BMW hybrids "must beat diesels"

[Pebb]

Source: AutoCar

BMW will not launch a hybrid vehicle unless "it is more economical in the real world than a diesel car," a senior company engineer has told Autocar.

The comment reveals the frustration felt by many in the European auto industry that hybrid vehicles have become near-synonymous with environmental friendliness, despite often returning poorer economy than rival diesel-engined cars.

"Hybrid cars are very good for slow and stop-start driving but not so good at higher speeds. Overall, our diesel vehicles are still more economical," said the BMW source.

BMW’s first hybrid vehicle is expected to be a version of the next-generation 5-series, closely followed by an updated X5, and this information would seem to suggest that it's likely to be diesel- rather than petrol-electric. Although BMW didn’t confirm the hybrid’s identity, it did say that the first model would be launched in 2010.

BMW has joined forces with DaimlerChrysler and GM to engineer a rear-wheel drive hybrid powertrain that can be fitted to a wide range of future models.

Recently, a respected German automotive magazine revealed that over a 60,000-mile long-term test its 1.9-litre turbodiesel Skoda Octavia averaged 41.5mpg, marginally ahead of the magazine’s Toyota Prius, with added benefit of better performance and greater load space.

It’s understood that gap between the real-world economy of larger hybrids such as the Lexus GS and BMW’s 5-series diesels is even more marked.

 

[niky]

It’s understood that gap between the real-world economy of larger hybrids such as the Lexus GS and BMW’s 5-series diesels is even more marked.

That's quite an understatement... seeing as how big Hybrids don't get much better fuel mileage than similar sized gasoline cars... see:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/04/09/in-the-autobloggreen-garage-2007-nissan-altima-hybrid/
(Wherein the brand-spanking-new Altima 2.5 Hybrid gets real world economy similar to the author's previous vehicle, a 2 liter Dodge Stratus)

Fuel economy runs in real-world conditions by various testers have shown that small turbodiesels get economy very similar (sometimes better, sometimes worse, never by much) to hybrids, with performance as good or better than the hybrids in terms of low-end response.

In the end, though, I don't think a hybrid could ever be as economical as a pure combustion vehicle or a pure electric vehicle once all factors are taken into account.

 

[TheCracker]

There's an interesting article in this months EVO mag on an interview with some Bentley high-brass (the fact he works for Bentley is obviously irrelivent for this matter) who previously co-ordinated VW's eco developments. He didn't rate current hybrid technology as a viable direction for enviromentaly friendly cars to go towards. He said that once away from the stop-start enviroment of city centre driving, most hybrids are no more economical than an average diesel car. The extra weight of the fuel cells and electric motors cancelling any advantage hybrids have. He thinks that Bio-fuels will be the direction everyone will have to head towards, but as it stands, the actual production of the bio-fuel is currently nowhere near as efficient as it should/could be.

 

[YSSMAN]

^ Exactly, but eco-heads who buy into Toyota's idiotic idea on hybrid technology won't hear otherwise. I argued with a kid about it last night for an hour and a half, and it would seem as though he couldn't comprehend the fact that diesel power offers similar performance to petrol engines, at a marginal increase in cost (for the car), but returns significantly better fuel economy... Compare it to the hybrids, and the situation becomes laughable.

I'm glad BMW is sticking with diesel and bringing a full-line of models to the US next year. If BMW can do it, anybody can, and its only a matter of time before we see diesels spread across the lines at GM and Chrysler... Problem is, Ford seems to be stuck on the hybrid game with Toyota, and personally speaking, I don't see it going anywhere. Granted, a lot of automakers are playing to hybrids because its the 'hip' alternative at the moment, but the main reason why GM is working hard with other companies and not alone is generally because they don't see the future with the technology...

...And they're right...

 

[TheCracker]

Hybrid's could be viable if only battery/fuel cell technology got much better. As it stands these things just aren't efficient enough and offer a poor range under pure battery power.

 

[Wolfe]

I used to think that despite their flaws, hybrids were still useful due to their reduction of emissions...but now I know that's pointless.

Diesels FTW!

 

[Tornado]

So, BMW admits that hybrids are less economical than diesels...but they still plan on releasing one? Am I missing something here?

 

[Wolfe]

So, BMW admits that hybrids are less economical than diesels...but they still plan on releasing one?

It sounds like they're promising that theirs will be more economical than a diesel...

 

[Tornado]

Well then, good luck to them. I'm just saying, Toyota has thrown the equivalent of at least 3 of their Formula 1 programs at it, and it has been about that successful.

