Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

Deal or No Deal?

  • Voted Leave - May's Deal

  • Voted Leave - No Deal

  • Voted Leave - Second Referendum

  • Did not vote/abstained - May's Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - No Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - Second Referendum

  • Voted Remain - May's Deal

  • Voted Remain - No Deal

  • Voted Remain - Second Referendum

Results are only viewable after voting.
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'Member when the Tories were the "pro-business" party? I 'member.
 
Scaff
Mail idiocy again, given the headline and then a nice piece about Lenny Henry with photo (the son of an immigrant family).
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Yep. I'd go further than to say it's idiocy, as it won't be an accident that they've done that, it's just despicable. The insinuation being (to their readers) that this successful son of an immigrant has had all of these opportunities & successes in his life not because of his personal drive, dedication, hard work, commitment, integrity, etc, but because his parents were allowed to come to Britain (there is some truth to that) and soak up all of the rich benefits of "our" land, likely taking opportunities away from natives.

The headline is totally nonsensical anyway; there's no time frame, and I'd wager most of those 3.8million EU migrants are "allowed to stay here" because we need them to fill positions and pay PAYE...
 
Scaff
Mail idiocy again, given the headline and then a nice piece about Lenny Henry with photo (the son of an immigrant family).

Worst tabloid in the UK.
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Also the idea that EU migrants are allowed to stay... as opposed to the messaging when Leave won ‘well of course you’ll be allowed to stay’.

If I could I would have the editors and owners prosecuted for hate crimes. It’s indeed an appalling rag.
 
winet
Speaking of "democracy" how about having a vote and not liking the outcome so you want to reverse it. I hope this clarifies things for you
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Non binding would be the key phrase you're missing with that.

The UK isn't a direct democracy, and the vote wasn't legally binding.

Your mixing up it not being political viable with any legal democratic process, hope that clarifies it for you.

It's also stunningly ironic that you are echoing the leave argument of 'you lost so shut up', not only does that fly in the face of the concept of free speech and political discourse, but requires people to forget that leave has done exactly that since the 1970s!

Oh and edit to add, Leave's own poster boy said before the outcome was know that a 52/48 split would leave the result unresolved and maybe need a second vote.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681
 
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winet
Speaking of "democracy" how about having a vote and not liking the outcome so you want to reverse it. I hope this clarifies things for you
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1. In the UK we have a Parliamentary Democracy. It is Parliament not the government who makes final decisions, and certainly not the public via an advisory referendum.
2. The discussion in the House of Commons isn't to reverse the vote, it is on whether or not there should be a final vote on the plans for Brexit if/when the government and the Minister of State at the Department for Exiting the European Union produce a plan for it.
3. It would be UNDEMOCRATIC for any government to push through any kind of bill without Parliamentary scrutiny; that is the whole point of our system over here.

Hope that clarifies things for you.
 
Scaff
Non binding would be the key phrase you're missing with that.

The UK isn't a direct democracy, and the vote wasn't legally binding.

Your mixing up it not being political viable with any legal democratic process, hope that clarifies it for you.

It's also stunningly ironic that you are echoing the leave argument of 'you lost so shut up', not only does that fly in the face of the concept of free speech and political discourse, but requires people to forget that leave has done exactly that since the 1970s!

Oh and edit to add, Leave's own poster boy said before the outcome was know that a 52/48 split would leave the result unresolved and maybe need a second vote.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681
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1 If that's the case why was the vote held ?
2 You are mixing up your personal feelings with what the majority wanted
3 I never said you should shut up. I am a staunch advocate of free speech
4 A second vote after two years of media propanganda. Now that is rich

I found this article from your very own BBC concerning the pending economic "disaster" after the Brexit vote.

What has happened to the UK economy since the Brexit vote?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887
 
winet
1 If that's the case why was the vote held ?
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To help ensure David Cameron remained leader of the Tory party.

winet
2 You are mixing up your personal feelings with what the majority wanted
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Nope, you were wrong about how referendums work in the UK.

winet
3 I never said you should shut up. I am a staunch advocate of free speech
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That's at odds with your stance on this.

winet
4 A second vote after two years of media propanganda. Now that is rich
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Propaganda, now who's appealing to emotions (and clearly have no clue about UK media).

