed with the throttle or the controller changes they implemented with the update that changed the Tyre model and brought the Mercedes from Lewis Hamilton... It was until then easy to be competitive and fast as wheel users.

On my T150 Pro, the game is way easier than on the controller .. But the FFB is really bad compared to other games, the non linear throttle input and basic on/off clutch only makes the experience more "frustrating"..

There are real big issues in the Tyre model... Exesive wheelspin... No "warning" that you exceed lateral grip... In low speed.. The tyres spin even in some cars at less than 70kmh and not even at full throttle...

All that, together with the sport races that aren't no more "dailys", the issues in the normal online that still aren't fixed after a year maked me take the decision...

Wich driving games can stay on my PS4 and offers me good ffb, private online leagues,good physics and Tyre model... Well this honors goes to Assetto and Pcars 2..

Now I have 100gb free room on my HDD also for the Rockstar Red Dead Redemption 2 that will come at end of October . .

Hopefully PD start to listen to the community opening a dedicated forum like lots of other games do...I always has been a GT fan, but I really think that GT Sport will be the last game of them that I have buyed...
Lot of things will have to change and be improved to reconsider a next GT

Graphics, HDR and impressive car modiling isn't the most important thing for a racing game.. At least in my opinion.

 

[cjr3559]

I just erased GT Sport from my 500Gb PS4 for problems mentioned here...

Like @Haitauer said... Something changed with the throttle or the controller changes they implemented with the update that changed the Tyre model and brought the Mercedes from Lewis Hamilton... It was until then easy to be competitive and fast as wheel users.

On my T150 Pro, the game is way easier than on the controller .. But the FFB is really bad compared to other games, the non linear throttle input and basic on/off clutch only makes the experience more "frustrating"..

There are real big issues in the Tyre model... Exesive wheelspin... No "warning" that you exceed lateral grip... In low speed.. The tyres spin even in some cars at less than 70kmh and not even at full throttle...

All that, together with the sport races that aren't no more "dailys", the issues in the normal online that still aren't fixed after a year maked me take the decision...

Wich driving games can stay on my PS4 and offers me good ffb, private online leagues,good physics and Tyre model... Well this honors goes to Assetto and Pcars 2..

Now I have 100gb free room on my HDD also for the Rockstar Red Dead Redemption 2 that will come at end of October . .

Hopefully PD start to listen to the community opening a dedicated forum like lots of other games do...I always has been a GT fan, but I really think that GT Sport will be the last game of them that I have buyed...
Lot of things will have to change and be improved to reconsider a next GT

Graphics, HDR and impressive car modiling isn't the most important thing for a racing game.. At least in my opinion.

Bold move on deleting the game, I contemplated doing the same when I had the Slim (even with an external drive), but with the Pro there’s no need. I can’t imagine how long reinstalling it would take if I ever had the urge to play this game regularly again. Instead it just sits there like a thousand pound brick on my hard drive.

 

[DJShadesUK]

I can’t imagine how long reinstalling it would take

I had to do that a few update ago when the main menu freezing on startup bug was still around. All told, it took about 4-5 hours. Downloading didn't take all that long (I have a 100mb/s fibre line), it was the "copying" phase that lasted ages. I'm sure when it says "copying" what it really means is unencrypting and uncompressing the update package (nothing else that updates ever does the "copying" phase, as soon as its downloaded its installed and good to go). There were more than a few anxious moments as the progress percentage stalled for 30-odd minutes at a time! (and thats installing to the 1tb internal drive).

 

[Sander 001]

The slower you go, the more unrealistic the physics model becomes. PC2 does it much better.

I’ve said this many times, GT Sport’s gravity is much too weak.

 

[azrilnazli]

I made a video to help my local friends buying GTsport and DDW setup with simulation in mind.

I show them the cockpit mode, the track marshalls waving flags as IRL and the sound. And showing them how I struggle to control porsche 997 2008 on the ring. I talk in local language

 

[Donnced]

Bold move on deleting the game, I contemplated doing the same when I had the Slim (even with an external drive), but with the Pro there’s no need. I can’t imagine how long reinstalling it would take if I ever had the urge to play this game regularly again. Instead it just sits there like a thousand pound brick on my hard drive.

I thought the same a while, but when I came aware that red dead Redemption 2 will occupy 105Gb at launch...
And that I was using now more Assetto and Pcars2 instead of GTS... I opted finally to erase GTS from my PS4 HDD...

I have also 100mb fiber internet network, so in standby mode I'm sure it wouldn't take a long time to reinstall GTS.. But a lot has to be changed to reconsider the reinstall.

Let's see if PD fix the Tyre model,improve FFB, brings back daily races in sport mode, add linear throttle, improve clutch, damage system, colision physics, fix the issues on personlised lobbies...

