Beginner Impressions and Misconceptions

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DanishGambit
Hi all. I'm new to the forums and new to GT5 as far as driving with all the aids off. The game is more enjoyable this way as you can actually feel what the car is doing. However from a beginner's perspective there are a lot of issues in the game that make it very difficult to progress. In fact I've found myself doing seasonal events instead of actually finishing the single player - and I haven't even finished the Amateur Races. I have a list of issues that I hope would be fixed in GT6 and hopefully other members can shed light on some things.

License Tests

These are said to be the first place (second for me... :sly:) that a beginner should go in the game. Here you learn about breaking points, steering the car, the driving line, throttle control and a bunch of other things that you will need. However the first issue comes at the very beginning of test B1. This test, like most of the tests in B1, feature a standing start. Unfortunately the game neglects to mention the very simple idea of how to accelerate off of the starting line. There are some tests, such as the A3 cone slalom, in which a good start can go a long way into increasing lap times. It is easy to notice this as you see your ghost car zoom past you even though you've only been going in a straight line! Even though the majority of races in the game feature rolling starts I think this important point should have been mentioned.

Another issue I had was accelerating with high-powered cars. I have not finished all of the tests but hopefully there is a section that covers using throttle control on cars like these. All the tests use skid control force for some reason but tire spinning is a problem at low gears and this doesn't seem well covered.

A third problem is that the tests sometimes seem to require the student to perform maneuvers that are never actually taught. This comes up as early as the B5 test at Tsukuba. I took a very long time trying to figure it out thinking that my technique was bad. I finally decided to search for answers. It was then that I read people calling this test "one of the hardest in the entire game." That is NOT what a beginning player needs to hear at all. Now although this is an exaggeration it's easy to see where someone might get this idea.

Normal driving will not cut it on this test. I found that you are actually supposed to brake later than the guy in the demonstration brakes. That is just not something that a student is going to do unless he wants to end up sliding into a wall. There were even suggestions of using the handbrake which doesn't even exist to a beginner. The point is that it shouldn't require an expert technique to finish a beginner's test. And if I can't trust the instructor then who can I trust? Obi-Wan? (Don't use the skid force Luke...)

Other than these points the driving tests have been extremely useful in learning to drive. The instructions are clear and the demonstration with the instructor explaining the exercises are very helpful. It is nice to be able to sit in the car and see what you are supposed to do rather than simply follow the driving line.

HP, PP Why Me?

Simply put the idea has somewhat confused me. The issue started in A-Spec when the main problem was finding a car to compete with in races. After comparing the PP and finding a car to match I often found myself in a car that was either too fast, turning the race into a hot lap, or it was too slow turning the race into a hot lap. The issue is worse online as I have found myself slower in almost every race. And comparing these values can be deceiving. Although two cars may have the same PP one car may be significantly better than the other. So what is the defining factor? Who knows - it's never really explained in the game. One thing is for sure - cool stickers don't make a car fast - unless it's a Red Bull sticker.

So A-Spec has really been trial and error and although I don't like being significantly faster (or slower), I'm not just going to buy and sell cars over and over again until I find the right one especially if it's for one race and with a car that I may only use one time. The Lupo races don't seem so bad at all to me! This is probably the most frustrating thing about the game. This seems to be a very important factor in buying and tuning cars and it's not explained at all. I would propose that races have HP and PP restrictions to help prevent this issue. Granted it might make finding the cars a bit harder, but all of the cars would at least be in the same class. Then the winner is decided by tuning, driving skill e.t.c; Winning all the races in high-powered cars has the side effect of making up for bad habits and they do show up when the cars are evenly powered.

Tuning - Care to Elaborate?

Here is another point where the beginner gets the cold shoulder. In fact I don't think the option is even explained other than in the manual. While everything in the tuning shop has a great explanation at least, it's really not that helpful as far as knowing when these tools will actually be used or how one tune affects another part of the car. Everyone is simply not going to notice that loss of grip if the ride height goes to low and the springs rate settings are simply intimidating with the ability to tune them to one tenths of a millimeter. I would simply propose license tests in which you are supposed to tune a stock car so that it can behave in a way that allows you to take turns at a certain speed. This way the player can be guided through the controls to see how the different settings effect the car and be better able to make custom tunes for themselves.