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...bill-white-paper-european-union-a7558886.html

winet
I found this article from your very own BBC concerning the pending economic "disaster" after the Brexit vote.

What has happened to the UK economy since the Brexit vote?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887
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Now compare that to the rest of the EU, and the forecasts for the various leave options.

https://amp.uk.businessinsider.com/...n-europe-for-the-first-time-since-2010-2018-2
 
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Spurgy 777
Quoting one of the most biased sources in favour of remain isn’t a great counter to a neutral source like the BBC. That article is clearly trying to frame the statistics as negatively as possible when in reality the economy is far better than it was predicted to be if we voted to leave.
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Oh you’ve come back!

Better than predicted, but still worse off. Good thing the neutral BBC didn’t frame them in an overly positive way I guess, otherwise I wouldn’t have a leg to stand on!


Ok then, how about we pick something from the Financial Times?

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That a bit more positive for you? Or are they too bias?
I would link the article but it’s behind a paywall, hope screen shotting the opening paragraphs isn’t against the AUP!
 
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baldgye
Oh you’ve come back!
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Sorry, I have a life beyond arguing with you on here so if you want to keep going around in circles I'm just going to stop replying as I have better things to do. :lol:

Better than predicted, but still worse off. Good thing the neutral BBC didn’t frame them in an overly positive way I guess, otherwise I wouldn’t have a leg to stand on!

That a bit more positive for you? Or are they too bias?
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Seems similar to the BBC article and no obvious sign of bias, the economy is slightly worse off right now than it would have been, which is to be expected with the uncertainty around Brexit. But it's still significantly better than even the more positive economic predictions made before the vote that said we would go into an immediate recession, etc, which at this point would have put us at about 5% worse off.

It's just interesting that you feel the need to give another source that tries to make the current situation seem as bad as possible when a balanced source has already been provided and it took you 2 seconds to find another seemingly balanced source.

Oh and I'm not calling the Independent biased because of that one article, they were peddling nonsense pretty much every day of the run up to the referendum and since then too so I expect a balanced article about Brexit out of them as much as I do out of the Daily Mail.
 
Spurgy 777
Sorry, I have a life beyond arguing with you on here so if you want to keep going around in circles I'm just going to stop replying as I have better things to do. :lol:
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Weird how that coincided with us getting to the bottom of your problems with which immigrants you don’t like...

The BBC article didn’t make mention of how the drop in the £ was so drastic, that all U.K. households are now actually worse off than prior to the vote or that economy lost around £30 billion.

I consider the bbc to be bias and use that article as evidence. Those couple of paragraphs ignore the real cost and reality of the current economy while noting (numerically) the positives.
Let’s look shall we?

David Cameron, his Chancellor George Osborne and many other senior figures who wanted to stay in the EU predicted an immediate economic crisis if the UK voted to leave and it is true that the pound slumped the day after the referendum - but it has now regained its losses against the dollar, while remaining 15% down against the euro. Predictions of immediate doom were wrong, with the UK economy estimated to have grown 1.8% in 2016, second only to Germany's 1.9% among the world's G7 leading industrialised nations.
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Ok so it is worse, but it’s not a total disaster is it? It dropped a little to the Dollar but it’s coming back and the economy has grown!!

The UK economy continued to grow at almost the same rate in 2017 although there was slower growth, of 0.1% in the first three months of 2018. Inflation rose after June 2016 but has since eased to stand at 2.4%. Unemployment has continued to fall, to stand near a 40-year year low of 4.2%. Annual house price increases have steadily fallen from 9.4% in June 2016 but were still at an inflation-beating 4.2% in the year to March 2018, according to official ONS figures.
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Looks good to me, cheaper housing is good and our inflation is great!

