Autoblog article on T10's Sounds

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Very nice vid.

You know, PD has been working with Gran Turismo since the mid 90's. If they wanted to do this, they would already done it.

As far as I remember, they used to record only from the engine bay and then they just recreate the exhaust note digitally.

My bet is also that PD hasn't recorded from a car since GT4's days other than with the LFA maybe and other few cars.
 
Impressive stuff. PD has a lot to learn from Turn 10 regarding engine sounds.

HuskyGT
As far as I remember, they used to record only from the engine bay and then they just recreate the exhaust note digitally.
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Really? Because I'm uncertain about that.



:O
 
There's very little info in the video at all, nothing that your average sound engineer wouldn't be well aware of, so I'm sure it's of little use to PD.

And PD do record the exhaust notes, if you hadn't noticed, it's the "engine" notes that are lacking, and it's them that cause the oh-so-funny comparisons to vacuum cleaners. The exhausts of stock cars tends to be OK (except where PD inexplicably used the wrong samples).

What's really interesting is that T10 could learn a lot from GT5's sound, too, and only then perhaps would they really be unassailable. As it stands, PD need only sort their samples out and they're miles ahead themselves.
 
Well, I do remember an interview in a car magazine with Kazunori before GT4 was released(I think it was Motor Trend. Not really sure) where he said they just arrived from Germany from a recording session of a Rolls Royce Phantom. Right below that, there was a picture of them recording an Aston Martin Vanquish with a couple of mics stuck inside the engine bay. I couldn't see any other mics around the car.

If you think of it, prior GT5, sounds were very weak and lacked that throaty sound that you get from the exhaust, which gives credibility to this theory.

But I don't know. Maybe they've done it differently with GT5. One thing's for sure, if they use the same method than Turn10, then something is not right with PD's sound editing team.
 
yeah- I'm certain that all the specific sounds are being recorded, at least for some cars. It's just the layering and volume of each different note is where they are falling on their faces.

It's just really frustrating, you know? I'm sure everyone in that studio loves cars. Hell they even have a whole commercial touting that fact, lol! Shouldn't someone raise their hand and say,

"that doesnt sound like a car..."

?
 
PD has all the engine sounds already. Are you guys playing the game? You can listen to the start engine sound on every car in the game. And what about the sounds that are already in the intro (the part with the SLS and the SLR and then comes the Audi R10) and in the promotional videos as the Toyota GT86 and the new Acura NSX.

They have it already but don´t know why then in the game we have a digital sound that at low revs (mostly under 4000rev regimen) sounds pretty similar to the real ones but at high revs it is a mess.

I believe PD is going to use realistic engines sounds / revs in GT6 because the digital "vacuum cleaner" sound has no place in the series in a "REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR".

The sound has to match the overall quality of the car graphics and realism in my opinion.

And i am talking as a fan of the series.
 
HuskyGT
Well, I do remember an interview in a car magazine with Kazunori before GT4 was released(I think it was Motor Trend. Not really sure) where he said they just arrived from Germany from a recording session of a Rolls Royce Phantom. Right below that, there was a picture of them recording an Aston Martin Vanquish with a couple of mics stuck inside the engine bay. I couldn't see any other mics around the car.

If you think of it, prior GT5, sounds were very weak and lacked that throaty sound that you get from the exhaust, which gives credibility to this theory.

But I don't know. Maybe they've done it differently with GT5. One thing's for sure, if they use the same method than Turn10, then something is not right with PD's sound editing team.
Click to expand...

I've seen videos of them shoving mics up exhaust pipes before GT4 was released, and I know of that article you mentioned. They even used dynos for some cars, but ideally they'd have done it for all of them.

The exhaust is almost always present and prominent, and usually fine for unmodified cars in GT5. What is missing is intake, and this makes a massive contribution to interior sounds of stock cars, and an even bigger contribution when "modified". This is why GT's engine sounds are so lack-lustre (ignoring the daft mis-attribution of samples when you start changing things).

Go here, and peruse the miscellaneous recordings under "cars" to see what I mean. Pay particular attention to "under-hood" recordings, and compare to interior and drive-bys.


