Bouncing, skipping FIAT Coupe Turbo Plus

[Dan Watkins]

Hey,

Anyone noticed that the FIAT Coupe Turbo plus has a little problem?, I was testing it today, with my usual road tyres/no aids, and when I did the 1/4 at Las Vegas you accelerate in first, the front lifts it sits back on its back suspension then the front end begins to skip, change into 2nd and it does the same, it sounds, looks and feels awful

Dan.

 

[futuredrifter]

Maybe its ur suspension try to stiffen it up a little bit.

 

[Dan Watkins]

Stock suspension, I like to drive my cars as the manufacturer (or PD ) intended

Dan.

 

[Grand Prix]

Lack of grip from acceleration pushing the weight to the rear most likely. Was the horsepower upgraded? Anything over 350 HP in a FF car isn't going to make the tires happy.

 

[Dan Watkins]

Nope, all standard, nothing changed apart from the tyres to road tyres, and all the driving aids disabled.

Try it, you will see.....

Dan.

 

[JTSnooks]

This is an excellent example of why only an idiot chooses a FF car for drag racing (in real life, not saying what you're doing was stupid). I haven't noticed it yet on GT4 cars, but I'm glad it happens, because that's what happens in real life. You often get wheelhop, torque steer, and bad traction when flooring a FF car off the line.

 

[Dan Watkins]

I have driven many, many powerfull FWD cars in real life, none EVER performed like the Fiat in GT4, heck, I have a FWD car I use daily that has nearly 400nm of torque and that doesnt hop of have torque steer.

Dan.

 

[Scaff]

I have driven many, many powerfull FWD cars in real life, none EVER performed like the Fiat in GT4, heck, I have a FWD car I use daily that has nearly 400nm of torque and that doesnt hop of have torque steer.

Dan.

I which case you may well have a rather unique FWD car.

My car (Toyota Celica T-sport 180 nm of torque) will hop like crazy if you give it anymore than about 5,000rpm and then just dump the clutch.

I find it hard to believe that a car with approx 295 ft/lbs (400nm) of torque driven through the front wheels only suffers from no hop or torque steer at all.

I too have driven a wide range of FWD cars (as part of my job - I train in the Automotive industry) and have come across plenty that behave in this manner when you launch in this manner. That includes the Fiat Coupe Turbo, which I have driven on a number of occasions.

Regards

Scaff

 

[den brakke]

I have driven many, many powerfull FWD cars in real life, none EVER performed like the Fiat in GT4, heck, I have a FWD car I use daily that has nearly 400nm of torque and that doesnt hop of have torque steer.

Dan.

What car is it if I may ask?

 

[Dan Watkins]

Its a chipped Mondeo Zetec S TDCi 130, a 2lt Turbo diesel, has been tuned by unichip and on a rolling road is pushing out 170hp and 400nm on transient overboost, diesel is always much much more torque than HP, and it will out accelerate a 911 turbo in-gear from 50-70.

All in all a very fast, very economical car

Of course, if you dump the clutch at 5000rpm it will light up the wheel and maybe bounce, but the Fiat in GT4 I am not doing that, just accelerating normally in 2nd gear, and its bouncing all over the place.

Dan.

 

[Scaff]

Its a chipped Mondeo Zetec S TDCi 130, a 2lt Turbo diesel, has been tuned by unichip and on a rolling road is pushing out 170hp and 400nm on transient overboost, diesel is always much much more torque than HP, and it will out accelerate a 911 turbo in-gear from 50-70.

All in all a very fast, very economical car

Of course, if you dump the clutch at 5000rpm it will light up the wheel and maybe bounce, but the Fiat in GT4 I am not doing that, just accelerating normally in 2nd gear, and its bouncing all over the place.

Dan.

In your original post you said:

you accelerate in first, the front lifts it sits back on its back suspension then the front end begins to skip, change into 2nd and it does the same, it sounds, looks and feels awful

which I'm sure you will agree is not the same as:

just accelerating normally in 2nd gear, and its bouncing all over the place.

