BMW M3 GTR vs. Murcielago

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dougboyy
Simple question

which one would be quicker on a race track. I've been wonderin about this for a while but cant seem to come up with the facts or statistics to prove this.

Seeing that the murcielago couldnt shake off a lancer evolution in Top Gear, i dont see how it can be better than the M3 GTR. Yet the lambo looks good on paper

any ideas?
 
Are you talking about the M3 GTR, or the M3 GTR Strasse Version?

The Strasse Version (390hp, 3000lbs) would most likely have trouble beating a Murcielago, but the M3 GTR (450hp, 2400lbs, 7'12" Nurburgring laptime) would just be long gone.
 
It also has got to depend on the track... I couldn't see the street version beating the Murcielago at the Mans.. but maybe on some nervous small tight track it would beat it..
 
gibus
It also has got to depend on the track... I couldn't see the street version beating the Murcielago at the Mans.. but maybe on some nervous small tight track it would beat it..
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It'll all depend on the track.

On a long straight track, the Murcie's top speed will show through and the GTR will be left floundering.

There's so many variables that need to be set out - "on a race track" isn't enough.
 
I think we can assume a "normal" race track (which excludes Le Mans, the Nordschleife, Monte Carlo, etc...). At VW's test track in Germany, the Lamborghini would surely have the advantage on the 6-mile straights :).
 
ferrari_chris
👍

It'll all depend on the track.

On a long straight track, the Murcie's top speed will show through and the GTR will be left floundering.

There's so many variables that need to be set out - "on a race track" isn't enough.
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But in this case, it just might be enough. The M3 GTR road version has its work cut out for it against the Murcielago, no matter what kind of track. Sure, the M3 is lighter and most likely more nimble overall, but the Murc can power out of corners confidently with its AWD, and that helps on small tracks.
 
The shorter the straights, the more the performance is defined by the torque spread. If the M3 GTR has good torque, it is likely to worry the Murcielago on a tight track. This was why the Evo was harrying the Murcielago on Top Gear: its engine is so torquey that once it's on-boost it can deliver massive amounts of power over a wide rev band, whereas the NA Lambo needs lots of revs.

If you have longer straights, the Lamborghini would be able to spend more time in its ideal power band, and would thus be able to make better use of its power advantage.
 
I can't think of a single venue where the Lambo would have a snowball's chance in hell against a GT car, except for perhaps a top speed run on the Bonneville Salt Flats and even then it would take a long time to catch the GTR.

This is not a Lamborghini vs. BMW comparison, it's a street car vs. race car comparison. A Porsche Carrera GT would get smeared by a 911 GT3-RSR. An Enzo would be easily turmped by an F430 GT.

Weight. Tires. Aerodynamics. Gearing. Suspension geometry. Race cars have road cars pretty much covered. That's why they're race cars.

Now if you're talking about the GTR Strasse in full street trim as delivery by the factory (full interior, street tires, exhaust system), then I'd probably go with the Lambo, except on a short technical track, where the M3 has a better chance.


M
 
...I think he was refering to the GTR Strasse, as it really wouldnt be fair to compare the street Lambo to a race-spec BMW.

On a smaller, tighter track youre probably going to see the Lambo pull it out overall. But its going to be a tight-ish race with the GTR Strasse on a tighter track.

Here is a link to a video that has the Murc vs the CSL, check it out:
Lamborghini vs M3 CSL (and others) shootout
 
GilesGuthrie
The shorter the straights, the more the performance is defined by the torque spread. If the M3 GTR has good torque, it is likely to worry the Murcielago on a tight track. This was why the Evo was harrying the Murcielago on Top Gear: its engine is so torquey that once it's on-boost it can deliver massive amounts of power over a wide rev band, whereas the NA Lambo needs lots of revs.

If you have longer straights, the Lamborghini would be able to spend more time in its ideal power band, and would thus be able to make better use of its power advantage.
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The Evo dogging the Murc wasn't Just any other Evo - That was an FQ400 producing 400Bhp with all the hospitality of a rabid pitbull. The Stig took it round the TG track in 1'24.800 (And The Stig completely blew the lap out of the Hammerhead.. No drive whatsoever - dropping out of the powerband was a really bad idea) - The M3 CSL goes around the TG track in 1'28.000 and the Murc in 1'23.7..

So assuming the M3 GTR is 4 seconds better than the CSL, it just might give the Murc a run for it's money - but I doubt it...
 
YSSMAN
...I think he was refering to the GTR Strasse, as it really wouldnt be fair to compare the street Lambo to a race-spec BMW.
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I'm starting think this is what the OP meant in the first place. But to me, the GTR is and always has been the race car.

I think the GTR Strasse's inclusion in games like GT4 and NFS:MW has lead to a level of awareness of this car that is out of proportion with it's actual impact or importance in the BMW landscape.