Interestingly, if you listen to Forza 4's sounds, you can hear the part that contributes the most to the guttural, in your face-ness of it is, in fact, the intake (albeit somewhat distorted).
 
Griffith500
I've seen videos of them shoving mics up exhaust pipes before GT4 was released, and I know of that article you mentioned. They even used dynos for some cars, but ideally they'd have done it for all of them.

The exhaust is almost always present and prominent, and usually fine for unmodified cars in GT5. What is missing is intake, and this makes a massive contribution to interior sounds of stock cars, and an even bigger contribution when "modified". This is why GT's engine sounds are so lack-lustre (ignoring the daft mis-attribution of samples when you start changing things).

Go here, and peruse the miscellaneous recordings under "cars" to see what I mean. Pay particular attention to "under-hood" recordings, and compare to interior and drive-bys.


Interestingly, if you listen to Forza 4's sounds, you can hear the part that contributes the most to the guttural, in your face-ness of it is, in fact, the intake (albeit somewhat distorted).
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Yeah, it's true what you say. So in this case it's basically the way they "digitalize" the sounds for the game. I don't want to bring the Forza thing, but what is Turn10 doing that PD needs to do? (comparing with FM3 which in my opinion it sounded much better than FM4)

PD not also fails in most cases when they give a totally wrong sound sample to some models, but they also fail when you change the exhaust (which I rather not do because of this). I mean, PD is not bad at all if we compare to past games. GT5 is way further beyond and improved vs GT4 when it comes to sound. They even went to the hassle of looking for a correct sound samples for some cars that people wouldn't even use like most of the V8 Mercedes lineup which sucked in previous games, or the Zonda C12S that now it sounds pretty much like the real thing.

Foxiol
PD has all the engine sounds already. Are you guys playing the game? You can listen to the start engine sound on every car in the game. And what about the sounds that are already in the intro (the part with the SLS and the SLR and then comes the Audi R10) and in the promotional videos as the Toyota GT86 and the new Acura NSX.

They have it already but don´t know why then in the game we have a digital sound that at low revs (mostly under 4000rev regimen) sounds pretty similar to the real ones but at high revs it is a mess.

I believe PD is going to use realistic engines sounds / revs in GT6 because the digital "vacuum cleaner" sound has no place in the series in a "REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR".

The sound has to match the overall quality of the car graphics and realism in my opinion.

And i am talking as a fan of the series.
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This is a very important point here. I've been noticing this since GT3. Most cars with the correct sound sample sound extremely realistic at low revs but then everything gets messed up. Remember the LFA prior the update that fixed the sound? At low revs it sounded identical to the real car, but as you went higher, the sound was so terrible that it even made PD notice it and fix it. Listen to the Veyron at low revs until you reach about 2000 rpms or start it. That thing sounds exactly like the real thing, but above 2000 rpms they pasted the BMW M5's sample for some reason.

I mean really... In other cases they even failed completely with the sample. Like with their own car the GT by Citroen. That thing is suppose to have a huge V8, and there is even a video of a test mule sounding like it has a massive oldschool crate V8 under the hood, and yet they decide to use the M5's V10 sample with it. Not even changing the exhaust will make it sound like a V8.

The Lamborghini Murcielago and Aventador are another good example. Both have a higher pitched version of the Gallardo's V10. If they went through the hassle of improving the Zonda C12s which is a standard and old car, to make it have probably one of the best and most unique V12 engine sound in the game, why didn't they do it with the two major Lambos? And the Enzo? Why does it have the same sample than the 458? The McLaren F1 shares the sample with the Cizeta which is a V16 (and probably the most exact samples in the game since GT4). And there are others...

I'm not ranting, by the way. I just wonder what PD does wrong and why. I know that the game is massive so I give them a lot credit for how well the end product always results.
 
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Agreed with many of the comments. PD only needs to get their samples correct!

The Enzo should NOT sound like a 458, and a Murciélago should NOT sound like a Gallardo :dunce:

The most accurate sound in GT5, in my opinion, would be the Corvette C6 Z06:



Now if all the prominent cars in GT5 sounded like that! There are some cars which I do want to use more often, but I'm just put off because of how terrible they sound :(

V12 cars in particular badly need more love! Among all of them in GT5, only the standard Zonda's, DB9, Storm V12, and the Miura actually sound like V12's.