But wait... we’re now worse off?
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...b0a1f834770905#block-5b03f7b6e4b0a1f834770905

Oh it’s ok, it’s just the bias guardian... I mean, there isn’t any framing just reporting, but still...



So, trying to suggest the BBC is unbiased is kinda funny, especially as you call out the Independent... but not because they are wrong, but because of how they say it, which is literally the problem with the BBC link.


Edit: so to recap, you have the BBC article which is overly positive and the Independent article which is more negative... but the BBC is the only legitimate one??
(I used the FT extract to highlight just how bad it is, something the BBC skirts over.)

the FT article
https://www.ft.com/content/dfafc806-762d-11e8-a8c4-408cfba4327c
 
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The BBC neutral?

Given the number of times Farage has been on QT and Andrew Neil's entire background (not a chance him being Chairman of Press Holdings is a conflict in that regard - nope not at all) that's very questionable.

Now the idea that since the Brexit vote the UK hasn't done as bad as (the worse case scenarios) had predicted is, if looked at in isolation, true.

However the UK economy doesn't exist in a vacuum, and in comparison to the rest of the EU and the global economy as a whole it's done poorly.

As such the argument that the UK economy has still suffered as a result of the vote still has validity. Certainly in my own sector it's been felt and is being cited directly as a factor in scaleing back, postponing or cancelling investment and purchase.
 
Don't those doom and gloom predictions refer to when we actually leave the EU though? Right now there's a glimmer of hope that we won't crash out with no deal and no trade agreements with the rest of the world. I wouldn't bet the house on it though. Or rather I wouldn't be if the referendum result had left us any choice.
 
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Scaff
The BBC neutral?

Given the number of times Farage has been on QT and Andrew Neil's entire background (not a chance him being Chairman of Press Holdings is a conflict in that regard - nope not at all) that's very questionable.

Now the idea that since the Brexit vote the UK hasn't done as bad as (the worse case scenarios) had predicted is, if looked at in isolation, true.

However the UK economy doesn't exist in a vacuum, and in comparison to the rest of the EU and the global economy as a whole it's done poorly.

As such the argument that the UK economy has still suffered as a result of the vote still has validity. Certainly in my own sector it's been felt and is being cited directly as a factor in scaleing back, postponing or cancelling investment and purchase.
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According to the BBC the UK economy is about the same as it was two years ago. Predictions of immediate doom were wrong, with the UK economy estimated to have grown 1.8% in 2016, second only to Germany's 1.9% among the world's G7 leading industrialised nations.

The UK economy continued to grow at almost the same rate in 2017 although there was slower growth, of 0.1% in the first three months of 2018.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887
 
winet
According to the BBC the UK economy is about the same as it was two years ago. Predictions of immediate doom were wrong, with the UK economy estimated to have grown 1.8% in 2016, second only to Germany's 1.9% among the world's G7 leading industrialised nations.

The UK economy continued to grow at almost the same rate in 2017 although there was slower growth, of 0.1% in the first three months of 2018.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887
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Wow it's almost as if you didn't read the post you quoted!

winet
Propaganda. The economic numbers are the economic numbers. Journalists always try to undo simple math
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Says the person using journalists to support a claim.

So it's only propaganda when others use it?
 
Scaff
Who made money out of the Brexit vote and some potentially uncomfortable questions for some on the Leave side.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...w-pollsters-helped-hedge-funds-beat-the-crash

(which I'm sure is all just propaganda).
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Great minds and all that, I’ve been reading that all day (while trying to work around it) and was going to post it in here too!

It’s a really amazing piece of work.


Just finished reading it, staggering... this quote;

Odey’s eponymous founder is Crispin Odey, who was both a top fundraiser for Farage and a leading contributor of campaign cash to the pro-Brexit side. His firm made about $300 million from Brexit. “There’s that Italian expression,” Odey boasted to the BBC of his Brexit bounty: “‘Al mattino ha l'oro in bocca’—the morning has gold in its mouth.”
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