Brake Balance

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Brioso

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I don't know if is just me or something, but sometimes certain car brakes much better with racing brakes and the brake balance controller set as default(3front-3rear).
I checked some tuning settings regarding the brake balance and I can't get to a point!!I noticed that if I change the brake balance settings, the car makes more noise when I brake

Cheers :)
 
The noise is basically the ABS switching on and off because your brakes lock up too much. This happened to the Zonda Race Car in GT3, it had pudding for brakes if you set it too high (you could tell it was too high from all thesmoke coming from its tires) but a 3-1 it was perfect. Too strong just overworks the brakes, no good.
Generally 10+ is overkill on most cars and it will only be to the detriment of your car. Generall anywhere from 3-1 to about 8-7 will work for race cars.
 
You can set them higher than 10, in fact I set them to 15-15 on every car. Just use a lighter touch on the brakes, only use full press when u r on a straight trying to late brake pass a car, if you are loosing control under braking it can actually be due to your LSD settings.
 
I think if you're using the DS2 you should set them low because it's harder (Not impossible) to brake lightly when you first apply the brakes, whereas with the DFP you've got loads more 'throw' in your braking and thus can take advantage of stronger braking application by the controller.
 
Yeah I'm with a DS2..
So if the settings are higher the amout of brake applied should not be to strong.
Btw do you guys apply, and especialy who as a DFP that "touch" of throttle when reducing a gear?

Gona test when I get home
Thx!!
 
in gt3, it was observed on this forum that a brake balance setting of 1-1 was exactly the same as a setting of 24-24, it was only when you started differing the force at each end that brake balance made a difference. is that the case in gt4? cbf testing :p
 
Just wondering, jamie ur a knowledgeable bloke, so i was wondering, if u take a stock M3 CSL , add, r.exhaust & suspension, S.Brakes, S2 tires, Sports, beacuse u have to have them for Professional Na Races. why when i brake is there a load of screeching and smoke, same with turning at around 100mph, or on a highspeed bend. :yuck: Any help Appriceated


Yours Kinetic
 
My theory on braking is that the higher the setting, the higher the force with which the calipers grip the rotors. However if is beyond the grip of the tires, they you will begin to skid and the ABS will turn on (therefore creating that jerking motion and the sound).

THe best way to brake is just below lock up. I said most cars, try the nissan r390 with 15s, it just overworks the ABS. Race cars have brakes that are already good enough stock. If you really want to test it, you should up the balance until your brakes start locking up.
 
The scale is "relative", it allows you to have 24 levels of intensity BETWEEN each pair of brakes, but anything the same: 3-3, 24-24, 15-15 would be equivalent to zero on an "absolute" scale.
 
aarque
The scale is "relative", it allows you to have 24 levels of intensity BETWEEN each pair of brakes, but anything the same: 3-3, 24-24, 15-15 would be equivalent to zero on an "absolute" scale.
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I don't think this is true because I noticed significant differenct between 9-9 vs. 15-15 setting on DFP.

Breaking at Apricot Hill, after the straight, I noticed that on 9-9 setting, I needed to press the pedal deeper to slow down the car to a desired speed for the corner ahead. on 15-15 setting I needed to only press the pedal lightly to achieve the same speed as above.
 
r_master78
I don't think this is true because I noticed significant differenct between 9-9 vs. 15-15 setting on DFP.

Breaking at Apricot Hill, after the straight, I noticed that on 9-9 setting, I needed to press the pedal deeper to slow down the car to a desired speed for the corner ahead. on 15-15 setting I needed to only press the pedal lightly to achieve the same speed as above.
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I must credit you with having experienced similar results myself. My normal pattern has dropped from around 23 (more is better, right?) to somewhere in the 15 range, where lower values "made me feel like" braking distance was increasing; HOWEVER, the Minolt (misspelling intentional, search related) tune I recently posted definately was better, I'd considered it a fluke at 10, and might even be better lower...back to the track, I suppose...
 
For the record, I've pretty much standardized on 4/1 brake balance on all the Le Mans prototypes. Any more than that and I get locking rear wheels and spinouts.
 
I started out GT4 using the same settings that I had with GT3: 20/15. I noticed that in GT4 though, that I would hear and feel ABS kicking on at this setting. What did I do? Well at first I just didn't pull the DS2 stick down as hard. This was great because then I could brake hard without getting into ABS and if I wanted to, could slam the control stick all the way back so I could "stomp and steer" that is, brake while cornering.