People may be tempted to think BMW Motorsport produced this car as the ultimate M3 or that it was made in any signifigant numbers. They didn't. 15 was the number I read back in 2002 --they all went to people like the Sultan of Brunei and wouldn't have been made in the first place except for their need to satisfy the ACO's homologation requirements. The car is so rare it may as well not exist.

I've SEEN a Murcielago. A few, in fact. Most people will never lay eyes on a GTR and if they do, it will more than likely be the race car. Hence, my assumption.


M
 
Id say the FQ400 would beat the M3 GTR around a average track. I only just recently found out how blistering FQ340's were. Definte bargains.
 
///M-Spec
I think the GTR Strasse's inclusion in games like GT4 and NFS:MW has lead to a level of awareness of this car that is out of proportion with it's actual impact or importance in the BMW landscape.

15 was the number I read back in 2002 --they all went to people like the Sultan of Brunei and wouldn't have been made in the first place except for their need to satisfy the ACO's homologation requirements.
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They were going to make more (around 200 I think), but the ACO called BS on their plan, and banned the race car anyway. So, BMW stopped making the GTR Strasse because the project was so expensive and ultimately pointless.
 
...Well we had neither the GTR nor the CSL here in the States, so you Europeans are rather lucky. We had a competition package available on the M3 that used the CSL's suspension, steering, brakes, and stability control, as well as special wheels/tires, and paint. Still, without the stripped interior, carbon fiber roof, and boosted power, it just was not the same thing.
 
YSSMAN
...Well we had neither the GTR nor the CSL here in the States, so you Europeans are rather lucky. We had a competition package available on the M3 that used the CSL's suspension, steering, brakes, and stability control, as well as special wheels/tires, and paint. Still, without the stripped interior, carbon fiber roof, and boosted power, it just was not the same thing.
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The (US only) Competition Package (ZCP) uses the same suspension as the "base" M3. BMW made a marketing blunder when they announced the package. They said the 2005 M3 ZCP has a new revised suspension. This is true from MY 2004. What they didn't add was that ALL 2005+ M3 Coupes have the same new revised suspension, ZCP or not.

The only parts from the CSL are the brakes, some of the software and the steering wheel.


M
 
///M-Spec
I can't think of a single venue where the Lambo would have a snowball's chance in hell against a GT car, except for perhaps a top speed run on the Bonneville Salt Flats and even then it would take a long time to catch the GTR.

This is not a Lamborghini vs. BMW comparison, it's a street car vs. race car comparison. A Porsche Carrera GT would get smeared by a 911 GT3-RSR. An Enzo would be easily turmped by an F430 GT.

Weight. Tires. Aerodynamics. Gearing. Suspension geometry. Race cars have road cars pretty much covered. That's why they're race cars.

Now if you're talking about the GTR Strasse in full street trim as delivery by the factory (full interior, street tires, exhaust system), then I'd probably go with the Lambo, except on a short technical track, where the M3 has a better chance.


M
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Hmm, I take it I wasn't the only one to read that article then? ;)
 
thanks for the info ppl.

i had the M3 GTR strasse version in mind because it would be a no brainer that the race version is the better car. It just made me wonder because i've been watching a lot of top gear lately and they never really tested an M3 GTR.

if it really depended on the track, then lets use the top gear test track as reference
 
Bubble Bunny
... if it really depended on the track, then lets use the top gear test track as reference
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Well given the times of other cars around there and the giants that have been killed I'd be tempted to say the GTR might pip the big Murcie.

It'd be close though.
 
YSSMAN
...I think he was refering to the GTR Strasse, as it really wouldnt be fair to compare the street Lambo to a race-spec BMW.

On a smaller, tighter track youre probably going to see the Lambo pull it out overall. But its going to be a tight-ish race with the GTR Strasse on a tighter track.

Here is a link to a video that has the Murc vs the CSL, check it out:
Lamborghini vs M3 CSL (and others) shootout
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link -- that's one helluva Best Motoring battle. :)
 
kylehnat
They were going to make more (around 200 I think), but the ACO called BS on their plan, and banned the race car anyway. So, BMW stopped making the GTR Strasse because the project was so expensive and ultimately pointless.
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Yeah, that might have had something to do with the fact that the car had raced its way through almost an entire ALMS series before even a picture of a road-going version was supplied, let alone the actual car!

I saw an M3 CSL on my way to work yesterday.
 
kylehnat
So basically it's only a slight upgrade from the otherwise "crappy" M3? :sly:
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Yep. Same 'crappy' ;) car, just $4,000 more expensive. At $2,000 the package would be worth it. At twice the price, it becomes very iffy. I would have expected much different content (and de-content) from a package BMW called "Competition".

*McLaren*
Hmm, I take it I wasn't the only one to read that article then? ;)
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Apparently not ;)

GilesGuthrie
Yeah, that might have had something to do with the fact that the car had raced its way through almost an entire ALMS series before even a picture of a road-going version was supplied, let alone the actual car!
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Hey now, it was within the rules...


M
 

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