Bye Bye Prodrive

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Bernie kills off customer cars idea

The plan to introduce customer cars in Formula 1 next year appears to have been killed off.

The controversial initiative was backed by FIA president Max Mosley, who saw it as a way of safeguarding the future of F1’s smaller teams.

But, speaking to reporters at Interlagos, F1 commercial boss Bernie Ecclestone poured cold water on the idea and signalled that the plans are likely to be dropped.

“It was probably not such a good idea after having a good think about it,” he said.

“It’s not really fair because you can run a customer car much, much cheaper.

“And if you run a good customer car, you push out some of the constructors who shouldn’t be pushed out.”

Citing just such an argument, Williams has recently sought arbitration over Prodrive’s projected entry for the 2008 world championship using customer McLaren-Mercedes.

F1 teams have argued all season about the implications of allowing customer cars into the sport and, specifically, what proportion of F1’s revenues, if any, teams running customer cars should be entitled to.

Asked whether it had been impossible to accommodate customer cars within F1’s legal framework, Ecclestone conceded that it was “not easy”.

And then, on the subject of whether the initiative was dead, Ecclestone added: “Yep, I think so.”

McLaren’s chief operating officer Martin Whitmarsh has admitted to having mixed feelings on the desirability of customer cars.

He said: “I think we have to be very careful because an interesting ingredient of F1, good or bad, has been that to be a competitor you had to be a constructor.

“Formula 1 has to be cautious before it discards that element of its makeup.

“It’s something which has been a differentiator of F1.

“Philosophically, McLaren has consistently voiced its concerns that we might change that definition.

“On the other hand, if you can do it, then we will try to do it and have a go at working with other teams.

“Whether that’s hypocrisy on our part, I don’t know.

“It’s rather like single ECUs [electronic control units] as far as I’m concerned – McLaren was the strongest team against it and the only team to finally vote against it, but if that’s what F1 wants then we will try and play our part.

“We voiced our concerns about customer cars with Max six months ago and said to him, are you really going to do it?

“He said yes, and so on that basis we made it clear we were prepared to work with another team.

“If it doesn’t happen, it doesn’t happen. We are not wedded to the idea.”

Super Aguri chief Daniele Audetto has more strident views on the subject, however, arguing that constructors should not be undercut or the terms under which they compete changed.

He said: “When we signed the Concorde Agreement and when we entered the world championship, it was guaranteed to Aguri Suzuki and to me that we could share identical cars without losing benefits. On this basis, we signed.”

If this is the end of the road for customer cars, it will be viewed as a victory for pukka long-term constructors such as Williams, who feared that such a fundamental change rendered their current business model untenable.

It also places Prodrive’s participation in next year’s championship in serious doubt, with Ecclestone admitting he would prefer to see another manufacturer enter F1 in 2009.

I'm glad the idea is dead/dieing(sp?) , never like the idea and as Ecclestone says I would rather see another manufacturer join
 
Agreed, happy to see this to be honest. IMO if you can't build your own car, you shouldn't be entering Formula 1 where both Constructor and Driver compete in a Championship. And even if they did, I feel the Constructor points should go to the actual supplier that built the damn car.
 
Surely there has to be a better way to get more teams into Formula One? Perhaps a dumb idea from me but can't the FIA help with starting them off, they must have enough spare cash free.
 
I don't know. Surely it seems like a good idea, but (unless they don't) it also seems that STR Ferrari and Scuderia Toro Rosso use customer Ferraris. Do they?

If so, who's going to fill the gap left?

Anyways, it doesn't feel as right as it should, as it narrows the scope of entries and 'accessibility' of F1 from miniscule to microscopic. Tuning techniques could also come into play, so you can have two of the same cars, but with differing settings. If not, if customer teams still have a chance, there should at least be a rule regarding different setups for the cars in question, with the works team in favour of so doing.

Then again, F1's logic does not follow sports-car/prototype racing...
 