Drifting

I don't know if this is given license tests or not but I haven't seen anything about how to drift a car on tarmac or dirt/snow. I remember them being in GT3 though and they were very good. It seems pretty easy to make some tests on the Eifel kart track or special stage 5 since they have very circular turns.

tldr;

These are the few issues I had with the game. The main problem in my view is not that the game is too hard. It's a simulator and so that's to be expected. The real issue seems to be that a lot of things get left out that beginners simply need to know. Most people that complain about the game being too hard aren't doing the license tests. And they aren't doing the license tests because even they can be too hard. The ones I've done are pretty straight forward but sometimes you are called to do something that is simply not explained and someone that is not a veteran driver is not going to just figure it out. So they skip the license tests and get into their uber high powered cars and wipe out A-spec until they get to the point where the cars are too powerful to dive recklessly. At this point a player has plateaued and probably won't figure out what's wrong. I think this is the point where many players stop playing. I think a bit more explanation of how things work would be a lot more effective than changing regulations and assists.

After getting past those things the game is a lot of fun. The time spent in doing the license tests pays off as you can actually use the things you learned in all of the races. And even though you can do ok skipping them I think that the game is better when you have done them because it's easier to learn about how the different cars will react to the corners in the game. I have only golded the B licenses so far but I think I'll try to gold them all.
 
I think your observations are spot-on. There is a difficulty curve with the Licence tests that spikes at places where it isn't expected. Tests in B and A and IC etc. that are just excruciatingly difficult in comparison to a test in the same Licence that is just too easy. Take the A licence tests 7 and 8 for example. 7 is a rally event, that I got gold with more than a second under, then 8 was at Nurburgring GP/F in a BMW Concept 1 which was at the Schumacher S - this took a lot of attempts to get gold. Each time I was struggling to knock off hundredths of a second just to get close to Gold.

This major disparity in the A licences was a pain, yes. There are many more examples but let me say Super Licences are easier than the I-A licences by far - I think I golded all the S tests after no more than 3 attempts each, yet the I-A, I-B, I-C etc required sometimes up to 50 attempts on one test.

I do certainly agree with your observations about Drifting and Tuning - there really should be more tutorials built-in about tuning and drifting. There's special events on Karting, Rallying etc. but nothing on drifting, yet there is a trophy that requires 10,000 points from Drifting. It seems silly to add something like that without any actually Drift events (outside of the Drift Trials in the seasonals).

As for the tuning, you make a good point about having a test like the licences, but I think this might be unnecessary, not everyone is concerned with tuning, it would be much simpler if they included some training in this, that was completely optional and not required to get 100% completion of the game like the licences.

And the disparities in cars within the PP system - yes that's been around since day one, nothing to be done about it. Cheat cars are found in every PP range, 400, 450, 500, 550, 600, 650, 700 etc. and this was tried to be fixed in a recent update, which failed and made things worse, so they reversed it. It's a calculation based on certain invisible and visible factors - like grip, aero, hp and weight. Tuning and tires do not affect PP, though I think they should, just my opinion.

You'll find through experimentation which cars are "cheat" cars and which are outliers - the outliers at certain PP ranges are fun to drive, but far from competitive. Then there are the ones in the middle, that get used very little and sit in your garage unused because they are not competitive. You will find that as you accumulate prize cars, that many will sit unused. There are more than 1000 unique cars (well that's debatable, I guess) in the game, so finding your favourites at certain PP levels to race online or in seasonals is part of the fun. Building a garage of cars that you race all the time is part of what can add playability. If you are concerned about tuning, this site is the best place for help in that regard, since the game is rather lacking with help. The tuning forum has all your needs, as well as a place to ask questions about a tuning problem you encounter, or just to use tunes for a car you want to drive in a race.

So welcome to :gtpflag: and enjoy your time here.
 
I agree with you 100% on the PP system. To be perfectly honest, in its current incarnation, it's just this side of 'broken', and even then just barely. I've got a roughly 680PP car that can't barely keep up with 500 PP cars. And I've heard of 530 PP cars outrunning 550 PP cars, too.
 