Now I would agree that gradual appliaction of the throttle in second should not cause wheel hop; however going from WOT (Wide Open Throttle) in first gear to the same in second in a Front wheel drive car is going to cause this to occur.

Still, time to get in a Fiat Coupe in GT4 and have a look for myself.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Alfaholic]

I have driven many, many powerfull FWD cars in real life, none EVER performed like the Fiat in GT4, heck, I have a FWD car I use daily that has nearly 400nm of torque and that doesnt hop of have torque steer.

Dan.

Get out of here! My one-point-bugger-all FWD Fiesta will tramp and torque steer if I ask it nicely enough, and the only time it ever smelt 400nm was when it was parked behind a garbage truck!

In fact, the behaviour you describe sounds very similar to what I suffered in a Volvo T4, which is also around 200BHP and turbocharged, like the Fiat.

 

[Scaff]

I've just tried the Fiat Coupe Turbo in both standing starts and rolling acceleration tests. Car used was stock, no driver aids and N2 tyres.

From a standing start its typical FWD, unless you are very careful with the throttle you are going to suffer massive hop and wheel spin, and in WOT situations this can continue into second gear. However given that the Coupe is kicking out 228 ft/lbs at a very low 2,500rpm its behaviour is very good indeed (216bhp).

rolling acceration was not an issue, even with swift transition to WOT, repeated braking and rapid acceration in second gear from a range of speeds seemed to cause little problem.

For a comparison I then jumped into an Alfa 147 GTA (again stock, no driver aids and N2 tyres), which produces 232 ft/lbs at 4,800rpm (259bhp). The Alfa is a much harder car to get the power down in, showing much more visiable levels of hop and having a definate issue in second gear with transfering the power to the wheels.


In regard to the Coupe I have to say that its stock performance on N2's was neither surprising (having driven the real thing I know how good it is) or inaccurate. For a FWD petrol turbo it transfers the power well, having only those issues you would expect. Its reaction to rolling application of the throttle was also very good; If I could level one complaint at the GT4 version of the car, it would be the lack of defined torque steer, which the real car does suffer from.

It may be down to differences in our driving styles or that my tests were carried out using a DFP (I have no idea if you use a wheel or DS2). Don't get me wrong the Coupe does have some minor wheel hop in WOT applications in second gear, but no more than would be expected (and much less than other FWD cars) and this trait is realistic.

Regards

Scaff

 

[ferrari_chris]

Hmmmm, ~SP33~ and I had a similar conversation about the standard Vauxhall Vectra.
After a bit of testing I came to the conclusion, that this hopping or skipping was GT4 trying to replicate axel tramp.

I think there are quite a few cars that suffer this, to varying degrees. I got it with my Spec-C WRX and have recently experienced it in my new Beetle RSi. Not as harsh as in the FF's though, but still present!

 

[ving]

mocketh my fiat will thou!!!


@ scaff: wish we had the fait coupe in Oz!

 

[niky]

I don't get axle tramp....

But my car only has 142 ft-lbs of torque... okay, so it's not very powerful...

I'll go sit in a corner now...



I have noticed it on the Vectra, most other FF cars in the game are okay... have to try the Fiat...

 

[Dan Watkins]

Interesting, I am using a pad so it could be down the the application of non-progressive throttle, nothing to full in a very short space of time, I will revisit it again and see how it goes.

Cheers

Dan.

 

[Scaff]

Interesting, I am using a pad so it could be down the the application of non-progressive throttle, nothing to full in a very short space of time, I will revisit it again and see how it goes.

Cheers

Dan.

Use of a DS2 I would imagine is part of the problem, while the buttons are pressure sensitive the travel is very short. As you say the result is nothing to full in a very short space of time, something that make clean launches in FWD cars in the game very difficult.