FLK
Surely there has to be a better way to get more teams into Formula One? Perhaps a dumb idea from me but can't the FIA help with starting them off, they must have enough spare cash free.

Or they could, you know, lower prices and shrink just a bit as a governing body.
 
Damn you Bernie Ecclestone! :grumpy:

Well i have mixed feelings about this. I mean its good because then only those teams that were backed up by a different constructors would make the lineup more interesting. Like to see Ford/Jaguar, Peugeot, Cosworth, and maybe Lotus or Porsche supplying engines/parts to the other teams that could afford it. For example: Penske Racing Porsche, Jordan Ford, Minardi Cosworth, etc. Like the old teams could find some financial backup and get back into F1 or some rich team buying some engineers or teams that have been in F1 before. Sounds great and all, but then teams that strives on customer cars would then have to leave. Teams such as RBR Renault, STR Ferrari, Williams Toyota, Super Aguri Honda and Spyker Ferrari would either have to pull out of F1 or find other engine/parts suppliers.

Then i totally disagree with the statement because then only the rich would have a chance of racing. But then the rich teams would just waste money developing a car that is just be battling in the midfield or struggle at the back. (take note: Toyota, Honda) For the lesser financial backed teams would just do great with the limited supplies that they have. Well give Williams and Super Aguri as an example. They both are a B-Spec team to their bigger works team (Toyota and Honda respectively) but they did outperform their A-spec teams for most part of the season. Super Aguri did came out from nowhere to be the mid running teams and even challenging the other better teams out there. Williams did have an awful few seasons when they parted ways with BMW, but now they start to build their team up again thanks the the customer car of Toyota. If it weren't for customer cars, there would be many good teams that would not make it this season. It whats makes the smaller teams work harder to be where they are, we could really see how hard those teams try to make the car go faster with such a tight budget. Its also interesting for the fans supporting and cheering on the smaller teams (like the Super Aguri in Fuji)

Well i hope i didn't make too much nonsense here. Just give my opinion on the whole situation. Its really sad if Prodrive couldn't make it for next season. I was really hoping how good the team would have perform. David Richards did a great job managing BAR back in the day (well, not so good actually. It was when Honda helped the team that they started to improve :indiff:) as well as seeing Gary Paffett and Pedro De La Rosa race (although not confirmed) Its a shame really..... :indiff:
 
I´m glad this happened. I never liked the idea either. But hoping for a new manufacturer? Folly if you ask me. At least as a new team alltogether. Super Aguri seem to be on the quitting side of things because of this, so maybe someone will buy them out. And I believe Prodrive will pull the plug on their F1 dreams and go for something else instead (FIA GT, ALMS or LMS?).
 
Damn you Bernie Ecclestone! :grumpy:

Well i have mixed feelings about this. I mean its good because then only those teams that were backed up by a different constructors would make the lineup more interesting. Like to see Ford/Jaguar, Peugeot, Cosworth, and maybe Lotus or Porsche supplying engines/parts to the other teams that could afford it. For example: Penske Racing Porsche, Jordan Ford, Minardi Cosworth, etc. Like the old teams could find some financial backup and get back into F1 or some rich team buying some engineers or teams that have been in F1 before. Sounds great and all, but then teams that strives on customer cars would then have to leave. Teams such as RBR Renault, STR Ferrari, Williams Toyota, Super Aguri Honda and Spyker Ferrari would either have to pull out of F1 or find other engine/parts suppliers.