My brother noticed my brake settings one time though and told me of his setup. He said that on 7/5 the ABS does not kick in and it allows for shorter stopping distances. I tried this trick and found it to be true. The car holds "impending lockup" better on a setting of 7/5 and ABS does not lock-release-lock-release-lock-release etc. The downside to using this setting is that if you are braking and cornering, you have a chance of overwhelming the tires' grip circle if the chassis is not settled and may sometimes go for a spin as a result.

I like to keep my brakes in a 4:3 front to rear ratio so I have gone to 8/6 as my settings. I do sometimes go up as high as 16/12 or 20/15 though. I have found, as mentioned above, that invoking ABS works great for overtaking another car under braking. I can shoot down on the inside while on the brakes and not worry about lifting off the brakes before the turn, since ABS can handling braking & cornering simultaneously.
 
so just so i understand it better...
if your tires are screaming when breaking that means the brake control is set too high, or i'm using too much braking force?

also are there any phsyical things i can note?
i have a ForceFeedback wheel (not the DFP) and when i brake i get alot of vibration and a left/right motion, which i have to fight, to keep the car straight..

Thanks....
Nelsy.
 
Braking distances are theoretically shortest just before lockup, so you should theoretically set each axle to brake at their thresholds ...

Of course, you can also use the brake balance as a handling tool as well ...
 
Nelsy
also are there any phsyical things i can note?
i have a ForceFeedback wheel (not the DFP) and when i brake i get alot of vibration and a left/right motion, which i have to fight, to keep the car straight..

Thanks....
Nelsy.
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If you ask me, your your controller is screaming feedback (physical thing you might want to note) at you. It is saying,
" nowmylefttireisslidingNOWMYLEFTTIREISGRIPPINGnowmylefttireissliding...."
Of course it is hard to interpret because at the same time it is saying,
"NOWMYRIGHTTIREISGRIPPINGnowmyrighttireisslidingNOWMTRIGHTTIREISGRIPPING..."
must be hard on the durn thing.
 
Droptop_Chick
Most of my street cars I have set at 5/10. The racecars I leave alone, they brake good enough as it is.
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Isn't it less effective to have the rear brakes harder than the front? Cause when you brake, the weight of the car goes down onto the front so there's more traction at the front. Which also means the rears will lock up easier if set harder than the front. I'm not sure cause I haven't tested those settings.
 
My Left Yarble
Isn't it less effective to have the rear brakes harder than the front? Cause when you brake, the weight of the car goes down onto the front so there's more traction at the front. Which also means the rears will lock up easier if set harder than the front. I'm not sure cause I haven't tested those settings.
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Not really, it helps reduce the understeer on late breaking when you dive into the apex, the rear will rotate. It helps on long sweeping corners (i.e. - last corner of Tsukuba), lightly press the brake and it'll correct the understeer if you go in a tad bit fast. Trying to simulate trail braking (left foot braking). It is a drift setup, but I prefer it for pretty much all my street cars. The setup isn't for everyone though. My roommates can't drive any of my cars, cause they say I have jacked up brakes.
 
My Left Yarble
Isn't it less effective to have the rear brakes harder than the front? Cause when you brake, the weight of the car goes down onto the front so there's more traction at the front. Which also means the rears will lock up easier if set harder than the front. I'm not sure cause I haven't tested those settings.
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The traction, per wheel pair, although affected by weight transfer, is not governed by it in a properly tuned suspension. So far as I know, only motorcycles can actually do "stoppies." Therefore, it is valid to assume, as the scrolling text at the bottom of the tuning screen implicitly states "If the front is stronger, the car will tend to oversteer and if the rear is stronger the car will tend to oversteer," that a cars turn characteristics can be enhanced- or quelled- by proper adjustment of the controller. Many cars end up with TOO MUCH oversteer, as in the case of rallying, for example, in which case you could concentrate the majority of braking in the front wheels to control entry angles.
 
i turned of the aids for this thing and now i cant make it turn in properly while braking. i usually dont buy a brake balance controller cuz most of the time im okay with the cars handling while braking just by fiddling the suspension, but i cant get this car right so i got one. i did some fiddling with it and couldnt get it right. then i tested it with 5/15 just to see what would happen and its still plowed straight forward. i cant figure it so i hope someone else has a clue whats wrong. other than braking the car handles great.
 