@ scaff: wish we had the fait coupe in Oz!

Wonderful car (if you could live with the somtimes bizzare electrics and Fiat dealer network), I've never owned one myself, but driven quite a few.

Sad day when Fiat killed it off, and another example of a contraverial Chris Bangle (he was head of Fiat design when it was signed off) project. Personally I think its a wonderful looking car, one thing you miss with GT4 and its lack of interiors is the body-coloured section that runs the full length of the dash, looks damn good in my opinion.

Regards

Scaff

 

[yeti]

Its a chipped Mondeo Zetec S TDCi 130, a 2lt Turbo diesel, has been tuned by unichip and on a rolling road is pushing out 170hp and 400nm on transient overboost, diesel is always much much more torque than HP, and it will out accelerate a 911 turbo in-gear from 50-70.

All in all a very fast, very economical car

Of course, if you dump the clutch at 5000rpm it will light up the wheel and maybe bounce, but the Fiat in GT4 I am not doing that, just accelerating normally in 2nd gear, and its bouncing all over the place.

Dan.

The fact that it's a Diesel will probably answer why you get less hop...

The Diesel will weigh a lot more on the front end and therefore will maintain more traction.

BTW Does your diesel actually rev much further than 5000? Mine redlines at 4.5 and is limited at 5... not to mention you get absolutely bugger all power above 4.5!!

C.

 

[stumpydino]

Wonderful car (if you could live with the somtimes bizzare electrics and Fiat dealer network), I've never owned one myself, but driven quite a few.

Sad day when Fiat killed it off, and another example of a contraverial Chris Bangle (he was head of Fiat design when it was signed off) project. Personally I think its a wonderful looking car, one thing you miss with GT4 and its lack of interiors is the body-coloured section that runs the full length of the dash, looks damn good in my opinion.

Regards

Scaff

my friend at work has one in the nice purple color, its a great car and looks cool with all the lights turned on sounds good for an I-5 too tho hes swapping it soon for an elise

 

[barryl85]

Fiat Coupe's are badly built cars, but i do like them! maybe thats problem

 

[Woolie Wool]

One thing that's really missing in GT4 is torque steer. In a modded Eclipse GT pushing 500 hp, I should have huge amounts of torque steer, but the car goes straight every time.

Yeah, FF cars suck at crazy HP levels. The 147 GTA I used for the GTA cuo had traction problems during acceleration even with TCS, ASM, and soft racing tires. It was such an unpleasant car to drive that I bought an Audi A3 for the hot hatch league (I would win with the 147, but I wouldn't have fun doing so).

 

[MasterGT]

Stock suspension, I like to drive my cars as the manufacturer (or PD ) intended

Many cars are set up with the exact same stock settings, which may have nothing at all to do with making any of those cars handle well. GT4 is a game, not real life, and settings reflect that.

Set your cars up properly, so they handle better.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[doblocruiser]

Any of you guys like some Fiat Coupe hotlappin!

 

[kane2_be]

I have driven many, many powerfull FWD cars in real life, none EVER performed like the Fiat in GT4, heck, I have a FWD car I use daily that has nearly 400nm of torque and that doesnt hop of have torque steer.

Dan.

my brother owns that car (Coupe Turbo +),and when he hits the floor,the car doesn't hop or anything.

 

[ZeratulSG]

Yeah, FF cars suck at crazy HP levels. The 147 GTA I used for the GTA cuo had traction problems during acceleration even with TCS, ASM, and soft racing tires. It was such an unpleasant car to drive that I bought an Audi A3 for the hot hatch league (I would win with the 147, but I wouldn't have fun doing so).