I agree with you 100% on the PP system. To be perfectly honest, in its current incarnation, it's just this side of 'broken', and even then just barely. I've got a roughly 680PP car that can't barely keep up with 500 PP cars. And I've heard of 530 PP cars outrunning 550 PP cars, too.

Drive the Caterham, it can struggle against cars with 100 less PP. :odd:
 
...I've heard of 530 PP cars outrunning 550 PP cars, too.
That happens all the time in the Seasonals, running a lower PP car gives you a better payout and it can be done. It's a matter of tuning the car you are driving as that makes a big difference.
 
I agree with your points, especially the tuning. It isn't very well explained, in my opinion. Like when adjusting suspension, I can't tell if a higher number means stiffer or not. I still don't. :dunce:
 
Well, that's makes a change. Someone who has problems with GT5 but can get their point across without shouting and stamping their feet. Good points, all of which put across in a very well laid out post.

Welcome to :gtpflag:.
 
Pretty much all of your points have been the case for all incarnations of the game.

Previously you had to attain the the licences to progress. Thankfully this was replaced by the points system: I was not looking forward to doing them for a fifth time, though I did a few to get the feel for the game.

You will find loads of help on this site for anything you want to know. 👍
 
....snip...These are the few issues I had with the game. The main problem in my view is not that the game is too hard. It's a simulator and so that's to be expected. The real issue seems to be that a lot of things get left out that beginners simply need to know. Most people that complain about the game being too hard aren't doing the license tests. And they aren't doing the license tests because even they can be too hard. The ones I've done are pretty straight forward but sometimes you are called to do something that is simply not explained and someone that is not a veteran driver is not going to just figure it out. So they skip the license tests and get into their uber high powered cars and wipe out A-spec until they get to the point where the cars are too powerful to dive recklessly. At this point a player has plateaued and probably won't figure out what's wrong. I think this is the point where many players stop playing. I think a bit more explanation of how things work would be a lot more effective than changing regulations and assists.

...snip..

Stick around and you'll soon figure out that the long distance communications skills of native Americans from the 1600's are better than they are at Sony/PD. Even when they do attempt to communicate, the wording is often cryptic and unlcear, scratch that, almost always cryptic and unclear. That goes for anything within the game and ongoing communication. They are their own worst enemy.

Mostly it's trial and error, and although much of the work has been done, it's not always easy to find here because it may be buried in a thread completely unrelated to the topic you are searching.

Asking questions is usually the best way to go, after you've done a pretty thorough search. Welcome aboard..👍👍
 
Pretty much all of your points have been the case for all incarnations of the game.

Previously you had to attain the the licences to progress. Thankfully this was replaced by the points system: I was not looking forward to doing them for a fifth time, though I did a few to get the feel for the game.

You will find loads of help on this site for anything you want to know. 👍

The points system has a very steep curve and the event unlock and car purchase levels don't make sense (FGT championship at level 23, FGT purchase at level 24). The licence tests are a much better system and should probably be combined with points. For example: get a National B licence, then do races and championships to earn the right to qualify for A.

It would also make more sense to buy an F1 car with a Super licence (the real world requirement to race in F1) than with a meaningless level. Licence tests can be hard, but proper career simulation would make it feel worth the effort. And, of course, they could always make some extra money the way EA would... :sly:
 
Be thankful you are joining now! I got the game when it first came out and it was all over the place!
 
Awesome replies! Some of the seasonal events have been really tough and I had problems finding cars to use. I managed the Mini 450pp well though so things are looking up! I'm not going to worry much about tuning right now until I get an international license. I have enough trouble with MR vehicles anyway. Also, is it possible to do the beginner's truck event without tuning? That event seemed pretty left field lol.
 
Hi all. I have gotten to IC-2 and there are more confusing points here.
License A4 has you driving through a chicane at Monza. I got the gold trophy but I drove through the green area to get it. Aren't you supposed to get a penalty for that?
A9 requires you to overtake agroup of cars by braking late and taking them on the inside corner. I've heard people call this "divebombing" and they don't allow it in their races. What gives?
IC-2 presents a similar issue of allowing you to cut through the yellow area on Trial Mountain. Why are there so many mixed messages here?
 