Then i totally disagree with the statement because then only the rich would have a chance of racing. But then the rich teams would just waste money developing a car that is just be battling in the midfield or struggle at the back. (take note: Toyota, Honda) For the lesser financial backed teams would just do great with the limited supplies that they have. Well give Williams and Super Aguri as an example. They both are a B-Spec team to their bigger works team (Toyota and Honda respectively) but they did outperform their A-spec teams for most part of the season. Super Aguri did came out from nowhere to be the mid running teams and even challenging the other better teams out there. Williams did have an awful few seasons when they parted ways with BMW, but now they start to build their team up again thanks the the customer car of Toyota. If it weren't for customer cars, there would be many good teams that would not make it this season. It whats makes the smaller teams work harder to be where they are, we could really see how hard those teams try to make the car go faster with such a tight budget. Its also interesting for the fans supporting and cheering on the smaller teams (like the Super Aguri in Fuji)

Well i hope i didn't make too much nonsense here. Just give my opinion on the whole situation. Its really sad if Prodrive couldn't make it for next season. I was really hoping how good the team would have perform. David Richards did a great job managing BAR back in the day (well, not so good actually. It was when Honda helped the team that they started to improve :indiff:) as well as seeing Gary Paffett and Pedro De La Rosa race (although not confirmed) Its a shame really..... :indiff:

Sorry for bursting your bubble , but Williams isn't using a customer car they are only using Toyota engine , as Far as Torro Rosso they aren't using a Ferrari customer car (for the post that said they are) they are using the RB3; and super Aguri is using last years Honda car I think.
 
What's the bet Mr. E goes ahead and sues Prodrive for not making the grid next year? There was talk of a Grand Prix in South Korea a few years ago and the deal was signed, but when nothing came of it, Ecclestone sued the pants off the organisers. he's likely to do something similar to Prodrive for not fielding a team in 2008.
 
That was kinda obvious. And it's for the good of the sport.



mnm_bmx, remember: Customer engines are allowed for ages. And they will keep being.
 
Okay now, i thought the "customer car" thing was including both the engine and the chassis right? But don't you think that if the same engine supplied to other teams, it is still considered a "customer car/engine"? Or was it only the chassis?

Well now i'm really confused :confused:

Edit: Okay fine. maybe i just went a little too far with the statement above. I'm really sorry :nervous:
 
Ok, look.

There's the customer-car package. Chassis, at times with the engine. 100% identical to the donor. Then the engine, on a privately-developed chassis.

Really, if the car was identical, don't you think Toro Rosso and Spyker would've won at least two-three races?
 
well if the idea was to make the F1 series more compeditive would be great...go Lewis Hamliton and Mark Webber
 
If making it competitive includes making identical cars, then no, it wouldn't be great. It would be A1GP.

Competitiveness will be achieved when they change the cars, not the rules regarding cars. 22 McLarens racing will be far more boring than the current 22 different cars. A McLaren produces more downforce, and is harder to overtake.
 
The way the customer engines work, is they use this loophole where like say how Williams and Toyota both use the same engines right. What Toyota does is have a so-called "separate" entity called Toyota Engines Inc. or something like that, and it just so happens both Toyota and Williams buy engines from "Toyota Engines Inc.". Or at least that's my understanding anyway.
 
The way the customer engines work, is they use this loophole where like say how Williams and Toyota both use the same engines right. What Toyota does is have a so-called "separate" entity called Toyota Engines Inc. or something like that, and it just so happens both Toyota and Williams buy engines from "Toyota Engines Inc.". Or at least that's my understanding anyway.

I thought customer engines were supported by the FIA because it cuts costs. You can't expect Super Aguri to invent their own engines.
 
They're officially allowed, no loopholes involved.

Red Bull officially purchased Renault engines (and Ferrari ones for STR). Williams officially uses the Toyota package (with gearbox). As does Aguri with Honda's, and Spyker with Ferrari.
 
It's funny to see the Williams perform much much better than Toyota. In a way, even though they have a lot of money, they obviously can't attract well skilled drivers due to the performance of their car.
 
The way the customer engines work, is they use this loophole where like say how Williams and Toyota both use the same engines right. What Toyota does is have a so-called "separate" entity called Toyota Engines Inc. or something like that, and it just so happens both Toyota and Williams buy engines from "Toyota Engines Inc.". Or at least that's my understanding anyway.


what your refering too is how redbull got RBR and STR using the same RB3 chasis , since its not desgined by either , but rather desgined by RedBull Technology or something. At least thats what I read before the start of the season
 
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