 

[niky]

Well... it's not very successful from an engineering standpoint, and in terms of overall contribution to oil consumption reduction, it's a bust, but ye gods, its success from a marketing standpoint is phenomenal.

 

[GT Pro]

In my opinion, liquid-hydrogen combustion (or hydrogen fuel-cells further down the track) is the only viable pathway in future engines, which was brilliantly demonstrated in BMW's own H2R.
I can definately support a continued development of a diesel engine over BMW's strange petrol-electric idea, but only as long as they continue to develop the H2R's engine for production use in the future.

I'm glad BMW is sticking with diesel and bringing a full-line of models to the US next year. If BMW can do it, anybody can, and its only a matter of time before we see diesels spread across the lines at GM and Chrysler... Problem is, Ford seems to be stuck on the hybrid game with Toyota, and personally speaking, I don't see it going anywhere. Granted, a lot of automakers are playing to hybrids because its the 'hip' alternative at the moment, but the main reason why GM is working hard with other companies and not alone is generally because they don't see the future with the technology...

Exactly, so what I ask is why BMW and many other manufacturers even bother to waste valuable time and money on petrol-electric engines that have no real future in the face of no-emission, unlimited supplied, renewable hydrogen engines in the long run?

 

[TsLeng]

A diesel hybrid would be 👍

 

[GT Pro]

edit.

 

[ExigeEvan]

In my opinion, liquid-hydrogen combustion (or hydrogen fuel-cells further down the track) is the only viable pathway in future engines, which was brilliantly demonstrated in BMW's own H2R.

Hydrogen is very quickly losing support. Once hailed as the no-emissions fuel of the future several holes have been found in its use.

• Hydrogen is so volatile, it cannot presentley be carried or stored in today's pertroleum system. Unlike Bio-fuels.

• It's a huge concern safety wise. I was once told that the Hydrogen storage "gold balls" at the nearby INCO nickle refinery could have taken out half the town they were located next to. And they weren't big in comparison to gas holders you see in industrial areas, or even the petrol holders I saw at the local BP plant.

• Then there's the huge amount of energy that would be used in the process of manufacturing Hydrogen. It takes alot of energy, and where's that going to come from? Reneable sources will struggle with today's demands making Nuclear the only (and very unpopular) option.

 

[niky]

I'm still waiting for oil-producing bacteria.

C'mon... they can eat the stuff... surely we can find a way to gen-engineer bacteria to manufacture industrial grade oil...

 

[Omnis]

Or we can just, you know, use the sun.

 

[Wolfe]

Or we can just, you know, use the sun.

That's crazy talk!

You do have a point, though. All we need is a breakthrough in solar panel technology that makes it something like 10x more efficient than it is today. Current solar panels are about as effective at producing electricity as a hamster with leukemia.

 

[Azuremen]

^ Exactly, but eco-heads who buy into Toyota's idiotic idea on hybrid technology won't hear otherwise. I argued with a kid about it last night for an hour and a half, and it would seem as though he couldn't comprehend the fact that diesel power offers similar performance to petrol engines, at a marginal increase in cost (for the car), but returns significantly better fuel economy... Compare it to the hybrids, and the situation becomes laughable.

I'm glad BMW is sticking with diesel and bringing a full-line of models to the US next year. If BMW can do it, anybody can, and its only a matter of time before we see diesels spread across the lines at GM and Chrysler... Problem is, Ford seems to be stuck on the hybrid game with Toyota, and personally speaking, I don't see it going anywhere. Granted, a lot of automakers are playing to hybrids because its the 'hip' alternative at the moment, but the main reason why GM is working hard with other companies and not alone is generally because they don't see the future with the technology...

...And they're right...

Its harder to tell where the future will go with the technology if the technology behind batteries ever advances (its kinda been the slow, left behind guy in the technological development side of the world).

And you know I love Toyota, but I don't hesitate to mention the wonderful world of diesels that we don't get here in the US, ever. I also constantly point out that the Prius gets mid 40 mpg range or so, not the 60 something people claim. The dim wit super eco heads are just... annoying as heck. I just tell them to go play in some more organic foods that aren't really that organic...

My thoughts on hybrids are use the technology to give massive torque boost to high strung engines, rather than focusing on better fuel economy. Its hard to argue with an electric motor that makes 400 ft lbs of torque at 1 rpm.

On the future of cars though, pure electric will be the way to go. The electric motor is much more efficient than a combustion engine could ever be.