1. You would get a penalty if they were active online, that decision's never made much sense.
2. Braking late to overtake is a perfectly acceptable tactic, divebombing is doing the same thing, but aiming at a gap that only exists if the driver being overtaken surrenders or gets smashed into.
3. That section of Trial Mountain has never been considered off limits by PD or the majority of players.
 
Great post. I agree with pretty much everything you say. I'll reply to just a couple of your topics.

Tuning
The tuning in this game has a pretty steep learning curve, and as you pointed out, the in game explanations are horrible. A combination of real world tuning knowledge, along with trial and error over the last 3 years (has it been 3 years already...wow!) has lead to the GT5 community having a general understanding of how the tuning works.

There's tons of info on tuning scattered all over GTP. The tuning forums are the best place to start looking...if you're looking for drift tunes or drag tunes, check those subforums. If you don't want to go too in depth into the tuning yourself, but just want to find a way to make a car handle better, check out the thousands of tunes being shared by the many tuning garages (also found in the tuning forum).

Drifting
The "Drift Mode" in GT5 is basically an afterthought. The scoring system turns it into a gimicky sidegame that really doesn't have much to do with drifting at all, but rather how much wheelspin you can get while on the racing line.

Although "Drift Mode" is not worth much time, there is a very good drift community here on GTP. There's lots of good advice for beginners in the drift forums - if you can sift through some of the BS first :lol: If you're wanting to get online to learn how to tandem, there's always people around willing to help out beginners.


One last thing

...The issue is worse online as I have found myself slower in almost every race.....

I have no idea what kind of lobbies you have been joining, but if you are new to the game, that shouldn't be surprising. At any given PP level, or in any type of race, there will be lots of people who are lights out quick. That just comes with practice. Don't forget, this game has been out for 3 years....plus many of us have been playing GT regularly since past installments. Long time players have a huge advantage over new players on any of the tracks that were in previous games, as we already know them like the back of our hand.

Also, if you're first experience with online racing was any time over the last couple of months, there's a good chance you were in rooms where people were driving hybrids. Some of these cars could have been highly hex modded (crazy amounts of HP, extra grippy tires, grip mulitipliers, etc), giving them a distinct advantage over a new and unaware player such as yourself

Anyways, welcome to GT5 and GTP. If it makes you feel any better, most of your issues with the game fall right in line with what most of us have had concerns about since the game first came out....some of the issues have been around since GT1 :lol:

Edit:
IC-2 presents a similar issue of allowing you to cut through the yellow area on Trial Mountain. Why are there so many mixed messages here?

The "Yellow Areas" on Trial Mountain are not actually out of bounds. The scenery of Trial Mountain is very very loosely based on Japanese style mountain roads (aka Touge), where those types of road markings are very common. They mark out the "driving lane" through corners for normal traffic...but in the heat of a race, there's nothing wrong with cutting across them :)
 
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Well it looks like mostly everything has been covered, all I can say it welcome to the world of Gran Turismo. Be thankful the game is all in one piece when you're joining it unlike how it was when many of us did.... :p
 
PP seems to work decently except in the case where the car has an abnormally low weight, cars that are very light get a higher PP even if they are at a big disadvantage in other areas, the Caterham is definitely one that falls into this catagory.

Otherwise the PP isn't very accurate but it's more accurate than not having it at all, and for many cars (especially those of similar weight/class) it can be a decent way to balance things.
 
Welcome to GTPlanet!
Reading through this brought back some memories of my first time playing & made me chuckle.
 
The points system has a very steep curve and the event unlock and car purchase levels don't make sense (FGT championship at level 23, FGT purchase at level 24). The licence tests are a much better system and should probably be combined with points. For example: get a National B licence, then do races and championships to earn the right to qualify for A.

It would also make more sense to buy an F1 car with a Super licence (the real world requirement to race in F1) than with a meaningless level. Licence tests can be hard, but proper career simulation would make it feel worth the effort. And, of course, they could always make some extra money the way EA would... :sly:

Maybe, and yes some if the levels may be a bit odd but it does largely work. I don't have much playing time so the the seasonal big earners (credits and XP) made it easier to open up the game by doing races and trials rather than repeating tests I'd done many times before.