The Vantage (which btw shares a lot of the samples with the W12 Nardo and Ferrari 599) sounds awesome at low revs, but going higher brings the much dreaded vacuum cleaner sound. The XJR-9 hasn't changed at all from the standard one, and the Aventador still uses the Murc sound :banghead:

PD have nailed the graphics and modelling of the car, now they just need to realize how important the engine sounds are. They have the foundation almost spot-on, but the majority of samples are not flattering at all :irked:

EDIT: PD could hire this guy for engine sounds! :dopey:
 
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I've been wondering...
PS3 have a really and silly amount of RAM and if the samples are trully uncompressed lets say...7.1. If they "downscaled" the sound and somehow screwed it up?

256Mb RAM for AI, physics, and everything else...
 
The tiny RAM of PS3 made PD very compromised in their work. In PS4 they will have no excuse though.
 
GTPM118
I've been wondering...
PS3 have a really and silly amount of RAM and if the samples are trully uncompressed lets say...7.1. If they "downscaled" the sound and somehow screwed it up?

256Mb RAM for AI, physics, and everything else...
Click to expand...

Sounds aren't stored in the RAM.
 
I think there are two parts in this problem:

1. The mix of engine/exhaust could be improved, as well as boosting certain frequenzies (like bass).

2. The engine sounds decreases in game as other sounds go louder (wind, tire screech, other cars etc).

Now, focusing on the second part, I think the problem is the fact that in real life the dB goes up when a sound gets louder. In GT5 it doesn't, it's mostly other sounds that decrease in volume when a certain sound gets louder. Like this:

1. Here is the recording of an engine. As the RMP increase it gets louder. (Axis 0-35 = loudness, axis 1-10 = time. All values are purely fictional)

81227427.jpg


2. As the car accelerates, the wind noise will increase as well.

89862247.jpg


3. Now, you can't have the levels going up like this in a game because you can't go higher than 100% level , or you'll get a distorted overdrive sound. This means that the different sounds would have to share the 100% level between themselves. So as one sound increase in proportion, the other sound would have to go down. In the beginning for instance, there is no wind sound, only engine. So the engine gets almost all of the 100% to play with. As the speed increases, the wind takes more and more room, and although the engine in fact gets louder and louder, its proportion of the total sound space decreases and so does its in game volume. This, I guess, adds to the sensation of driving a vaccuum cleaner.

50352360.jpg


(Of course, when there's not so much sound, not all 100% of the level range is in use but it's too complicated to make a graph of that...)

4. Now, wind and engine are only two of the sounds that's heard in a race. Here is an addition of a whole bunch of other sounds. The sounds gets louder and louder as speed increases. At time 6 to 10 the sound of another car is heard, probably an overtake.

52276707.jpg


5. Here is the same situation in game, where the sounds would have to share the same space. Notice how your own engine sound gets smaller proportion as you overtake the other car, and then it climbs up again once you've passed. This is pretty much what happens in game. You can notice this when you're crashing into a wall - instead of producing a loud crash sound it mutes all other sounds.

75626539.jpg


It's probably a lot more complicated than this, but it's a rough sketch...

Maybe dedicating a certain % of the level range to purely engine sounds could be a way to fix this. That way you would always get a good engine level and the other sounds would only compete with each other - not with the engine.
 
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HuskyGT
Yeah, it's true what you say. So in this case it's basically the way they "digitalize" the sounds for the game. I don't want to bring the Forza thing, but what is Turn10 doing that PD needs to do? (comparing with FM3 which in my opinion it sounded much better than FM4)

PD not also fails in most cases when they give a totally wrong sound sample to some models, but they also fail when you change the exhaust (which I rather not do because of this). I mean, PD is not bad at all if we compare to past games. GT5 is way further beyond and improved vs GT4 when it comes to sound. They even went to the hassle of looking for a correct sound samples for some cars that people wouldn't even use like most of the V8 Mercedes lineup which sucked in previous games, or the Zonda C12S that now it sounds pretty much like the real thing.
Click to expand...