Here's my experience concerning brake balance:
I used Denso Sard Supra on Test Course (free run) to gain a lot of speed before the start, and as soon as the timer starts I hit the brakes full strength.
My initial settings on brake balance were 6/4, but during braking there was a lot of noise (probably ABS). When I switched to 4/4 there was less noise during braking and the car's stopping distance was at least 50 m shorter than with the 6/4 settings.
So I guess you can very easily overdo the brakes by raising BB setting too much...
 
Olyvio
i turned of the aids for this thing and now i cant make it turn in properly while braking. i usually dont buy a brake balance controller cuz most of the time im okay with the cars handling while braking just by fiddling the suspension, but i cant get this car right so i got one. i did some fiddling with it and couldnt get it right. then i tested it with 5/15 just to see what would happen and its still plowed straight forward. i cant figure it so i hope someone else has a clue whats wrong. other than braking the car handles great.
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Your rear brake balance is set far to high. I've noticed a number of people recomending that you set brake bias to the rear to cut understeer, now while this is true, it is possiable to go far to mad.

Brake modeling is much more realistically represented in GT4 (when compaired to other GT games) nad the problem with setting to high a rear brake balance was covered in this post.

Proburazitelj
Here's my experience concerning brake balance:
I used Denso Sard Supra on Test Course (free run) to gain a lot of speed before the start, and as soon as the timer starts I hit the brakes full strength.
My initial settings on brake balance were 6/4, but during braking there was a lot of noise (probably ABS). When I switched to 4/4 there was less noise during braking and the car's stopping distance was at least 50 m shorter than with the 6/4 settings.
So I guess you can very easily overdo the brakes by raising BB setting too much...
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Simply put if you bias the brakes to the rear, then the rear tyres are likely to lock first, this will result in a very unstable car, and increase your braking distance as locked tyres don't slow a car down very well and are not to hot at turning.

This subject and a lot more on brake performance has been covered in the GT4 and Brakes thread.

Have a look at that thread, particularly the link to a technical white paper about real life brake balance settings, its easy to read and can be directly applied to GT4. Heres a few links

BRake Balance tech paper

GT4 and Brakes thread

ABS test

A look at these should help, but to begin with try setting your brake balance to 3/3 and see if that makes a difference. Always remember that while your brake bias can help to trim under/over steer characteristics, its for fine adjustment only, as if you throw out your brake balance the car will be very unstable under straight line braking. If you can't get down to the right speed for a corner then under or over steer characteristics don't mean a damn thing.

If you find that you need to try and set you brake balance this high at the rear, then you normally have a problem somewhere else in the cars setup, or you are simply trying to corner quicker that the traction limit of the tyres will allow.
 
I have to say that I have been completely befuddled by the B.B.C. in GT4. The thing is so sensetive, especially with sport tires, that even one click of camber can increase braking distance which the BBC can be adjusted to compensate for. Suspension changes can change the ideal brake setting 10 clicks or more...One thing that seems constant is that the brake balance appears to have an ideal value (depending on the tire) and if a cars optimum setting is higher, than the suspension needs further tuning. In other words, 3/3 seems ideal for race tires. If a cars optimum (after skid testing) brake setting is higher than 3/3 for straight line braking; often the suspension can be adjusted to make the optimum closer to 3/3 and upon road testing the car will be found to handle better as well.
 
the 5/15 was just a test to see if there was even a chance of getting the back out while cornering. i usually try not to have a bbc, i try and rely on the suspension. one my best handling cars while cornering is my r32. no bbc or lsd or aids, and it turns in just fine while braking. the front just goes where i want it to while braking, meanwhile the gtr is just profoundly understeered while braking. i go into a long turn with just throttle and the front goes in fine, but the second i put on just 20 percent brakes the car goes straight for the outside.
 
Olyvio
i go into a long turn with just throttle and the front goes in fine, but the second i put on just 20 percent brakes the car goes straight for the outside.
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I believe that is a simulation of your front tires losing traction during braking...
 
no shiz :) my problem is its simulated a bit more than id like and id like it to be simulated more like my r32 or focus rs but i cant find the tuning tool to do this or the tuning tools i have are simply not enough to rid the car of the overly simulated understeer during even the sligthest braking. and, no, im not entirely sure how to increase grip during braking so some help would be appreciated
 

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