I enjoyed playing GT4, but got to a stage where I needed an expensive race car to progress but didn't have the time or will to grind for for the money. In GT5 I've got all the cars and money I need and can have some fun just drivng them, tuning them and taking a few pictures. Presumably PD added the points system and seasonal payouts to give longevity for the more casual gamer who doesn't want to get bogged down in a career mode. I know I've played the game much more than if it was like the previous GTs.
 
Awesome replies ! Also, is it possible to do the beginner's truck event without tuning? That event seemed pretty left field lol.

All you should need is a transmission to raise your top speed 👍 This 1 is fairly easy compared to some of the seasonals & A-specs you'll be attempting soon. Good luck 👍
 
Maybe, and yes some if the levels may be a bit odd but it does largely work. I don't have much playing time so the the seasonal big earners (credits and XP) made it easier to open up the game by doing races and trials rather than repeating tests I'd done many times before.

I enjoyed playing GT4, but got to a stage where I needed an expensive race car to progress but didn't have the time or will to grind for for the money. In GT5 I've got all the cars and money I need and can have some fun just drivng them, tuning them and taking a few pictures. Presumably PD added the points system and seasonal payouts to give longevity for the more casual gamer who doesn't want to get bogged down in a career mode. I know I've played the game much more than if it was like the previous GTs.

I think what I suggested would be great, but with an option to use levels and just have the option to do all events, like the current system. It would give them an incentive to make certain things more balanced.
 
Thanks all. I'm going to have to do Monza over again. But I notice that the AI avoids those yellow strips for the most part. I'm not sure why.
 
GT grandpa
Just enjoy what you have in the game, it,s fun but not perfect.

No.

As near as I can tell, that was attempting to sweep the topic under the rug. Nobody has any business doing so. Valid criticisms need to be stated and discusses, not dismisses. The series can't be expected to improve if everyone joins hands in pretending weak points aren't there. We need to be vocal about them, as a collective, because sooner or later ten million people criticizing in unison will get back to PD one way or another. The "stop complaining" folks and the "just shut up and enjoy what you've got" folks are partially responsible for the series lagging behind the competition.


DanishGambit
License Tests

These are said to be the first place (second for me... :sly:) that a beginner should go in the game. Here you learn about breaking points, steering the car, the driving line, throttle control and a bunch of other things that you will need. However the first issue comes at the very beginning of test B1. This test, like most of the tests in B1, feature a standing start. Unfortunately the game neglects to mention the very simple idea of how to accelerate off of the starting line.

HP, PP Why Me?

Simply put the idea has somewhat confused me. The issue started in A-Spec when the main problem was finding a car to compete with in races. After comparing the PP and finding a car to match I often found myself in a car that was either too fast, turning the race into a hot lap, or it was too slow turning the race into a hot lap. The issue is worse online as I have found myself slower in almost every race. And comparing these values can be deceiving. Although two cars may have the same PP one car may be significantly better than the other. So what is the defining factor? Who knows - it's never really explained in the game.

I thought I quoted a bit relating to rolling starts versus standing starts, but it doesn't look like I got it. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but I thought it was in the topic post somewhere. Just in case, I want to note that they changed the starts to most events at one point. As I recall, I believe more used to have standing starts but they were changed to mostly rolling starts. I can't swear to that though, since it's been a couple years or more now.

Regarding PP, that was never even meant to be in GT5 in the first place. It was cobbled in there some months after release and, as I recall, poorly implemented.
 
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@ IceMan PJN

The thing about competing games is that they're all on other consoles. This doesn't create enough pressure on GT because they're not knocking on its doorstep. It's also unlikely that a competing title appears on the Playstation because GT is almost directly backed by Sony itself.

It would be like a studio trying to make a direct competitor to Super Mario Bros. on Nintendo's own consoles. You might as well be fighting Nintendo itself.

The only way the situation could be improved is for GT and its competitors to end up on neutrals grounds. A console not directly affiliated with either side. Either that or you boycott GT.
 
Project CARS is due for release this year, supposedly around November, the likely release date for GT6 if it's a PS3 game. There's their pressure.
 
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