I recall a Lotus (I think) engineer once saying that the most power one could reasonably put in a FWD drivetrain (and expect the car to be driveable) is 220bhp. So the 147 GTA breaks that ruling out of the box. Of course, it's not a very driveable car

 

[95GTIVR6]

Not to be anal, but I rather enjoy driving FWD vehicles. Maybe it is because I own one in real life but in GT4 I like driving them as well. I find it takes almost as much skill to drive a high powered FWD vehicle as it does the Speed 12 (maybe not AS much but close). Although I have not driven the Fiat in GT4, I have driven the 147 GTA. I do beileve it is over powered but I disagree with it being difficult to drive. Maybe it is just my preference but I think FWD deserves respect umong other drivetrains. True, it may not be the most practical drivetrain as some have stated but it serves its purpose in many various/difficult driving conditions.

Not a rant,

Nate

 

[Dan Watkins]

At least the GTA doesnt have this bouncy bouncy smashy smashy trait of the Fiat, but it does show another unrealistic trait, that being its power-on oversteer............, yep power-on oversteer in a FWD car 👎

I truely hope PD rework the FWD engine for GT5, GT4's is pretty useless.....

Dan.

 

[Alfaholic]

I recall a Lotus (I think) engineer once saying that the most power one could reasonably put in a FWD drivetrain (and expect the car to be driveable) is 220bhp. So the 147 GTA breaks that ruling out of the box. Of course, it's not a very driveable car

I've heard that one before too, and I tend to think it's a bit like the "a plane will never break the sound barrier" thing. Which was quite true at one time, planes breaking the sound barrier would crash, but as technology and knowledge improved, they learnt how to make planes that could do it without crashing. Same goes for the 220 or 250 BHP statement. I have no doubt that technology will push that limit up over time. The statement was probably true at the time it was made, but things have changed. FWD cars now are doing 150mph regularly. I remember a time when 130mph made a hot hatch, and when Opel released a 165bhp Kadett with FWD and an LSD in SA, it was sold with a mandatory advanced driving course because Opel claimed the car was too fast and difficult to drive to be entrusted to the hands of an underskilled driver. And that was a hot hatch, not some knee high turbocharged mid engined monster on road roller tyres. Someone will figure out how to do it, and chances are, it'll probably be Lotus.

 

[ZeratulSG]

I've heard that one before too, and I tend to think it's a bit like the "a plane will never break the sound barrier" thing. Which was quite true at one time, planes breaking the sound barrier would crash, but as technology and knowledge improved, they learnt how to make planes that could do it without crashing. Same goes for the 220 or 250 BHP statement. I have no doubt that technology will push that limit up over time. The statement was probably true at the time it was made, but things have changed. FWD cars now are doing 150mph regularly. I remember a time when 130mph made a hot hatch, and when Opel released a 165bhp Kadett with FWD and an LSD in SA, it was sold with a mandatory advanced driving course because Opel claimed the car was too fast and difficult to drive to be entrusted to the hands of an underskilled driver. And that was a hot hatch, not some knee high turbocharged mid engined monster on road roller tyres. Someone will figure out how to do it, and chances are, it'll probably be Lotus.

I would agree that this limitation will be extended over time. However, the limiting factor here is really the tires. FWD cars pushing big power can be very fast in a straight line, but the problem emerges when you start to turn under power. There is only so much grip available in a tire and when you're using the fronts to both steer and drive the car, you're going to get buckets of understeer. Not to mention you have two tires at the back, which probably cost you just as much as the fronts, and they're just along for the ride.

Oh and to my knowledge that statement was made about 2 years ago, and road tire technology has not advanced that much since then. At present, performance road tires can take a little over 1g, give or take, and it took a couple of decades to surpass that mark.

But all of this aside, for me personally, I just don't like FWD cars. There are exceptions, like some hot hatches (Focus RS, the old Golf GTi Mk I, and others), but what makes these cars good IMO is not their awesome handling (which they don't really have) but their character and spirit. They're fun cars. But when it comes to real performance and cornering ability, FWD just won't cut it, and even if they get road tires pushing 2g and production FWD cars exceeding 350bhp they will always and forever be limited by their drivetrain design.