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

I made a video to help my local friends buying GTsport and DDW setup with simulation in mind.

I show them the cockpit mode, the track marshalls waving flags as IRL and the sound. And showing them how I struggle to control porsche 997 2008 on the ring. I talk in local language

And this relates to the thread topic in what way? Or did I title the thread:
"How do I fit a 3 hour and 40 Minute black screen with just a spinning car in the bottom right into a simple video for youtube so that it can be 5 hours and 30 minutes long in order to spam a random thread on GTPlanet"?

I thought the same a while, but when I came aware that red dead Redemption 2 will occupy 105Gb at launch...
And that I was using now more Assetto and Pcars2 instead of GTS... I opted finally to erase GTS from my PS4 HDD...

I have also 100mb fiber internet network, so in standby mode I'm sure it wouldn't take a long time to reinstall GTS.. But a lot has to be changed to reconsider the reinstall.

Let's see if PD fix the Tyre model,improve FFB, brings back daily races in sport mode, add linear throttle, improve clutch, damage system, colision physics, fix the issues on personlised lobbies...

Collision physics in terms of energy absorption, oh yes please. Even the most primitive form of energy loss as a percentage of initial would be a million times better buuuuuuuut, no, again, making you wonder why? They like the Newtons Cradle T1 chaos perhaps?

 

[Haitauer]

Collision physics in terms of energy absorption, oh yes please. Even the most primitive form of energy loss as a percentage of initial would be a million times better buuuuuuuut, no, again, making you wonder why? They like the Newtons Cradle T1 chaos perhaps?

.. or they like to use the limited power resources of ps4 to something else.

 

[azrilnazli]

Collision physics in terms of energy absorption, oh yes please. Even the most primitive form of energy loss as a percentage of initial would be a million times better buuuuuuuut, no, again, making you wonder why? They like the Newtons Cradle T1 chaos perhaps?

Not related actually , but ...the thing that I want to relate is, GT is a sim even with flawed clutch and infinite wheel spin.

Sorry for derailing the topics, just ignore my post. Cheers

 

[Groundfish]

To expand on my earlier post I think that it’s a very touchy subject. I own several driving games and have played all of them.
All games have good aspects. But games where the camera itself from cockpit view has problems are harder to play. Some tracks in some games are unplayable for me. Some games feeling the limit in force feedback is very challenging and unpredictable. Some games have good ai. Good graphics to me is important for my personal sense of immersion, but for me it’s not a game stopper if I am racing cartoon cars. If the drivings good, I will play because I enjoy driving.
For me, I don’t want many features of some games. For me the fun is in the driving. Taking hours tweaking settings is annoying. It’s more so when it still needs tweaking to be what I would call playable and still is obviously deeply flawed compared to reality
Bad ai is a nuisance.
I am gonna be honest here and say pretty much everything I have read online regarding what gamers refer to as physics is inaccurate and slanted towards their pet game. Ffb same thing.
All the games have their strengths, especially for us lucky enough to have the luxury of wheel use.
Games where the area directly around the track looks bad look bad. Some games have better looking actual track which I really like. Games where what the car does in cockpit view is not matching the ffb you feel are annoying.
Driving technique that’s solid is solid. All games reward proper driving technique, some more so.
Games where half of being good is spending recreation time setting up cars are what they are. For tracks I like I will do it but it’s basically a nuisance to me personally. I am sure many quite enjoy this, it’s just not what I want to spend recreation time doing personally.
Pet peeves:
Having to play with brake settings so a millimeter of pedal travel doesn’t cause lockup
Too much wheelspin on standing start
Garbage camera effects that need to all be turned off to get a more real perspective and not induce nausea by their inaccuracy
Poor lighting
Seizure inducing lighting
Default ffb so strong you can barely turn the wheel, much less drive a lap
Overdone cold tire effects it’s a time waste
Poor ai
Poor sound
Over cooked car shake for bumps body roll that’s not coordinated with driver input
The physics engine that gives up after a certain point and spinning you regardless of any input
Ffb effects that are there for no help in controlling car
Cockpit views that don’t allow mirror use
Cars without cockpit view
Gt4 cars with way too much body roll-just set it up decent don’t make me do it same for all cars
People who cry about driving game problems lol
Poor replays
Games without players online unless you wait
Too many canned ffb effects when no matter what you do it’s tough to feel the cars weight and balance and what the tires are doing
Bad cockpit views
Inability to eliminate driver names above cars
Game bugs in general come on developers fix things in your game
Helmet cam which looks at apex
Allowing way too much throttle input in race cars when cornering near limit traction circle anyone