I think PD know what they need to do, and that might mean re-recording all the cars on a dyno, and making sure they capture all of the sounds the car makes, not just the exhaust and the tappets. Unless they go the full synthesis route, which is more than doable, if they put the time in (which they may have done; or not).
HuskyGT
This is a very important point here. I've been noticing this since GT3. Most cars with the correct sound sample sound extremely realistic at low revs but then everything gets messed up. Remember the LFA prior the update that fixed the sound? At low revs it sounded identical to the real car, but as you went higher, the sound was so terrible that it even made PD notice it and fix it. Listen to the Veyron at low revs until you reach about 2000 rpms or start it. That thing sounds exactly like the real thing, but above 2000 rpms they pasted the BMW M5's sample for some reason.

I mean really... In other cases they even failed completely with the sample.
...
I'm not ranting, by the way. I just wonder what PD does wrong and why. I know that the game is massive so I give them a lot credit for how well the end product always results.
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(Excuse the edited quote) I can't rationalise the mis-use of samples, except to say that someone at PD messed up. The PS3 is highly limited on memory, as we're often reminded, so it seems as though they only use two samples in the rev range (this turns out to be four plus idle, because there are two sound sources per car: engine and exhaust). This means the samples are over-stretched (well, under-sampled, really) and so become thin at higher rpm.
They could use a technique that a lot of third party modders did for GPL, which only used a single sample, and that was to layer in different samples into the same one at different "speeds", so that each one came into prominence at the correct engine speed. Although this introduces a dirty, mild unpleasantness to the sound that isn't appropriate for all cars.
SimonK
Sounds aren't stored in the RAM.
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Yes, they are. Think of them as the audio analogue of textures.
eran0004
I think there are two parts in this problem:

1. The mix of engine/exhaust could be improved, as well as boosting certain frequenzies (like bass).

2. The engine sounds decreases in game as other sounds go louder (wind, tire screech, other cars etc).

...
Click to expand...

If you use the Large-Theatre setting, it's more like images 1, 2 and 4 (which is why you need to turn it up). The other images show massive, continual dynamic range compression, which is probably only close to what the living-room setting is doing. The small-theatre setting has a bit of headroom for normal volume relationships until things start getting a bit too loud. So, the existing, in-game dynamic range settings effectively "fix" point 2; give them a fiddle.
Point 1 is partly due to missing intake (which is bassy / lumpy by nature), so you're looking at re-recording, as I mentioned above. It's also partly because they don't use psycho-acoustic effects to give the impression of bass, so you actually need bass hardware to get those frequencies into your brain.

Nice examples, though; it's good for people to visualise these things. 👍
 
👍
After reading this... I hope PD could improve their system without taking more time than planned...

As everyone knows, sounds is part of the experience. In my opinion GT5 is more or less the same as GT3, "few"(premium) cars.

And after watching the GT video...150 people working, we do not know how they exactly grow in 5 years, MAybe some 20 more could make an improvement on how they work, (game testrs only?) and of course making a little bit faster the process of recording & modeling each car.

I believe that PD could make so much better if they talk more to the community.
Sorry for my bad english.
 
Last DLC (the other game) Mercedes 300 SEL 6.3 sounds like it had a Chevy engine and exhaust! So they aren´t perfect either
 
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SimonK
Sounds aren't stored in the RAM.
Click to expand...

:dunce:

If they weren't stored in RAM, we'd have to wait for it to load sounds every time we needed a sound, which is all the time. A tire screech needs to be there the instant it's called for and not a few moments later after loading it. Even when installed to the hard drive, it would still have to load it before use. When stored in RAM it's ready to go the instant we need it.
 
Sselecta
Impressive stuff. PD has a lot to learn from Turn 10 regarding engine sounds.


Really? Because I'm uncertain about that.



:O
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hahahahaha..... So funny because it rings true. Stop skimping on the sound
dept PD! It's actually an important element of the game's atmosphere.
 
Reminds me of how the sounds for "Baja: edge of control" were recorded, I can't seem to find any videos on YouTube, but it was pretty much the same way.
 

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