Etc

Good things I like:
challenging and realistic physics
Level playing fields and car setup
Plug and play
Players available for online races without excessive waiting
Realistic physics
Great graphics
Ffb that gives you the information you need to feel what the cars is doing as a result of your inputs
physics engine that allows saves after mistakes not just deciding to not work at all when car is a little unstable
Driver safety ratings
Great replays
Great music
Being able to record top drivers
Great lighting and night driving
Original tracks
Penalty systems
Controller playability
default car setups that can be driven five seconds a lap faster than my best time because I know for a fact it’s not the car
Games that reward work put in to drive better
Tire flex
Ffb which tells when you are on limit in fast sweepers
Driving with thethrottle
Etc


In closing, all driving games have what some people like and what some don’t like. Please just spare me the judgements about what’s better. They are all fun in certain ways for certain track and car combos etc.
I will leave the readers of my post to guess which game I prefer.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

Not related actually , but ...the thing that I want to relate is, GT is a sim even with flawed clutch and infinite wheel spin.

Sorry for derailing the topics, just ignore my post. Cheers

I think it's a matter of opinion and semantics. It's a great game, but so is Wipeout, and GTS felt a lot like Wipeout at Fuji Gr 2 this week.

 

[azrilnazli]

I think it's a matter of opinion and semantics. It's a great game, but so is Wipeout, and GTS felt a lot like Wipeout at Fuji Gr 2 this week.

I didnt touch A and C, only B with SR S guys. Usually I will heel and toe with proper speed, not smashing down the shifter like most gamers ( gearbox protection ), and its quite rewarding

 

[ARTAsean]

I didnt touch A and C, only B with SR S guys. Usually I will heel and toe with proper speed, not smashing down the shifter like most gamers ( gearbox protection ), and its quite rewarding

Downshifting with the paddles is considerably faster. It might feel rewarding but you're leaving time all over the track..

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

I didnt touch A and C, only B with SR S guys. Usually I will heel and toe with proper speed, not smashing down the shifter like most gamers ( gearbox protection ), and its quite rewarding

You're having your own little conversation with yourself here, though.

I'm saying:
"Look at how the fast guys have ended up driving. It does not mirror real driving. These THREE things specifically are significant contributing factors to that and I would like to see them addressed."

You're saying:
"I like my DD rig and I drive it in a way that suits me, I enjoy doing this."

Downshifting with the paddles is considerably faster. It might feel rewarding but you're leaving time all over the track..

Indeed. 'Smashing the gears' with paddles is faster too, because there *is* no gearbox to protect and the gearbox model will give you more braking performance if you go as fast as you can from 6th to 2nd rather than doing it 'properly'. Similarly, grabbing one extra gear down will give you more turn in, which is why you'll see the fast guys doing all of these things in races.

 

[GTWelsh]

Collision physics in terms of energy absorption,

They have actually improved this, it was mentioned in a patch note (can't remember which) small impacts used to be way over the top and send the other car flying (caused by latency, which caused over exaggerated impact forces).

 

[simsimsheree]

The thing that really grinds my gears is PD's stubborn refusal to address the one issue that is mind-numbingly simple to fix...

Non-linear throttle response. It is a simple CV to parameter lookup table change, and global, not car specific.

This is ten minutes of a coders time. Ten minutes that would address one of the major, close to game-breaking issues of the game. Yes a brand new low speed tire model is going to take time and resources that PD may not want to spare. But a redo of the lookup table between pedal input and in game pedal position is Coding 101.

 

[ARTAsean]

The thing that really grinds my gears is PD's stubborn refusal to address the one issue that is mind-numbingly simple to fix...

Non-linear throttle response. It is a simple CV to parameter lookup table change, and global, not car specific.

This is ten minutes of a coders time. Ten minutes that would address one of the major, close to game-breaking issues of the game. Yes a brand new low speed tire model is going to take time and resources that PD may not want to spare. But a redo of the lookup table between pedal input and in game pedal position is Coding 101.

Do you really think PD doesn't have the technical knowledge to make a linear throttle? Or is this an attempt at a humble brag? Or is this a pick on PD thread.

In any case, the throttle was linear in the Beta. They specifically made it non linear in the full release. Why? Only they know. But it was deliberate. In my opinion, to narrow the gap between wheel and controller. A non linear throttle is a big detriment to throttle control, which happens to be the biggest advantage a wheel has.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

It's an easy fix, and they know how to do it. They are deliberately choosing not to. Who knows why.

I was watching a great live streamer last night. Racing S-S, chase view, twitchy, jerky controller inputs, nothing like the game I play with wheel and cockpit view etc. It was like a totally different game, wipeout in essence. But he was racing online, with people who play the game as I do. I could hardly believe it. But of course, the game HAS to cater to both markets. I would argue that anything that caters so heavily to the controller market is not a sim, and the physics cannot be sim based ones.